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RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/18/2008 7:35:23 AM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

seeks
I say again that if China has swept away those who constructed and probably wish to re introduce a slave society then what they, the Chinese, have done is not totally wrong.


quote:

celticlord
In effect, you are saying it is permissible for one people to impose their will on another, so long as the will that is imposed conforms to Western (sic ) ideology.

If you wish to argue that the US government has chosen the wrong battles, I am likely to agree with you in at least some instances, but that does not undermine the propriety of making the choice.


Celtic:
Can you not see the intrinsic contradiction present  in your  reply?
The US when interfering is only being "realistic" or calculating its position vis a vis its Cold War opponent the Soviet Union and by your own admission some "interferences " will be valid.I actually agree with that

Why is it then to be condemned when  China or even the old Soviet Union for that matter  behave in exactly the same way ?
Are you allowing your admiration for the  Dalai Lama to cloud your judgement ?

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RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/18/2008 7:36:01 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moloch

I am talking about military and communications technology, which yes they are stealing pretty blatantly.
Espionage....



All countries are involved in espionage or should I say, they are only involved in espionage when they are caught.

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RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/18/2008 7:39:28 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

Why is it then to be condemned when China or even the old Soviet Union for that matter behave in exactly the same way ?


The United States invaded Iraq.  That was wrong.  Wrong decision and at the wrong time and for the wrong reasons.  "Regime change" is bullshit.

I've never argued otherwise.  And that is the only scenario that is approximately analogous to China's occupation of Tibet. 


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RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/18/2008 7:40:46 AM   
Moloch


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moloch

I am talking about military and communications technology, which yes they are stealing pretty blatantly.
Espionage....



All countries are involved in espionage or should I say, they are only involved in espionage when they are caught.


China is very blatant about it. During clinton administration a chinese fighter struck a US communications plane which was had to do an emergency landing. The chinese compleltey stripped the plane of all of its electronics as soon as it landed. Before Chine started stealing US military designs the chinese were stealing Soviet military technology. Chine has a very strong agenda, that is what bothers me.

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RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/18/2008 7:44:21 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

The United States invaded Iraq.  That was wrong.  Wrong decision and at the wrong time and for the wrong reasons.  "Regime change" is bullshit.

I've never argued otherwise.  And that is the only scenario that is approximately analogous to China's occupation of Tibet. 



That's  USA 1 v China 1.

It doesn't make China any worse than the USA, just makes both as bad as each other....

...but that is the consequence of real politik.

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RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/18/2008 7:47:20 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moloch

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moloch

I am talking about military and communications technology, which yes they are stealing pretty blatantly.
Espionage....



All countries are involved in espionage or should I say, they are only involved in espionage when they are caught.


China is very blatant about it. During clinton administration a chinese fighter struck a US communications plane which was had to do an emergency landing. The chinese compleltey stripped the plane of all of its electronics as soon as it landed. Before Chine started stealing US military designs the chinese were stealing Soviet military technology. Chine has a very strong agenda, that is what bothers me.



I assume the plane was in Chinese territory? my guess is that the US would ahve done the same the other way round. That's the world we live in, we might not like it but China et al are no worse than the west when it comes to international politics. I wish I could say the west holds the moral high ground and has a surplus of integrity but it doesn't.

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RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/18/2008 7:51:22 AM   
seeksfemslave


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I point out that Celticlord is applying double standards over the Tibet question. He responds.....
quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
The United States invaded Iraq.  That was wrong.  Wrong decision and at the wrong time and for the wrong reasons.  "Regime change" is bullshit.
I've never argued otherwise.  And that is the only scenario that is approximately analogous to China's occupation of Tibet. 

VietNam springs immediately to my mind.
I post as one who still supports the Iraqui incursion. Its just a shame the ostensible reason couldn't be made to stick.ie WMD.
The real reason was to protect Israel. IMO.

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RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/18/2008 9:49:14 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

I point out that Celticlord is applying double standards over the Tibet question. He responds.....
quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
The United States invaded Iraq.  That was wrong.  Wrong decision and at the wrong time and for the wrong reasons.  "Regime change" is bullshit.
I've never argued otherwise.  And that is the only scenario that is approximately analogous to China's occupation of Tibet. 

VietNam springs immediately to my mind.
I post as one who still supports the Iraqui incursion. Its just a shame the ostensible reason couldn't be made to stick.ie WMD.
The real reason was to protect Israel. IMO.


Vietnam was a completely different set of dynamics.  That was a proxy war between Cold War superpowers.  At no time during the Vietnam conflict did the US impose political or cultural soveriegnty over the Vietnamese.

But, to reiterate, none of this alters the reality of Chinese oppression of the Tibetan people.  The upcoming Olympic games create a natural window of opportunity to bring visibility to that, and to perhaps bring a little international pressure on Beijing to change course.  Oppression is wrong in every state and in every time; circumstances are such that this is the time to speak out against Chinese oppression.


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RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/18/2008 9:53:32 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

It doesn't make China any worse than the USA, just makes both as bad as each other....

...but that is the consequence of real politik.


In a geopolitical sense, it would be foolhardy for the US government to demonize the Chinese.  They are a coming superpower, and therefore a natural opponent of the United States in the international political arena.  They would be this regardless of their political structure.

Government-to-government, yes, Beijing stands on a par with Washington, DC. 

Citizen-to-citizen, person-to-person, we are at liberty to speak out against the injustices of both Beijing and Washington.


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RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/18/2008 10:49:02 AM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

CelticLord
Vietnam was a completely different (to Tibet)  set of dynamics.  That was a proxy war between Cold War superpowers.
I would have to remind you that the US first became involved in VietNam after the French were defeated at Dien Bien Phu

quote:

 At no time during the Vietnam conflict did the US impose political or cultural sovereignty over the Vietnamese.
That is precisely what the US attempted by supporting the French.
The reason they didn't succeed was that  the Vietnamese made the cost to the US too high and first the students and then the general public began to realise what was being done and what it was costing in lives, especially Vietnamese.

It was for domestic ie US public consumption that the intervention was presented as a Cold War  struggle.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 3/18/2008 10:53:17 AM >

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RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/18/2008 10:56:44 AM   
meatcleaver


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As Chomsky points out “Propaganda is to a democracy what the bludgeon is to a totalitarian state.” In the general sense we might be nominally free in the west but most of us choose to believe the illusion we are sold by the powers that be. I wonder if we really tested our freedom, used that freedom to question what is done in our name, if we would really be free as we claim we are. I'm not sure we would be. We claim to live in a democracy but we all know that if we voted against the interests of the powerful in our society(as in choose an economic system that really changed our society's power structure), the troops would be on the street within 24 hours. Look at Chile or anywhere else that has the audacity to vote in governments the powers that be don't like. The west wouldn't even talk to Hamas. The west doesn't like democracy when the vote doesn't go its way. We can carry on with the hot air in belief we are free, we are free as long as we  stay within certain perameters.

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RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/18/2008 11:04:38 AM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

CelticLord
But, to reiterate, none of this alters the reality of Chinese oppression of the Tibetan people.

If they are no longer serfs how are they being oppressed. Is not being a second class citizen better than being a serf ?
quote:

  Oppression is wrong in every state and in every time; circumstances are such that this is the time to speak out against Chinese oppression.

You said in an earlier post that you did not know of any great movement emanating for freedom from within Tibet and so by implication defending the oppression under which the Tibetans lived.
and in post 135 you said
quote:

The Tibetans are....Tibetan.  Their culture is not my culture, nor would I wish to live as a Tibetan.  I do, however, desire that Tibetans be allowed to live as Tibetans.
ie as serfs. 

By the way how can such a "wonderful" spiritual leader as the Dalai Lama have remained indifferent to the condition of the people in Tibet ? 

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 3/18/2008 11:14:49 AM >

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RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/18/2008 11:29:03 AM   
philosophy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

If they are no longer serfs how are they being oppressed. Is not being a second class citizen better than being a serf ?


...are you serious? A second class citizen, by definition, is being oppressed. Surely even you can't fail to see that?

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RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/18/2008 11:56:20 AM   
luckydog1


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Lets take a step into reality here.  The Dali llama, is not the political head of Tibet.  Nor is he seeking to re-asert the ancient power of the Llama fuedal system.  It is literally a constitutional monarchy. 

"Question: Will you be the last Dalai Lama? Answer: Whether the institution of the Dalai Lama remains or not depends entirely on the wishes of the Tibetan people. It is for them to decide. I made this clear as early as in 1969. Even in 1963, after four years in exile, we made a draft constitution for a future Tibet which is based on the democratic system. The constitution clearly mentions that the power of the Dalai Lama can be removed by a two-thirds majority vote of the members of the Assembly. At the present moment, the Dalai Lama’s institution is useful to the Tibetan culture and the Tibetan people. Thus, if I were to die today, I think the Tibetan people would choose to have another Dalai Lama. In the future, if the Dalai Lama’s institution is no longer relevant or useful and our present situation changes, then the Dalai Lama’s institution will cease to exist.Personally, I feel the institution of the Dalai Lama has served its purpose. More recently, since 2001 we now have a democratically elected head of our administration, the Kalon Tripa. The Kalon Tripa runs the daily affairs of our administration and is in charge of our political establishment. Half jokingly and half seriously, I state that I am now in semi-retirement." http://www.dalailama.com/page.54.htm The Tibetian movement is not attempting to re-instate the ancient system.  They are in fact not even arguing for independance, but simply to have a meaningfull semi autonomy under Chinese rule, with rights and dignity for the Tibetian people.  Since the 60s they have been working for a Democratic system for Tibet.  There is a reason that Tibet stayed locked in time, not simply due to the evil nature of the Llamas. Its hard to see how anyone deliberatly distorting the goal of the Tibetian movement is engaging in anything but hate.  Same goes for  pretending that the Dali Llama is lazy and does not work OF course Bhuddism teaches that sex for fun is less than good, all pleasure is to be shunned as it can not be satisfyied, and leaves you wanting more, which causes suffering....

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RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/18/2008 12:05:12 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

quote:

CelticLord
But, to reiterate, none of this alters the reality of Chinese oppression of the Tibetan people.

If they are no longer serfs how are they being oppressed. Is not being a second class citizen better than being a serf ?
quote:

  Oppression is wrong in every state and in every time; circumstances are such that this is the time to speak out against Chinese oppression.

You said in an earlier post that you did not know of any great movement emanating for freedom from within Tibet and so by implication defending the oppression under which the Tibetans lived.
and in post 135 you said
quote:

The Tibetans are....Tibetan.  Their culture is not my culture, nor would I wish to live as a Tibetan.  I do, however, desire that Tibetans be allowed to live as Tibetans.
ie as serfs. 

By the way how can such a "wonderful" spiritual leader as the Dalai Lama have remained indifferent to the condition of the people in Tibet ? 


A wonderful circular argument, and wholly, absolutely ludicrous.

Tibetans were not fleeing Tibet prior to the Chinese invasion.  There were no political prisoners or other prisoners of conscience in Tibet so far as I am aware.  Thus the claim of "oppression" prior to the Chinese invasion is specious at best.

Acknowledging the imperfections of Tibetan government for the moment, no less a spokesman on human liberty than Thomas Jefferson observed that men "...are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed."  If the Tibetans deemed the Dalai Lama's ruleship "sufferable", who is anyone to claim they were oppressed?

If the Tibetans desire democratic rule, let the Tibetans pursue democratic rule--as a free people.  If the Tibetans desire the continued leadership of HH The Dalai Lama, let them have such leadership--as a free people.  Good or bad, the moral quality of Tibetan government prior to the Chinese invasion simply has no bearing on the immorality of that invasion.  That is the unalterable order of things.

The claim the Dalai Lama is indifferent is patently absurd.  His own public statements on the state of affairs in Tibet are more than adequate to totally refute and reject this assertion.  In that regard, you stand quite corrected.


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RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/18/2008 12:31:42 PM   
meatcleaver


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Point to lucky- Maybe I'm being a little conceited but just in case you are replying to this in my post 'the west wouldn't even talk to Hamas.'  I know the old argument as to why should someone want to negotiate with someone who wants their destruction. When Hamas was elected it wanted to negotiate with Israel even if it wouldn't formally recognize Israel. Israel were wanting an end negotiated position from Hamas before any negotiations would begin. A classic way of not being willing to negotiate and blaming the other side. However, my concern is the hypocrisy of the west in choosing to talk to elected governments or representives it likes and not talking to those it doesn't like. The US and most western states refuse to talk to Hamas because they claim they are terrorists while wanting the destruction of Israel but Britain talked to the IRA that very nearly wiped out the British government andthe US positively encouraged Britain to talk to the terrorists. The same with Spain in talking to ETA. I'm not concerned with Israel in this post but the hypocrisy of the west and it only talking to elected bodies it likes which illustrates how weak the west's commitment to democracy is.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 3/18/2008 12:35:01 PM >


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RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/18/2008 1:19:17 PM   
Moloch


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I assume the plane was in Chinese territory? my guess is that the US would ahve done the same the other way round. That's the world we live in, we might not like it but China et al are no worse than the west when it comes to international politics. I wish I could say the west holds the moral high ground and has a surplus of integrity but it doesn't.


Nope the Plane was in international territory.

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RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/18/2008 1:23:24 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Moloch

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I assume the plane was in Chinese territory? my guess is that the US would ahve done the same the other way round. That's the world we live in, we might not like it but China et al are no worse than the west when it comes to international politics. I wish I could say the west holds the moral high ground and has a surplus of integrity but it doesn't.


Nope the Plane was in international territory.



Then it was anyones for the taking if it was unmanned.

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RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/18/2008 1:45:47 PM   
cjan


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Thought some of y'all might be interested in what the DL had to say according to a story in today's New York Times. 


quote:

 He said he remained committed to only nonviolent agitation and greater autonomy for Tibetans, not independence. He condemned the burning of Chinese flags and attacks on Chinese property and called violence “suicidal” for the Tibetan cause.In a clear effort to quickly seize the higher moral ground and at the same time poke at China’s important aspirations, he complimented Beijing for having met three out of four conditions to be a “superpower” — he acknowledged it has the world’s largest population, military prowess, and a fast-developing economy.“Fourth, moral authority, that’s lacking,” he said, and for the second time in two days he accused Chinese officials of a “rule of terror” in Tibet, the formerly Himalayan kingdom he fled for exile in India 49 years ago.The Dalai Lama’s remarks to reporters on Tuesday, here in the seat of the Tibetan exile movement, also revealed that he has been unnerved by the violence across the border in Tibet and by the increasingly radical calls from Tibetan exiles in this country. The 72-year-old spiritual leader of Lama Buddhism said he would step down from his political post if things “get out of control.”He said he planned to meet Wednesday with those who have vowed to march 900 miles from here to Lhasa, the Tibetan capital, and convey his “reservations” about their effort. The march has been a source of embarrassment to New Delhi. The first batch of marchers that set off from here last week was arrested by Indian police; the second batch was allowed to continue, but they are still well inside Indian territory. The Dalai Lama chided their ambitions. “On border, some clash with Chinese soldiers, what use that?” he said.He acknowledged there was growing frustration and a feeling that his “Middle Way” approach — no independence for Tibet but a large degree of autonomy — had achieved no concrete gains. But but dismissed talk of any other path as impractical.“Last few days I had a sort of feeling, a tiger, of a young deer in a tiger’s hand,” he said, in the most intimate confession during the winding, two-hour long exchange. “Deer really can fight the tiger? Can express. But actual fight? Our only weapon, only strength is justice, truth. But effect of truth, justice sometimes takes longer time. Weapons power is immediately there.”No sooner had he finished speaking that protesters outside the gate of his compound torched a Chinese flag, shouting “Hu Jintao Murdabad,” which in Hindi is literally “death to Hu Jintao,” the Chinese president. Two hours later, they burned more Chinese flags. Earlier, monks chanted prayers and walked in thick columns through the hills. Gory photographs were pasted across town, of Tibetans allegedly shot and killed by Chinese forces.The Dalai Lama said he remained open to resuming peace talks with Chinese officials, and in an impish reference to the criticisms by Chinese leaders, said a solution could be reached swiftly if there were “mutual respect” and a willingness to take Tibetan grievances seriously.There was no direct criticism of either Mr. Hu or China’s Premier Wen Jiabao, only of local officials whom the Dalai Lama accused of creating “artificial facts.” “Prime Minister,” he said, addressing Mr. Wen, “Come here and investigate thoroughly.”He went on: “Since we are not seeking independence, actually we are helping the Chinese government to build harmonious society, happy society and Tibet remain within the People’s Republic of China, happily. I am helping them, if they look at the situation calmly. But so far it’s full of suspicion, so therefore they cannot see reality.”


< Message edited by cjan -- 3/18/2008 1:48:38 PM >

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RE: FREE TIBET NOW!!!!! - 3/18/2008 2:08:03 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: Moloch

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

I assume the plane was in Chinese territory? my guess is that the US would ahve done the same the other way round. That's the world we live in, we might not like it but China et al are no worse than the west when it comes to international politics. I wish I could say the west holds the moral high ground and has a surplus of integrity but it doesn't.


Nope the Plane was in international territory.



Then it was anyones for the taking if it was unmanned.


I believe this references the P3 Orion that was forced down by the Chinese some years back.  It was not an unmanned craft.


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