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RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/23/2008 9:19:26 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		If you're not cribbing your stuff from creationist sources why are all your claims so easy to find in this index to creationist claims:
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/ ?

Taking Archy your it's a bird claim is:
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC214_1_1.html
Briefly Archy has a long bony tail, the fingers are unfused and functional as is the wrist joint, and jaws with teeth not a bill, ever seen a bird with a long bony tail? How about one with teeth? How about a bird with hands able to grasp? Ultimately it has many more characters not known in birds but present in other dinosaurs. For in an depth treatment of this topic:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/archaeopteryx/info.html

Now for 'Archy is a fake', why lookie there:
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC351.html
There are 7 or 8 specimens found at various times between 1855 and 1995. As the above articles indicate the older specimens include microscopic details a forger could not have known should be present and so would have not even tried to include in a forgery even if the technology was available which it wasn't. Multiple published articles refute the hoax claim written by qualified specialists who examined the BM specimen as well as the others.

There are no fossils with feathers older than Archy. If you think otherwise identify the fossil. There are birdlike dinosaurs older than archy, and they may have had feathers, we don't know, but they don't show any bird characters that aren't also present in Archy.

Flight evolved many times. In vertabrates alone we have birds, bats and the extinct pterosaurs. There are also mammals, amphibians and reptiles that use gliding to extend jumps. But none of these groups of organisms use precisley the same method of flying. Why would a designer keep designing the same thing only different?

Also this part:
quote:

If the Delusion is true than ALL of the underlying genetic tendencies occured at a time about which there is absolutely no knowledge. I have mentioned this before but I expect you didnt get it. 

is unclear at best. What do you mean by 'genetic tendencies'? If you described it before I missed it.

Also once again you say science cannot demonstrate species  A turning into species B. I'll once again point you to a list of just that:
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html
You asked I delivered. And lets not have any more of the 'it's still the same species' stuff I already showed you where that was incorrect.

If any interested bystanders are still reading along doesn't it seem odd that every claim he makes I can respond to and can usually provide a link to articles written by specialists dealing with those claims? Have you noticed the talkorigins.ord domain? A website dedicated to the teaching of real science and the debunking of creationism. Now why would all of Seeks claims already be refuted by an anti creationist website if he isn't a creationist and isn't cribbing arguments from some creationist website?

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 181
RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/23/2008 9:24:51 PM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: luckydog1
Or are you just an online sadist--- non consensually mind fucking Domken, for shits and giggles?

He's not bothering me. He's actually annoying my pet. We have an ongoing bet that he'll post at least one claim I can find directly in the index to creationist claims I linked to above every time he responds to my posts. I'm quite drained if you get my drift. .

(in reply to luckydog1)
Profile   Post #: 182
RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/24/2008 2:22:46 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Joe Stalin          Bourgois intellectual you are a criminal because you are a lapdog capitalist lackey.
Joe McCarthy   Sir, you are wrong , why, because you are a Communist thats why.
PC thinker        Sir, you are racist because  you disagree with PC revisionist thinking on racial matters
DomKen          Seeks is wrong because I can find similar views to his on creationist web sites.

See the similarities ?
Lets not argue the issue lets proceed by assertion, suspension of disbelief and guilt by association.
Works every time he he he he he he

Now a visual check extracted from an anti creationist source: 
http://www.swarthmore.edu/NatSci/cpurrin1/textbookdisclaimers/wackononsense.pdf

Disinterested viewers take a look at the proof of the underlying tenets of the Delusion by looking at the pictures of the Finches near the top of link provided by HippieKinkster.
It is on those diffences that the Darwin Delusion was born.
A bird that looks like a bird and still is a bird but with slightly different physical characteristics.
From that it follows does it not that the bird will eventually change into ...well who knows 'cos I dont.
or 
inanimate chemicals will eventually organise themselves into the wonder that is man  exemplified by that master regurgitator of clapped out tautology  DomKen. he he he he he

Same argument applies to the skulls a bit further down.
Have a go. Dont need to read much. Just look at the pictures.




< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 3/24/2008 2:48:44 AM >

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 183
RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/24/2008 3:45:01 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline 		You are in continual denial, seeks.
 
When you say: "A fish is a fish", you indicate that you are only interested in macroevolution, i.e. bacteria evolving into eukaryotic cells (those have been documented), a unicellular organism evolving into a multicellular organism (those have been documented), organisms without vertebrae turning into fishes (those have been documented), fishes turning into amphibians (those have been documented), amphibians turning into reptiles (those have been documented), reptiles turning into dinosaurs (those have been documented) and mammals (those have been documented), dinosaurs turning into birds (those have been documented).
 
Such macroevolution has occurred say about a dozen times during the past four billion years. Usually after some cataclysmic event that opened up already existing niches.
 
The Galapagos islands made Darwin aware that it is the environment that determines the course of evolution - i.e. by natural selection for such an environment.
 
A mammal is just a mammal, seeks? Pigs and lions, both being mammals, are no evidence of evolution occurring, because if it did one of them would be not a mammal?

< Message edited by Rule -- 3/24/2008 3:46:45 AM >

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 184
RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/24/2008 5:52:43 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Sorry Seeks, but DK is refuting your arguments first, then asking whether youre getting them from some creationist source (which you still havent answered by the way - nor have you advanced any competing explanations for debate). His posts are therefore not ad hominem as you claim, and in fact his question as regards your source may be from the same grounds as I keep enquiring as to what counter argument you propose. Right now, your contributions are more along the lines of the MP sketch "is this the right room for an argument?".

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 185
RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/24/2008 7:48:00 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		Finches are still finches:
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB901_3.html

The complaint about the hominid skulls is too vague to know what he's claiming. Although it be might that the hominds represented by those skulls are either fully ape or fully human:
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC050.html

Busy work day so for today expect short answers. If someone wants more detail on a aspecific subject post saying so and I'll respond tonight.

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 186
RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/24/2008 8:03:09 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Its a pity these posts have to be so long I expect that reduces the likelyhood that they will be read
 
DomKen is not refuting my arguments, he posting alternative conjectural speculation.
These speculations are presented as proven facts in schools.
Trying to prove propostion A false is a legitimate self contained course of action.
It is not necessary to propose an alternative truth.

Archaeoraptor, the fraud
quote:

The idea of feathered dinosaurs and the theropod origin of birds is being actively promulgated by a cadre of zealous scientists acting in concert with certain editors at Nature and National Geographic who themselves have become outspoken and highly biased proselytizers of the faith. Truth and careful scientific weighing of evidence have been among the first casualties in their program, which is now fast becoming one of the grander scientific hoaxes of our age---the paleontological equivalent of cold fusion. If Sloan’s article is not the crescendo of this fantasia, it is difficult to imagine to what heights it can next be taken. .. Storrs L. Olson, Smithsonian

Mr Olsen is or was
Curator of Birds
National Museum of Natural History
Smithsonian Institution
Washington, DC 20560
The point of his comment was that the popular scientific press wanted the fraudulent fossil to be valid so they took the necessary steps to publicise it as true, and came a cropper.

What happened next is illuminating, two replacement fossils were "found"  with feathers and presented so as to maintain the integrity of the Dinosaur-Bird evolutionary path.
It turned out that neither fossil showed feathers but "something" some experts thought could be feathers.
See what I'm getting at ?

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 187
RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/24/2008 8:50:35 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		High level intellect and evolution.
The Delusion says that mutations naturally occur and if a positive consequence emerges say  every zillionth mutation such beneficial positives are reinforced due to environmental pressures.
Thus the ongoing evolutionary process has brought to us where we are today.

Note that to produce the eye a further zillion squared of  such zillion changes need to occur with no intermediate benefit. When you consider all of the species that have ever lived then the statistical improbabilty is such that it is more likely that someone could climb Mt Everest wearing only his Jockey shorts

How about intellect.?
The mental capacity required to hunt more successfully certainly fits into the above.

The ability to solve Fermat's last theorem or write say Shakespeare's plays or Beethovan's music ?
Does that fit ? I dont think so, do you ?

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 3/24/2008 9:03:05 AM >

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 188
RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/24/2008 9:00:27 AM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		I just heard the keyboard clatter as DomKen rushes hot foot to a web site to find out what is the Delusion's explanation for the Brain power possessed by people like Rule he he he he he

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 189
RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/24/2008 9:02:08 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		Yes, Archaeoraptor was a fake:
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC352.html

Significantly more than two feathered dinosaurs have been found:
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC214.html

So why the switch from the long and thoroughly documented reptile-mammal transition to the still very dynamic dino-bird transition? Creationist websites avoid the reptile mammal series since it is so complete and irrefutable. Dino to bird discoveries have been occuring in the last 20 years or so and there are still plenty of unknowns and gaps they can point to.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 190
RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/24/2008 9:10:24 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline 		Brainpower Seeks?

A brain is only as useful as the mind which dwells therein, and the information supplied to that mind - which is an interesting relationship in itself as the information develops the mind to be able to process and manipulate the information. I promise you, Shakespeare, Beethoven, Fermat and even Rule couldnt do much more than cry, suck and fill nappies when they were born. And absent the requisite information supplied to them as they grew up, any possible latent talents would have remained unrealised.

But I so wish you would develop your points to say what you really mean.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 191
RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/24/2008 9:12:25 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline 		Eyes do not have to be as complex as the human eye to be useful:
http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CB/CB921_1.html

Intelligence is too complicated for a short answer so that will have to wait for tonight.

(in reply to DomKen)
Profile   Post #: 192
RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/24/2008 9:25:44 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Note that to produce the eye a further zillion squared of  such zillion changes need to occur with no intermediate benefit.
Deleterious mutations are of no consequence as they are removed by the algorithms of evolution. There will be neutral mutations without intermediate benefit and there will also be strongly selected for mutations that are beneficial, even if initially only in the slightest degree. Evolving an eye is a lot simpler than you suspect, seeks. But I have elaborated on that before in another thread.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
I just heard the keyboard clatter as DomKen rushes hot foot to a web site to find out what is the Delusion's explanation for the Brain power possessed by people like Rule he he he he he
The conformation of my mind has been acquired by Divine intervention - and to achieve that necessarily I had to die when a child. A prerequisite for this transformation is that one must have a very unique conformation of the mind already; only a few do, I surmise.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 193
RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/24/2008 12:00:44 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Infamy Infamy...you've all got it in for me.

I think I was speaking of the Oirish Beethovan
I could see I had spelt it wrong but I couldn't work out how.

LadyE: do you seriously expect insignificant little me to have a coherent explanation for the origin of things.
I do note a slight difficulty here tho'
quote:

And absent the requisite information supplied to them as they grew up, any possible latent talents would have remained unrealised.
Surely if this were true then only that knowledge which had been taught would be available.
Who then was the first to gain/impart knowledge and where did it come from ? 

With regard to high level intellect surely it's obvious; it evolved so that the theory of evolution could be worked out.


< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 3/24/2008 12:06:09 PM >

(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 194
RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/24/2008 1:09:57 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline
quote:

Darwin invoked the imperfection of the fossil record to explain away apparent periods of dramatic change in geologic history and sought to deny the reality of a handful of global mass extinctions that were followed by the “instantaneous” (in the geological sense) appearance of a suite of new species, which a literal reading of the fossil record suggested.

Does this quote not reveal a problem?
If the basis of the Delusion is true ie slow latent changes due to mutation awaiting the environment so that something new may blossom, then it seems that only those species survived the mass extinction that were potentially able to benefit from the conditions post catastrophe. Bit of a coincidence ?
if it is not true then
Evolution must have speeded up 'cos new species do emerge in short time scales after mass extinctions. 
Odd or what.?

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 195
RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/24/2008 1:22:46 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
I do note a slight difficulty here tho'
quote:

And absent the requisite information supplied to them as they grew up, any possible latent talents would have remained unrealised.
Surely if this were true then only that knowledge which had been taught would be available.
Who then was the first to gain/impart knowledge and where did it come from ? 



Please dont be so deliberately obtuse.

Knowledge is a cumulative thing passed down through our cultures, first orally and then latterly in writing, added to as more is discovered and altered as needed should prior knowledge be found wanting.

I suppose next you will enquire as to how "all of this" knowledge we have today can possibly have been accumulated and refined and reject my explanation as a delusion since it doesnt cover every last detail of the process and history of the accumulation, refinement and transmission down the generations.

Which you must, because this process is one of evolution, which of course you hold to be a false premise.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 196
RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/24/2008 1:28:45 PM   
luckydog1


Posts: 2736
Joined: 1/16/2006
Status: offline 		"If the basis of the Delusion is true ie slow latent changes due to mutation awaiting the environment so that something new may blossom, then it seems that only those species survived the mass extinction that were potentially able to benefit from the conditions post catastrophe. Bit of a coincidence ? "

It's no more a coincidence, than the fact that despite the astronomical odds against it, you were born you instead of someone else.   Think about it, over 9,000,000,000 to 1 that you would be someone else, but you are indeed you.

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 197
RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/24/2008 1:51:55 PM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
If the basis of the Delusion is true ie slow latent changes due to mutation awaiting the environment so that something new may blossom, then it seems that only those species survived the mass extinction that were potentially able to benefit from the conditions post catastrophe. Bit of a coincidence ?
if it is not true then
Evolution must have speeded up 'cos new species do emerge in short time scales after mass extinctions.
Quite. Between extinction events species accumulate neutral mutations, proportional to time elapsed. This huge reservoir of neutral mutations represents speciation potential. Once a mass extinction occurs and new ecological niches open up this money in the bank is cashed in and speciation by punctuated equilibria occurs.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 198
RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/24/2008 2:43:55 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		LadyE: I am not talking about the level of knowledge required to do a Morris dance or cook a sausage I am speaking of the level required to say write a symphony, and frequently more than one with the odd  Piano Concerto in your spare moments. Things like that.
Confers no survival benefit at all  but has occured, frequently..

Luckydog's argument about the odds against me actually being me is also used by the Delusioners. We are here despite the indisputably large odds against it so we must have evolved.

The argument applied by Rule is an assumption based on the belief that the Delusion is true.
Something quite mysterious underlies origin of both life and and species.
Trancendentally mysterious, beyond the realm of our comprehension.
Exposes the limits of reason. Thats what it does. IMO.

(in reply to Rule)
Profile   Post #: 199
RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/24/2008 4:01:39 PM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

LadyE: I am not talking about the level of knowledge required to do a Morris dance or cook a sausage I am speaking of the level required to say write a symphony, and frequently more than one with the odd  Piano Concerto in your spare moments. Things like that.
Confers no survival benefit at all  but has occured, frequently..



The only difference in the level of knowledge required to do a Morris dance or cook a sausage, and the level of knowledge required to compose an orchestral piece is the depth and type of knowledge required.

And it would be curious indeed, given that for us our natural environment is not the natural earth but long since has been the strange concoction of our species known as society and culture, to hold that knowing how to compose an orchestral piece which will be widely popular, is not a useful survival skill.

True, its not catching prey, growing crops or building a weatherproof dwelling, but our species is a cooperative one which forms societies, so that those most adept at one or a selection of useful tasks to group survival, may specialise. Mr Beethoven likely never built a house, but he lived in one. He likely never slaughtered a pig, but he ate pork. He likely never grew a cabbage, but he ate cabbage - and all of these requirements for his survival he didnt steal but paid for with the proceeds from his success as a composer and performer. Thus his musical skill was his survival skill, in the curious environment of human society and culture.

Were the output of his musical skill not valued by his society and culture, then he would either not have survived, or he would have been obligated to find some other way to acquire the necessities of life.

And Mr Beethoven, for all of his innovation was like us, standing on the shoulders of those who had gone before, whose accumulated knowledge he absorbed prior to being able to compose or perform. There may have been latent talent, but had Mr Beethoven been born and raised a cowherd, we would never have heard his name, for lacking the opportunity to absorb the requisite knowledge, his musical output would have been limited and enjoyed only by his bovine charges.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 200
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