Reality versus Theory (Full Version)

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Aneirin -> Reality versus Theory (3/16/2008 10:50:57 AM)

This  morning here in Britain I watched a programme on BBC1, a programme called 'The Big Question', a show where a panel is invited to participate along with noted professionals in a certain field of expertise. Big questions are asked , these big questions being the hot topics in the British public sphere.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/programmes/thebigquestions/

One of the question that was a hot topic was 'Has Liberal Values Destroyed Britain'.

The question being asked gravitated towards crime, criminals and victims and there was a marked difference in views held between the public and the experts. The public, amongst them were victims of crime, people who had been there with the horror and it's consequences. They in particular held views not in line with the experts, experts being psychologists, crime writers  and others, people who themselves are happy to theorise, theories based of statistics  and papers, but in reality, have not actually experienced any of which they blat about.

The impression I got was that these self proclaimed 'experts', people who themselves are involved in crime rehabilitation and prevention, really do not know what they are talking about, their theories are just that, theories which might be applicable in an ideal world, but not this world, yet they, their type are the ones listened to by law makers.

Something I see as why it is all going pear shaped in Britain, an elite of touchy feely ivory tower dwellers who apparently know it all, but at the same time know nothing.

Furthermore, victims of crime in this country are left out of the process of law. It is considered that if a crime is done to a person, then that is a crime to the crown, and the crime prosecution service takes action and punishes on behalf of the crown, the victim falls by the wayside, apparently of little interest.other than them though in a reality a victim, they are seen as a witness, no more.

I feel who should be listened to as regards crime, prevention , punishment and rehabilitation, is the people it concerns, the public, not the theorists and experts, as I believe until they have experienced, they know nothing

Who else thinks laws as to crimes should be in the hands of the public and not the elitists?

(sorry for the overlong post, I have strong feelings about this).



seeksfemslave -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/16/2008 12:07:34 PM)

Even the Liberals are beginning to realise what a cock up they have made. In fact what they have done is an insult to sensible Liberalism.It adds up to a perverse, in the sociological sense, arrogant self serving non philosophy of mindless non judgemental permissivenes.
It has been apparent for years that the views of the masses have been willfully ignored and the hypocrites never stop talking about democracy.
Just a few examples.
For the masses the education system has been wrecked.
Pursuing sexual tolerance/diversity  the  institution of marriage has been undermined.
I do not idealise marriage and I am not against sexual diversity but the balance has swung much too far the wrong way.
Social Welfareism has had disastrous consequences.
See this missing child just recovered in the UK. The mother has had 7 kids by 5 different men. Financed how ?
Estimates are that at 60% of those on incapacity benefit are capable of some form of employment.
Immigration. Totally out of control and leading to widespread social tensions that can only get worse.

Dont forget a few years ago it would not even be possible to have had the debate. Its too late now.
What an eff up.



kittinSol -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/16/2008 12:14:09 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

One of the question that was a hot topic was 'Has Liberal Values Destroyed Britain'.



Nope.

Britain was never "great"; and Thatcher made it worse than it was. Remember her? I do.



FullCircle -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/16/2008 12:50:13 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
Furthermore, victims of crime in this country are left out of the process of law. It is considered that if a crime is done to a person, then that is a crime to the crown, and the crime prosecution service takes action and punishes on behalf of the crown, the victim falls by the wayside, apparently of little interest.other than them though in a reality a victim, they are seen as a witness, no more.


The law should be impartial and not driven by the emotions of victims. If the law is seen to be siding with the victim people would start to wonder if it was all for show and so think to themselves; let’s dispense with the show and cut straight to the punishment.



popeye1250 -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/16/2008 1:07:10 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Even the Liberals are beginning to realise what a cock up they have made. In fact what they have done is an insult to sensible Liberalism.It adds up to a perverse, in the sociological sense, arrogant self serving non philosophy of mindless non judgemental permissivenes.
It has been apparent for years that the views of the masses have been willfully ignored and the hypocrites never stop talking about democracy.
Just a few examples.
For the masses the education system has been wrecked.
Pursuing sexual tolerance/diversity  the  institution of marriage has been undermined.
I do not idealise marriage and I am not against sexual diversity but the balance has swung much too far the wrong way.
Social Welfareism has had disastrous consequences.
See this missing child just recovered in the UK. The mother has had 7 kids by 5 different men. Financed how ?
Estimates are that at 60% of those on incapacity benefit are capable of some form of employment.
Immigration. Totally out of control and leading to widespread social tensions that can only get worse.

Dont forget a few years ago it would not even be possible to have had the debate. Its too late now.
What an eff up.


Seeks, HERE! HERE!
You could be describing the U.S. too.
"Liberalism is a disease."



thompsonx -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/16/2008 1:16:55 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250

Seeks, HERE! HERE!
You could be describing the U.S. too.
"Liberalism is a disease."

popeye:
So is bigotry.
thompson







thompsonx -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/16/2008 1:29:52 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

Even the Liberals are beginning to realise what a cock up they have made. In fact what they have done is an insult to sensible Liberalism.It adds up to a perverse, in the sociological sense, arrogant self serving non philosophy of mindless non judgemental permissivenes.
Being non-judgmental is something of which you will never be accused.


It has been apparent for years that the views of the masses have been willfully ignored and the hypocrites never stop talking about democracy.
Just a few examples.
For the masses the education system has been wrecked.
Are we to take from this that you got your education before this educational "train wreck"?


Pursuing sexual tolerance/diversity  the  institution of marriage has been undermined.
I do not idealise marriage and I am not against sexual diversity but the balance has swung much too far the wrong way.
Previously you decry the lack of democracy and here you decry its presence.  Why?

Social Welfareism has had disastrous consequences.
See this missing child just recovered in the UK. The mother has had 7 kids by 5 different men. Financed how ?
The same way your countries adventureism in Iraq is financed only without filling any body bags.

Estimates are that at 60% of those on incapacity benefit are capable of some form of employment.

Are you suggesting that the royal family actually get jobs?

Immigration. Totally out of control and leading to widespread social tensions that can only get worse.
Perhaps that is one of the consequences of empire.

Dont forget a few years ago it would not even be possible to have had the debate. Its too late now.
You mean you did not speak up when you were a young man?  Why not?
What an eff up.



KenDckey -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/16/2008 1:37:21 PM)

I think that liberalism has changed it so that the victim is now the criminal.    It isn't his fault he turned out this way, it is the fault of his environment or whatever type thing.   The true victum is at faut because he shouldn't have been there (just like international maritine law where if a ship runs aground it is the fault of the cargo because the ship wouldn't have been there if it weren't for the cargo sending him that way).  



kittinSol -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/16/2008 1:44:15 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

I think that liberalism has changed it so that the victim is now the criminal. 



Since "liberalism" is such a weak, suck-ass notion, would you please explain how it ever changed any law?




KenDckey -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/16/2008 1:47:02 PM)

Sheesh   that is easy   Thru legislative and judicial authority.   LOL   that is the way all laws are changed regardless of who is in power.



kittinSol -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/16/2008 1:50:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KenDckey

Sheesh   that is easy   Thru legislative and judicial authority.   LOL   that is the way all laws are changed regardless of who is in power.


[sm=biggrin.gif]



domiguy -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/16/2008 1:56:56 PM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250


"Liberalism is a disease."


And conservatism is the plague.

Can't wait for your next illuminating thread about the illegal immigrants or Ted Kennedy.

Is it that people who are liberal can focus on more than one issue at the same time?....You seem preoccupied with just a few topics...Illegals, Ted Kennedy and the evils of liberals...This can't be healthy. You should take a walk outside....I know... I know.. that you will be packin'...Cuz you conservatives are afraid of your own shadow.



LadyEllen -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/16/2008 2:06:04 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
I feel who should be listened to as regards crime, prevention , punishment and rehabilitation, is the people it concerns, the public, not the theorists and experts, as I believe until they have experienced, they know nothing

Who else thinks laws as to crimes should be in the hands of the public and not the elitists?



The problems with having the criminal law and justice system placed in the hands of the public are the very same problems we have with the democratic system.
- the majority are unable to understand that which is necessary to understand
- many are pretty much disinterested apart from when it affects them directly
- we end up with lowest common denominators ruling the day rather than what is needful, driven by those with special interests

At the same time though, it is doubtless the case that those who followed and supported the kind of liberalisations which occurred during the 70s and who then pursued these ideas from the 80s onwards as the older generation gave way to the younger, are not necessarily correct in their premises. Nevertheless, regardless of the inadequacies of the current regime, it is clearly better to have a regime which is founded on the rights of the individual rather than the earlier system which seemed predicated on the rights of the process.

On the wider question of reality vs theory, I was discussing with my son earlier this evening about the business lessons he now gets at school. I wondered why, if the teachers know enough about business that they can teach it, they are not all self employed tycoons. I was sure, that whatever degrees they could wave at me, I know more about business than any of them - having worked in and run my own business for many years. It would make sense to me, to have business lessons given by the likes of me rather than teachers who know the theory but not the practice.

E



kittinSol -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/16/2008 2:09:47 PM)

It's the stench of reactionnary shit we smell more than the conversative plague.  



Level -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/16/2008 2:10:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

an elite of touchy feely ivory tower dwellers who apparently know it all, but at the same time know nothing.


Good luck in ever opening their eyes, much less their minds.
 
Smug, self-rightous, as sure of the rightness of their every thought as they are that the earth revolves around the sun....
 
Quick to anger if their views are doubted, quick to laugh and ask you "why so upset?" if yours are the ones being shot at.....
 
Edited to add: I don't know that "liberal values" have destroyed much of anything. Just some of her foot-soldiers could do with a wake-up call, much like some of the dunderheads on the right could.

 

 
 



kittinSol -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/16/2008 2:15:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

Good luck in ever opening their eyes, much less their minds.
 
Smug, self-rightous, as sure of the rightness of their every thought as they are that the earth revolves around the sun....
 
Quick to anger if their views are doubted, quick to laugh and ask you "why so upset?" if yours are the ones being shot at.....
 


You really think that laws should be in the hands of the public, Level? Who is this "elite" you and Aneirin slight? Just curious... but I wouldn't trust public justice: far too many are obsessed with nooses and knots.



Level -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/16/2008 2:22:35 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

Good luck in ever opening their eyes, much less their minds.
 
Smug, self-rightous, as sure of the rightness of their every thought as they are that the earth revolves around the sun....
 
Quick to anger if their views are doubted, quick to laugh and ask you "why so upset?" if yours are the ones being shot at.....
 


You really think that laws should be in the hands of the public, Level? Who is this "elite" you and Aneirin slight? Just curious... but I wouldn't trust public justice: far too many are obsessed with nooses and knots.


I don't know if Aneirin and I are talking about exactly the same thing.
 
Can one argue that the law IS in the hands of the public, already? It is the public that votes.... [8|]
 
My post.... was more of a thought about certain types that you find on the left. As my post's edit added though, the right has their own inflexible sorts, close-minded and nose in the air. Both sides do.... they just are "sure" of different things.
 
Your question, if I understand: do I want "mob justice"? No.




kittinSol -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/16/2008 2:34:25 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

I don't know if Aneirin and I are talking about exactly the same thing.
 

 
He seems to be complaining that justice isn't made properly because of some ivory tower elite. It sounds like another conspiracy theory to me, but there we have it [8|] .
 
quote:

Can one argue that the law IS in the hands of the public, already? It is the public that votes.... [8|]
 


Well, no. Lawmakers are not the electorate. Voters get people in who later appoint legislators. And in the USA and Britain, common law is pretty indirect - embedded in the traditions of precedent and judicial interpretation.

quote:



My post.... was more of a thought about certain types that you find on the left. As my post's edit added though, the right has their own inflexible sorts, close-minded and nose in the air. Both sides do.... they just are "sure" of different things.
 


I find inflexibility in all political walks of life. As a matter of fact, extremely right-wing people strike me as far more rigid in their thinking than their commie-loving, pinko-feeling, touchy-feely bunnying counterparts. But I know what you mean about the nose in the air thing: I definitely suffer from a case of that. Which is why I often find myself being tapped down [:D] .





Owner59 -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/16/2008 2:45:41 PM)

 If any of this musing is true, explain this.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/2263690.stm


This isn`t theory....


The suicide rate increases under Conservative governments, research suggests.
Australian scientists found the suicide rate in the country increased significantly when a Conservative government was in power.

And an analysis of figures in the UK seems to suggest a similar trend.

The Australian team analysed suicide statistics for New South Wales between 1901, when the federal government was established, and 1998.

Click here to see suicide rates under British prime ministers



Level -> RE: Reality versus Theory (3/16/2008 2:49:02 PM)

quote:

kittin wrote:

extremely right-wing people strike me as far more rigid in their thinking than their commie-loving, pinko-feeling, touchy-feely bunnying counterparts.


I used to think the same thing. I suppose what engenders some of my anger towards the Rigid Left is that once, I (foolishly) thought that the left Had The Answers. They were the defenders of all that was good. When I found out otherwise, I felt betrayed.
 
Now, the Rigid Right, I always knew they were assholes.....
 
I've said it before; what I don't know dwarfs what I do know. But one thing I'm sure of, is no one has all the answers.
 
Edited to add: no matter how much tapping you may need, I shall always remain your sponsor. [:D]



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