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RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/24/2008 4:03:35 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

quote:

Darwin invoked the imperfection of the fossil record to explain away apparent periods of dramatic change in geologic history and sought to deny the reality of a handful of global mass extinctions that were followed by the “instantaneous” (in the geological sense) appearance of a suite of new species, which a literal reading of the fossil record suggested.

Does this quote not reveal a problem?
If the basis of the Delusion is true ie slow latent changes due to mutation awaiting the environment so that something new may blossom, then it seems that only those species survived the mass extinction that were potentially able to benefit from the conditions post catastrophe. Bit of a coincidence ?
if it is not true then
Evolution must have speeded up 'cos new species do emerge in short time scales after mass extinctions. 
Odd or what.?

First off it is simply a writers, BTW ref please I want to read the whole article/essay, opinion and not backed up by anything at all. Some points that should be obvious
1) Darwin was unaware of global mass extinctions. Paleontology was in its infancy when he wrote OoS.
2) Even if Darwin did write such a thing, he didn't, it wouldn't be relevant since the study of evolution has not been static since he postulated it.

Mass extinctions are rare but they do serve to allow major evolutionary innovations. A fairly basic example is th eend of Mesozoic extinction event allowed mammals to diversify and become the major terrestrial vertabrates. However that was 65 million years ago and in the intervening millenia many species have come and gone. Fundamentally evolution goes on all the time and new species arise all the time although in human life spans it may be very hard to see it.

Now why would evolution appear to speed up after a mass extinction? A mass extinction means many ecological niches will be empty. A population evolving into an occupied niche is unlikely due to competition from an already adapted population but if the niche is empty it is a lot easier for a population to evolve to fill the niche. Also a mass extinction usually implies that even surviving populations are much reduced so selective pressure weaker since competition for food and living space is less intense in the aftermath of the event.

As to intelligence, we don't have great answers. What we have are some observations and some suppositions but we're still figuring out what is intelligence so the evolution of intelligence is still not well understood.

What we know:
1) Carnivores and omnivores tend to be more intelligent than obligate herbivores. Sneaking up on grass doesn't take a big brain.

2) Social animals, those that live in hierachical groups, seem to be smarter than solitary organisms.

3) Tool use may predate the human/chimp split. All 3 species use tools to some degree.

4) A major difference between chimps and humans as regards to tool use and intelligence is how and how well parents teach tool use to their offspring. A recent Nova on this will explain better than I can:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/apegenius/

5) Language we don't know when it arose but it seems reasonable that verbal communication drove cooperative action which would drive greater language use and higher intelligence.

Finally I will point out that a lot of research is ongoing on these issues and we may know more soon.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
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RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/24/2008 5:19:10 PM   
seeksfemslave


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LadyE: the point that you are apparently refusing to accept is that the intellect demonstrated by one such as Beethoven or say any creative mathematician you care to name, should not exist at all, regardless of his background, if the Delusion is true.
Thats what the inexorable inflexible hammer of Natural Selection says.

You are talking Social Engineering. I am trying to examine basic principles.

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RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/24/2008 5:40:25 PM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

LadyE: the point that you are apparently refusing to accept is that the intellect demonstrated by one such as Beethoven or say any creative mathematician you care to name, should not exist at all, regardless of his background, if the Delusion is true.
Thats what the inexorable inflexible hammer of Natural Selection says.

You are talking Social Engineering. I am trying to examine basic principles.


How so?

DK has already touched on the origins of language as a means of enhancing cooperation and the idea that cooperation enhances language development in our cooperative species and the possible effect such might have had on our brain size and function.

The development of a larger brain and enhanced function of that brain in a cooperative species using language to overcome the challenges of its (in earlier times) natural earth environment through enhanced cooperation prompted by enhanced communication, is surely one which can be explained in terms of evolution? ie the less capable do not survive or else find few opportunities to reproduce.

Especially in a strongly hierarchical species, where brains come to be valued over brawn and social position gained through brains or a combination of brains and brawn is what determines what share of the available food one gets and what mating possibilities might be open. Those possessed of brawn alone dont get far in such a situation, being outwitted and outnumbered by those with greater intellect who are ready and able to communicate. This is what did for our former predators as well as for less capable members of our own species. And those with the brains know that cooperation is the best means to survive.

So even in the absence of all the culturally accumulated knowledge required to produce a Beethoven, Mr Beethoven could be expected to have a brain the same size as ours today because he like us is the product of much earlier physical evolution. The curious thing I find about our possible ongoing evolution is that our culturally accumulated knowledge is what is evolving in our species, not our physical form - we dont need to change physically to meet the challenges of our environment after all, since our accumulated knowledge can get us round every challenge we face.

E

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RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/24/2008 5:49:03 PM   
Zensee


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

LadyE: the point that you are apparently refusing to accept is that the intellect demonstrated by one such as Beethoven or say any creative mathematician you care to name, should not exist at all, regardless of his background, if the Delusion is true.
Thats what the inexorable inflexible hammer of Natural Selection says.



Of course it says nothing of the sort. There is nothing in the process of natural selection that would preclude the development of extraordinary characteristics. And intellect is just a biophysical capability. In fact nature commonly exploits extremes of size, characteristics and capabilities. Many species have extraordinary capabilities. The human intellect, even in it's most rarefied expression is not an unnatural thing in that sense, as remarkable and impactful as it might be. Believing it to be something apart from nature is hubris.

The only difference between the Beethoven of last century, this century or 10,000 years ago is the quality of resources available for learning and expression available to them. Check out the cave paintings of Lascaux, for instance. Some are done by masters of their time and others by wannabes. There's nothing spooky or new about geniuses nor is there anything in natural selection to filter them out. There's a ton of reasons for encouraging them though.

But please, explain the workings of such an anti-genius filtering mechanism rather than just allude to the one in the black box.


Z.



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RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/24/2008 6:03:40 PM   
seeksfemslave


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quote:

LadyE:
Those possessed of brawn alone dont get far in such a situation, being outwitted and outnumbered by those with greater intellect who are ready and able to communicate.


When Gog was running the cave he got everything and would have quickly eliminated the thinkers whether they were right or not. He wouldnt know or care. They would be seen as competition.

If you think Humans as a species are cooperative then I think you are sadly mistaken
Local familial groups may well cooperate but will compete to the death with those not of the group.
That is as true today as it has always been and in fact is the underlying reason why a multicultural society cannot possibly "work".
This fact can clearly be seen in unselfconcious animals. So long as the group hierachy is maintained all is well. If not expect big trouble.

You are trying to justify that which has come about in violation of the principles of the Delusion.
Since it has come about I conclude that the Delusion is just that, a Delusion.

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RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/24/2008 6:23:23 PM   
luckydog1


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Why wouldn't the person who figures out how to throw a spear, be able to kill brawny Ogg?  Or person who figures out how to poison him?  Or uses language to get a group together for a coup?  There is huge link between musical ability and patern recognition (math is related also).  And patern recognition is very usefull.  Also Musical talent has the amazing effect of making many women get wet and itch between the legs.  Also Ogg  has to constantly prove his brawn, and will get in a lot fights, and has to lead the hunting pack.  While the music/shaman guy hangs back at camp making the women wet.  Who passes on thier genes, they guy who dies while attacking a sabertooth cat or they guy back at camp getting laid?  According to the "delusion" of evolution that explains why humans got smarter and weaker physically.

Zensee, really the idea that the human mind/will is seperate from the rest of Nature is "hubris"?   Thats interesting, recently I was arguing with someone who got quite angry at the idea, that human minds are no different than anything else in the Universe, and governed by the laws of Science.

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RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/24/2008 6:29:17 PM   
Zensee


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Of course we are cooperative - all social carnivores are cooperative - it's how they avoid eating each other instead of the prey they share. Wolves, lions, hyenas - they have built in anti-eating-things-that-look-like-us behaviours. Sure those sometimes go awry but for the most part they work - if they didn't there would be only solitary carnivores, no social carnivores, including ourselves.

Undoubtedly things were brutish in the past, as they often are for many if not most people, even in the present. Even the most destitute can and do still keep their humanity. And the Gogs of the world are generally either remarkable intellects themselves or they are cunning enough to recognise the value of a brain or two in their service. Gog might want to get rid of the other guy's brain trust but not his own.Your example is pure speculation about the wiles and motives of imaginary persons.


Z.


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RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/24/2008 9:48:55 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

LadyE: the point that you are apparently refusing to accept is that the intellect demonstrated by one such as Beethoven or say any creative mathematician you care to name, should not exist at all, regardless of his background, if the Delusion is true.
Thats what the inexorable inflexible hammer of Natural Selection says.

This doesn't make any sense. Plenty of studies show a connection between musical ability and mathematical ability. In primitive societies music was pretty important and would tend to be a conserved trait. Not much more advanced societies were clearly interested in astronomy, check out Salisbury plain if you don't believe me, and even basic astronomy is going to involve some math. With music and astronomy tied up with religion and religious types tending to wield power and those who wield power tending to reproduce I see no reason to think that mathematic ability would be selected against.

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RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/24/2008 11:21:23 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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I lost my page. Where were we? Oh, yeah, seeks was asserting that the ToE is some sort of delusion, but has failed to provide an internally consistent, testable, and falsifiable alternative. In every case I have read, he claims that the ToE is somehow bad scinece which ignores "other evidence' but fails to provide that evidence.

I already explained how the the combining of molecules (we chemists call this a "synthesis") to form more complex molecules is guaranteed, but that was ignored. They always ignore the maths? Why is that?

Anyway, why Creationism is Bullshit.
http://www.swarthmore.edu/NatSci/cpurrin1/textbookdisclaimers/wackononsense.pdf

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RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/24/2008 11:47:23 PM   
Hippiekinkster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Its a pity these posts have to be so long I expect that reduces the likelyhood that they will be read
 
DomKen is not refuting my arguments, he posting alternative conjectural speculation.
These speculations are presented as proven facts in schools.
Trying to prove propostion A false is a legitimate self contained course of action.
It is not necessary to propose an alternative truth.

Archaeoraptor, the fraud
quote:

The idea of feathered dinosaurs and the theropod origin of birds is being actively promulgated by a cadre of zealous scientists acting in concert with certain editors at Nature and National Geographic who themselves have become outspoken and highly biased proselytizers of the faith. Truth and careful scientific weighing of evidence have been among the first casualties in their program, which is now fast becoming one of the grander scientific hoaxes of our age---the paleontological equivalent of cold fusion. If Sloan’s article is not the crescendo of this fantasia, it is difficult to imagine to what heights it can next be taken. .. Storrs L. Olson, Smithsonian

Mr Olsen is or was
Curator of Birds
National Museum of Natural History
Smithsonian Institution
Washington, DC 20560

The point of his comment was that the popular scientific press wanted the fraudulent fossil to be valid so they took the necessary steps to publicise it as true, and came a cropper.

What happened next is illuminating, two replacement fossils were "found"  with feathers and presented so as to maintain the integrity of the Dinosaur-Bird evolutionary path.
It turned out that neither fossil showed feathers but "something" some experts thought could be feathers.
See what I'm getting at ?

No, people with inquisitive minds, like myself, take the time to read long posts. I also take the time to read convoluted links which are NOT blogs or Op-Ed pages. I find it rare to the point of "ain't gonna happen" that people on your side of the discussion will actually read links from Peer-reviewed publications and change their opinions based on new data. "Ain't gonna happen".

Having said that, here are Olsen's two letters to the Nat'l Geo.
http://dml.cmnh.org/1999Nov/msg00263.html
These may or may not have bolstered your argument. Once again, I remind you all: Primary sources. Peer-reviewed publications. Theosophy.com is NOT either of those.

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RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/25/2008 12:14:21 AM   
Hippiekinkster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Joe Stalin          Bourgois intellectual you are a criminal because you are a lapdog capitalist lackey.
Joe McCarthy   Sir, you are wrong , why, because you are a Communist thats why.
PC thinker        Sir, you are racist because  you disagree with PC revisionist thinking on racial matters
DomKen          Seeks is wrong because I can find similar views to his on creationist web sites.
No, you are wrong because your views are the same views as the Creationists, which have been debunked 18 billion times already. (For those of you who want to go off on wild-eyed hyperbolic rants, and yet take this statement as fact or actual opinion; it is hyperbole too.)

{quote]See the similarities ?
Lets not argue the issue lets proceed by assertion, suspension of disbelief and guilt by association.
Works every time he he he he he he No irony here.

Now a visual check extracted from an anti creationist source: 
http://www.swarthmore.edu/NatSci/cpurrin1/textbookdisclaimers/wackononsense.pdf

quote:

Disinterested viewers take a look at the proof of the underlying tenets of the Delusion by looking at the pictures of the Finches near the top of link provided by HippieKinkster.
It is on those diffences that the Darwin Delusion was born.
A bird that looks like a bird and still is a bird but with slightly different physical characteristics.
From that it follows does it not that the bird will eventually change into ...well who knows 'cos I dont.
Well, of course you don't. That is a given. That's because the point of those pretty little pictures seems to have completely eluded you. Hint: "Adaptive Fitness" Be helpful if you read the article instead of looking at the pictures. SURELY you can see how a bird's beak might change shape over hundreds of generations if it's main food, a grain, also changes shape. Even I can understand that, and I am neither an evolutionary biologist, nor the possessor of a 200 IQ, nor the creator of 1000s of scientific advancements, as some of our learned colleagues on this Forum are. Here's a slightly more complicated "co-evolutionary" setup:
http://www.cite-sciences.fr/english/ala_cite/exhibitions/orchids/orchidees-pollinisation.htm  No Fair Peeking!!!!! Learning Bad!!!!

quote:

or 
inanimate chemicals will eventually organise themselves into the wonder that is man  exemplified by that master regurgitator of clapped out tautology  DomKen. he he he he he

Inanimate chemicals? Huh? As opposed to animate chemicals? Like a bottle of Ferrous Ammonium Chloride that jumps off the shelf and does a chorus-line dance a-la Fanny Brice? he he he he he
  Say what, Bubba? he he he he he 
Wake me up when you have a logical argument, mkay?

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RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/25/2008 1:04:15 AM   
Rule


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LE, ld1, Zensee and DK have said it all.
 
I will add this. According to the theory of evolution the species in any ecology will coevolve, as the ecology is a substantial part of the environment that exerts natural selection on each species, i.e. each stimulates the evolution of all the others. Without the other species in the ecology the evolution of a particular species will be nearly static.
 
During the past couple of years I have come to conclude that the human species is an ecology in itself, and hence the same principle of stimulated coevolution applies. The evolution of the human species is ever accelerating, like a mass falling down in vacuum.
 

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RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/25/2008 2:06:14 AM   
seeksfemslave


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Again too long but it cant be helped.

Zensee thinks that animals co operate. So they might until the food is on the table, then Ogg gets the best bits and so on down the chain. Also many species do actually eat their own young. Start again with my genes I suppose you will say. Its not co operation tho' is it ?

The connection between maths. and musical ability or the fact that skills reach way back in time is irrelevent.They shouldnt exist because at the time they were coming into existence zero avantage was conferred.
The thinker who stayed behind in the cave would likely as not have been expelled from the group and certainly would  not have been allowed to take any females or if not expelled he would have been stopped from breeding by force.Nature red in tooth and claw you know.

Humming a folk song is not the level of musical ability I am thinking of.
Beyond a certain level of grunting gesticulation language doesnt help much in primitive societies.
The advantages conferred after language developed could be taken as evidence of purpose in Nature, again in violation of the Delusion..

I think the hubris resides in those who think humans are capable of "knowing" everything and who will not appreciate the wondrous inexplicable mystery that surrounds us.
In the face of that wonder some take refuge in religion, others dont but they still recognise its existence.

I expect it is true that Ogg's life was a short tho' happy one but in the natural scheme of things he would have been replaced by Ogg2 not Punybrain. The only way for intellect to develop was for the Oggs to develop it, but that shouldnt happen because his descendant who did not inherit intelligence, always at the start the overwhelming majority, would exterminate both the physically weak, let them die, and the lazy intellectual types, kill 'em.

Look at species like crocs and sharks which have have stayed the same for aeons. Why? Im not sure but one possible reason is that they fit their environment perfectly as did Ogg and his tribe.
Ogg had inbuilt the capacity to improve right from the start. He didnt evolve at all.
That is inconsistant with Natural Selection and indicates purpose.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 3/25/2008 2:09:55 AM >

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RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/25/2008 3:50:05 AM   
Rule


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Zensee thinks that animals co operate. So they might until the food is on the table, then Ogg gets the best bits and so on down the chain.

The one who gets the best bits is Satan - but there is food on the table for all the others as well and a little bit of food is better than no food.

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
The connection between maths and musical ability or the fact that skills reach way back in time is irrelevent. They shouldnt exist because at the time they were coming into existence zero avantage was conferred.

Neither do peacock feathers confer advantage - but still they did evolve for a reason that I explained in an earlier thread that you participated in. Do you recall what that reason is?

Abilities are to a large degree learned and developed, not inherited. What is inherited is the potential to learn and develop abilities. Abilities can be learned and developed because the brain is plastic. So what evolved was primarily plasticity of the brain - which obviously is advantageous even in the slightest degree.

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
The thinker who stayed behind in the cave would likely as not have been expelled from the group and certainly would  not have been allowed to take any females or if not expelled he would have been stopped from breeding by force. Nature red in tooth and claw you know.

There is a tale in aboriginal folklore about a man who stayed behind when the other men went ahunting and who seduced their women; he was indeed expelled and disappeared. Nevertheless it is to be expected that he had reproductive success.

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Humming a folk song is not the level of musical ability I am thinking of.

Seems to me that it is the missing link between no musical ability and the level of musical ability that you are thinking of.

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Beyond a certain level of grunting gesticulation language doesnt help much in primitive societies.

Nevertheless the inane conversations of females must serve some purpose. Children that are not subjected to that barrage of language by females end up feral - presumably also without musical abilities.

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
The advantages conferred after language developed could be taken as evidence of purpose in Nature, again in violation of the Delusion.

Care to elaborate on those advantages, for I have no idea what you are referring to.

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
I think the hubris resides in those who think humans are capable of "knowing" everything and who will not appreciate the wondrous inexplicable mystery that surrounds us.

I am capable of knowing everything and I do appreciate the universe and what is beyond the universe. Indeed, I am not human.

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
In the face of that wonder some take refuge in religion, others dont but they still recognise its existence.

The latter will be wise to study mythology.

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
I expect it is true that Ogg's life was a short tho' happy one but in the natural scheme of things he would have been replaced by Ogg2 not Punybrain.

According to Egyptian mythology that practice changed by divine decree.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
The only way for intellect to develop was for the Oggs to develop it

You are mistaken. Satan has an extremely high IQ - but nothing else, and in fact is therefore at the very bottom of intellectual abilities.
 
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
his descendant who did not inherit intelligence, always at the start the overwhelming majority, would exterminate both the physically weak, let them die, and the lazy intellectual types, kill 'em.

Indeed, Satan is bloodthirsty. However, those that cannot support the weak are themselves weak. Those that are not supported by the lazy intellectual types are vulnerable to those that are. Thus natural selection will give an advantage to those that support the weak and that cooperate with the lazy intellectual types.

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Look at species like crocs and sharks which have have stayed the same for aeons. Why? Im not sure but one possible reason is that they fit their environment perfectly as did Ogg and his tribe.

For those interested in shark evolution, look here.
I read there that sharks did not evolve by punctuated equilibria.

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Ogg had inbuilt the capacity to improve right from the start. He didnt evolve at all.

I have no idea what you are referring to.

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
That is inconsistant with Natural Selection and indicates purpose.

Natural selection does have purpose: to fit a species best to its environment, as a result of which beauty is created.

You appear to be not able to reconcile evolution with creation, atheism / materialism with spirituality, seeks. Why is that? Why are you convinced that those concepts are mutually exclusive?


< Message edited by Rule -- 3/25/2008 4:32:47 AM >

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RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/25/2008 4:10:27 AM   
seeksfemslave


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An odd fact about Natural Selection it appears  to be not universal.
If random mutations are at the base of the rise of modern man does that mean the the genes of Aboriginals or rain forest Pygmies are different from modern man.? Surely that cant be because we are told that the genetic differences between the so called races are so very small.
In truth genetic structure is the basis of ALL life . A fact which appears to give some comfort to the believers in the Delusion  when they point  back to common ancestry.
Only arskin

Rule appears to rely on the Divine or Natural Selection depending on the point he is trying to make.
Like the Vulcan Mr Spock I say....ILLOGICAL

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 3/25/2008 4:13:35 AM >

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RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/25/2008 4:23:54 AM   
Hippiekinkster


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

An odd fact about Natural Selection it appears  to be not universal.
If random mutations are at the base of the rise of modern man does that mean the the genes of Aboriginals or rain forest Pygmies are different from modern man.? Surely that cant be because we are told that the genetic differences between the so called races are so very small.
In truth genetic structure is the basis of ALL life . A fact which appears to give some comfort to the believers in the Delusion  when they point  back to common ancestry.
Only arskin

Rule appears to rely on the Divine or Natural Selection depending on the point he is trying to make.
Like the Vulcan Mr Spock I say....ILLOGICAL
I have exactly NO idea of what you are talking about. None. I just hope we manage to make it out.

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RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/25/2008 5:29:38 AM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Beyond a certain level of grunting gesticulation language doesnt help much in primitive societies.
The advantages conferred after language developed could be taken as evidence of purpose in Nature, again in violation of the Delusion..



I believe you greatly underestimate the ability of "grunts" to produce a useful language.

I refer back to the thread a while ago where I brought up runic sounds as possible origins of language. Clearly this is for the most part guesswork and language would have originated far further back in time than the runic sounds we will use here, but as an illustration it works, and there are indeed lots of coincidences between modern words in Germanic languages and runic sounds.

The runic sounds of the Elder Futhark (Futhark is akin to Alphabet, representing the first few sounds of the runic order) consist of 24 vowels and consonants, each representing a concept in magical/spiritual/philosophical endeavours - but also on an ordinary level representing an everyday concept familiar to our ancestors - sun, ice, dawn, cattle and so on.

If we stripped out the 6 vowel sounds (for use later), and the "need" rune (for use later), we are left with 17 consonant sounds, each of which in our proposed primitive language at base, refers to something concrete in the environment. Not much use to have 17 sounds/concepts to use as a language - but what happens if we start combining those 17 in different ways to express different sorts of the same thing, or related things?

With 17 such sounds, we can combine them as any two, any three, any four of them to produce far more complex ideas through mixing the concepts. We can use the same sound/concept twice in any of our compounds, to create even more possibilities. Already we are able to produce a lexicon of thousands of words, of a number alike to that which most people today use on a daily basis. And as long as we know what the 17 basic sound/concepts are, the resultant compound words make sense by virtue of their root elements.

We reserved the vowels above. Now we add them back in, to express nuances, perhaps to express preposition, motion or tenses, and immediately we can multiply our available word-hoard sixfold. And we reserved the "need" rune, which we can now bring back too to express negation or absence - that which is lacking etc.

So from a few primitive sounds, we can build a whole language which is every bit as complex as most language used today for ordinary purposes, and every bit up to the job of providing an efficient means of communication from the basic needs down to subtle nuances. With this tool at our disposal we can cooperate much more efficiently and our comparative vulnerability in the landscape is overcome in relation to natural threats, threats from predators and threats from other less developed members of our species. And we are able to transmit our skill and our knowledge to our children very efficiently indeed, and get the ball rolling on accumulated cultural knowledge which is still rolling today.

Next, I'm sure you will ask which came first? The brain and function to develop language or the language? This has been covered already though so I wont go over it again.

E

_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 217
RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/25/2008 6:34:51 AM   
LadyEllen


Posts: 10931
Joined: 6/30/2006
From: Stourport-England
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For what its worth, this discussion over reproductive possibilities for early humans does seem, from certain quarters at least, to be lacking somewhat. The idea that Ogg, being the brawny male he is, should then naturally be the male with whom the females should wish to mate, or that the Ogg, being the brawny male he is, should have exclusive access to the females willing or not, is incorrect I feel. And the idea that Ogg, being the brawny male he is, should be able to survive should he chase other males away is also incorrect; however brawny Ogg might be, he's still no match alone against a predator and not very successful as a lone hunter - he needs the other males in the group.

Lets be clear. We might suppose that Ogg will be the father of the group's offspring and so his brainier but less brawny companions' brain size and function should die off, not being passed down to the next generation. But in the absence of much awareness of how offspring are produced, all that the group can say with certainty, is who the mother of the offspring is. What is also certain is that female orgasm isnt just a nice-to-have feature, but an aid to ensuring that semen reaches an egg - hence females are far more likely to conceive with a partner they have selected and who because of his greater brain function has greater empathy for her pleasure too, than the large but stupid and brutish Ogg.

Why would the females select the relatively weaker but brainier males of the group over Ogg in the first place? At first sight, in a primitive environment, Ogg is the ideal partner - big, strong and able to defend the female and her offspring well. But only as long as weapons arent in use and a group of weaker but brainier males arent able to cooperate. With these developments, Ogg's prior advantages are lost - he can be killed by a smaller male and especially by a group of smaller males. And these smaller males who cooperate are not only better able to defend the female and her offspring than Ogg but they can also provide far more meat from hunting. And because of their greater brain function, theyre also better carers because they have greater empathy than Ogg.

But all of this misses the one important factor I noted as lacking. The discussion so far has centred around the idea of the male being the one who develops the larger brain and language. What is far more likely perhaps, and at the least just as likely, is that the enhanced brain function/ language process began in female humans, and even more likely was developed in and by females. To this day females reign supreme in terms of interpersonal skills and communication, perhaps as a function of their social environment, which has not changed a lot since earliest times right up to the very recent past. And it is from females that every child learns language and the basics of the culturally accumulated knowledge.

In this scenario, it matters not how big Ogg is, for any offspring he has will inherit the greater brain function of his mate and absorb the language and knowledge which his mate imparts. The offspring will also inherit some of Ogg's traits and in a generation or so, we will have the full range of modern man in both male and female. The males smaller than Ogg but smarter, the females preserving and developing the smarts from generation to generation.

Why should language originate in females rather than males? well, lets not kid ourselves that females prefer a means of communication which doesnt include the sort of violence for which males are supposedly adept - there is no reason to suppose that females need words to get basic points across such as "I'm the alpha round here" and so on. But what distinguishes the female from the male is that she carries the offspring necessary to the continued survival of the group - more basic physical means of communication between females in such a situation is not conducive to the survival of the group through its offspring. And more importantly, in such a group its likely that the females will be caring not only for their own offspring but for the offspring of the other females in the group, which means that each is vulnerable to the other in relation to her offspring, again reducing the value of more basic forms of communication. It becomes a far better alternative to try to communicate with one another by means which do not involve physical action, and which provide means for the cooperative lifestyle which shared child rearing requires. A group of females developing such skills would doubtless be far more successful in raising offspring compared to other less developed groups. And within a short time the whole would be transferred as much to the male offspring as to the female offspring, though the female offspring would be the ones who subsequently developed it further as they became the next generation of mothers.

So there you go. Ogg is an irrelevance, because its the females who won the day.

E



_____________________________

In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

(in reply to LadyEllen)
Profile   Post #: 218
RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/25/2008 6:36:37 AM   
DomKen


Posts: 19457
Joined: 7/4/2004
From: Chicago, IL
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Again too long but it cant be helped.

Zensee thinks that animals co operate. So they might until the food is on the table, then Ogg gets the best bits and so on down the chain. Also many species do actually eat their own young. Start again with my genes I suppose you will say. Its not co operation tho' is it ?

A group of hunter gatherers ruled by the most muscular would not likely survive as it isn't a simple matter of wander out of the cave and bonk some slow moving critter on the head. The hunters, the men, were often away for days at a time which means they had to have the ability to find their camp again which requires some brains as does the ability to stalk and kill large prey with a spear. The gatherers, the women and children, had to have broad knowledge of what was edible and what wasn't which had to be taught which means communication and memory. The group as a whole was nomadic, following the yearly migrations of prey species or following a seasonal route to areas where specific plants were available for harvest at specific times which requires a leader who can make good decisions about when to move camp, too early and what you're going there to get isn't there yet and too late other bands have taken the best spots.

quote:

The connection between maths. and musical ability or the fact that skills reach way back in time is irrelevent.They shouldnt exist because at the time they were coming into existence zero avantage was conferred.
The thinker who stayed behind in the cave would likely as not have been expelled from the group and certainly would  not have been allowed to take any females or if not expelled he would have been stopped from breeding by force.Nature red in tooth and claw you know.

Why would a healthy young thinker stay behind? A more intelligent male can hunt as well as if not better than the dumber one. A smart woman can pick berries just as
well as the dumber one. However the male who better understands what a spear point's function and better able to learn and improve the skill of making those stone points will certainly be a more successful hunter and will be more likely to pass on his genes. The smart woman while gathering may realize that while the broad leaf is an ok way to carry the stuff you find while gathering a simple mat woven from long narrow leaves is a better way to do it. Which of course leads to basket weaving which leads to pottery.

quote:

Humming a folk song is not the level of musical ability I am thinking of.
Beyond a certain level of grunting gesticulation language doesnt help much in primitive societies.
The advantages conferred after language developed could be taken as evidence of purpose in Nature, again in violation of the Delusion..

That's nonsensical. A gestural language might work for some limited activities but the subtleties of how to flake flint or obsidian stones to make various tools is not something a gesture or three will communicate and the skilled maker of stone tools would need to pass that skill on.

quote:

I think the hubris resides in those who think humans are capable of "knowing" everything and who will not appreciate the wondrous inexplicable mystery that surrounds us.
In the face of that wonder some take refuge in religion, others dont but they still recognise its existence.

Scientists are well aware they don't and can't know everything. But that doesn't mean we stop looking and go 'we don't how that happened, it must be supernatural.'

quote:

I expect it is true that Ogg's life was a short tho' happy one but in the natural scheme of things he would have been replaced by Ogg2 not Punybrain. The only way for intellect to develop was for the Oggs to develop it, but that shouldnt happen because his descendant who did not inherit intelligence, always at the start the overwhelming majority, would exterminate both the physically weak, let them die, and the lazy intellectual types, kill 'em.

The biggest brawniest sort of tool using humans are extinct. H neandertalis vanished from Europe quite rapidly after H sapiens, no where near as robust physically but undeniably more advanced tool makers, entered Europe. So your hypothesis of brawn over brains doesn't seem to be correct.

quote:

Look at species like crocs and sharks which have have stayed the same for aeons. Why? Im not sure but one possible reason is that they fit their environment perfectly as did Ogg and his tribe.
Ogg had inbuilt the capacity to improve right from the start. He didnt evolve at all.
That is inconsistant with Natural Selection and indicates purpose.

Sharks and crocodiles are not species. There are dozens of species of shark alive right now and many more known from fossil teeth and jaws, unfortunately shark skeletons are primarily cartilage and therefore unlikely to fossilize. Crocdilaans comprise a number of different living species and we have fossils of many more with quite a bit of variation in size and habitat.

Your assertions about early humans do not match the fossil record or what we know of stone age hunter-gatherer cultures.

quote:

An odd fact about Natural Selection it appears  to be not universal.
If random mutations are at the base of the rise of modern man does that mean the the genes of Aboriginals or rain forest Pygmies are different from modern man.? Surely that cant be because we are told that the genetic differences between the so called races are so very small.

Pygmies and Aboriginals, I assuming he means native Australians, are definitely modern humans. Only one tribe of pygmy shows significant genetic distance from their modern neighbors. Even the Mbuti are fully interfertile with other humans. Their genetics are undergoing a lot of study and the basis of their short stature, dietary or genetic or environmental, may be better understood in the near future although the Mbuti are in danger of being wiped out do to their neighbor's genocide against them duringthe Congo civil war.

Indiginous Australians have no characteristic that would make anyone consider them to not be fully modern humans.


(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 219
RE: The Human Race 2 - 3/25/2008 7:04:13 AM   
Rule


Posts: 10479
Joined: 12/5/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
An odd fact about Natural Selection it appears  to be not universal.

Do you have some examples?

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
If random mutations are at the base of the rise of modern man does that mean the the genes of Aboriginals or rain forest Pygmies are different from modern man.?

Aboriginals and rain forest Pygmies are modern man; DK said that already. As any population they will have gene pools with allele frequencies that differ from other gene pools.

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Rule appears to rely on the Divine or Natural Selection depending on the point he is trying to make.

Both are equally valid ways to interpret the universe, the spiritual perhaps more so than the materialistic. I can discuss a subject from both perspectives. Why cannot you?

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Like the Vulcan Mr Spock I say....ILLOGICAL

Mr Spock was not that logical at all.
It makes sense to me; that it does not make sense to you is not my problem, but yours.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)
Profile   Post #: 220
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