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RE: MAKING someone Submissive - 3/17/2008 12:55:22 PM   
DesFIP


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

I think the question is moot.  No one person can definitively know that another is submissive or not.  A woman who tells me she is submissive (and wishes to submit to me), yet over three months consistantly attempts to dominate me and others, takes every opportunity to do only what she wishes, and shows zero interest in really submitting by her words, actions, and deeds, suggests to me that she isn't submissive (contrary to her self-assigned label of submissive.)  I can only act on what I observe in others; part of that observation includes the things she actually tells me.


 
Actually, all you can tell is that she isn't submissive to you. That no matter how much you and she would wish it, she doesn't feel submissive toward her. That you don't inspire submission in her.
 
Which doesn't mean that the next guy she meets, who operates from a different pov won't inspire submission from her.  Or a guy five years down the road.
 
In terms of the op, can he teach his s.o./gf to feel submissive towards him if she does not already? Probably not, unless he became a different kind of man, who did the things she needed in order to submit. And even this is based on the assumption that she does have a desire to submit to the right man.

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RE: MAKING someone Submissive - 3/17/2008 1:20:22 PM   
sirguym


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The closest that you can legally get to this is bringing a child up to believe literally in the misogynist interpretation of the dogma and doctrine of one of the major brain-washing superstitions; evangelical or Roman catholicism, islam, et. al.

If you go to those countries where such idiocy is deeply established as a popular delusion, then you will find that a greater proportion of the population exhibits classic 'submissive' behaviour.

(Though, of course, they'll call you a pervert if you do!)

Personally, if it were up to me, I'd make it illegal on the grounds that it amounts to child abuse.

(Edited to correct spelling.)


< Message edited by sirguym -- 3/17/2008 1:21:07 PM >

(in reply to DesFIP)
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RE: MAKING someone Submissive - 3/17/2008 1:43:23 PM   
FRSguy


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Oh, forgot the second part of your question… how I did it…

She led about the most vanilla life you could imagine.  Had only been with a few guys and her sex life had consisted of those twenty minute vanilla fucks and that was about it.
I asked her what she fantasized about which was getting tied up.  I remember how much I laughed at that… it was her kinkiest fantasy.  So…… I tied her up.  I did it fairly often. She liked to suck cock so I made her work for it. I basically pushed her to express herself while doing mildly kinky things. Found out she really loved kink as long as she was the one not responsible for it. I praised the hell out of her when she did a good job.  I then introduced D/S on a light level during sex while her hands were bound. Then I expanded the D/S… as in call on the phone saying I want to have sex tonight and go down a brief list of what was going to happen and what I needed her to do to get it so to speak (set up dungeon, where certain things). Then expanded the foreplay to be an all day thing.  This is kind of hard to explain but basically put I added butt swapping and daily recognition and support so that evening she would look forward to the sexcapades. I worked along the whole lines of her emotionally as in how I felt about her and that I respected her in spite of her doing things that were commonly considered disrespectful. I had found that a line existed in her as to what was good and what was considered to much and it was a matter of working with her to find that line and staying within it and waiting for it to move so to speak and then butting up against it slightly again.  If you cross the line all bets are off really quickly. The whole time I was doing this the big issue was mental not really the physical aspects of it.
The main parts of it were finding her limits sexually without crossing over a value that existed within her. Teaching her that it was okay to express herself sexually and that no thought could be a bad thought and that its okay to like cock and sex. The last part I don’t know really how to correctly express but its kind of like teaching a woman that its okay to be a mans slut and that does not make a woman a slut in general and that I didn’t disrespect her for the kinky things she did but rather respect her for what she goes through to please me.

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RE: MAKING someone Submissive - 3/17/2008 2:52:17 PM   
sirguym


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Yes, that is finding a submissive, and one way of developing her potential.

Great, but it's not MAKING a submissive, where there was none before.

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RE: MAKING someone Submissive - 3/17/2008 2:58:37 PM   
FRSguy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirguym

Yes, that is finding a submissive, and one way of developing her potential.

Great, but it's not MAKING a submissive, where there was none before.


Yes you are very correct about that.. I took someone who was unsatisfied with life, who had read about woman having orgasms and said what about me... and I found a window that was a solution to her problem... I did not make her a sub I just showed her a possible path that she could / can change at any time.

But considering she put the vasaline, oil and riding crop out last night under her own accord... I'm pretty damn pleased with her decision.....

(in reply to sirguym)
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RE: MAKING someone Submissive - 3/18/2008 1:14:41 AM   
Stephann


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

I think the question is moot.  No one person can definitively know that another is submissive or not.  A woman who tells me she is submissive (and wishes to submit to me), yet over three months consistantly attempts to dominate me and others, takes every opportunity to do only what she wishes, and shows zero interest in really submitting by her words, actions, and deeds, suggests to me that she isn't submissive (contrary to her self-assigned label of submissive.)  I can only act on what I observe in others; part of that observation includes the things she actually tells me.


 
Actually, all you can tell is that she isn't submissive to you. That no matter how much you and she would wish it, she doesn't feel submissive toward her. That you don't inspire submission in her.
 
Which doesn't mean that the next guy she meets, who operates from a different pov won't inspire submission from her.  Or a guy five years down the road.
 
In terms of the op, can he teach his s.o./gf to feel submissive towards him if she does not already? Probably not, unless he became a different kind of man, who did the things she needed in order to submit. And even this is based on the assumption that she does have a desire to submit to the right man.


Most certainly.

Hence the section about "I can only act on what I observe, including what she says."  If she acts decidedly unsubmissive to me, I certainly won't consider her to be submissive, regardless of what she says.  If I see her submissive to another, I would then be observing more information; meaning she's not unsubmissive, but rather unsubmissive to me.  Up to that point, I wouldn't have had such information.

Confusing?  Yeah, me too.  I don't expect every woman to be submissive to me; just the ones I tie down and fuck.

Stephan


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RE: MAKING someone Submissive - 3/18/2008 2:51:52 AM   
MasterFireMaam


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You set them up in a situation where being submissive is the better of the two choices. Most everyone has a price...but, be prepared that they may not pay it or that, if they do, you don't get what you thought you would.

Master Fire


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RE: MAKING someone Submissive - 3/18/2008 9:24:55 AM   
IronOre


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It IS possible to make someone submissive. Ever heard of Stockholm Syndrome? It would probably take kidnapping, sleep deprivation, solitary confinement, and a whole array of other highly illegal abuses, but I think it could be done. After the person is wholly and utterly broken they can be rebuilt the way you want. They can actually have the desire to please you. But is it worth it? It is extremely dangerous, time consuming and does not have guarenteed effects. Compare this to finding someone who alreeady has the desire to bottom, and is compatable with your needs/wants and I would say no. No, it is not worth it. But possible? Yes.

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RE: MAKING someone Submissive - 3/18/2008 9:41:56 AM   
LilMissHaven


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Dominance one of the purest gifts of acceptance one can receive.

Submission one of the purest gifts of trust and devotion one can receive.

By forcing one to become submissive or trying to make someone submissive who is not is nothing more then an unjustifiable form of deception and thievary. 

Shortly after being released I was hit with this strange anger at the world in general and the unfairness of this lifestyle towards submissives and so in a brilliant flash of anger once night I decided that I wasn't submissive at all.  I was actually Dominant...purely mind over matter.  Long story short the self deception lasted about three months of pure hell.  Final conclusion...I am what I am.  I am a submissive I have learned to embrace that part of myself.

Anything other then consensual is a game that will eventually bite you in the ass, trust me on this one.

< Message edited by LilMissHaven -- 3/18/2008 9:43:39 AM >


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RE: MAKING someone Submissive - 3/18/2008 5:41:59 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: chaosforge

But we all know that is not submission, that's the preservation of life.


It becomes a habit. Surprisingly quickly.
Habit becomes conditioning. Surprisingly quickly.
Conditioning becomes internalized values. Surprisingly quickly.
Internalized values shape identity and personality. Surprisingly quickly.

Working with a blank slate (but we can't talk about that) is easier than painting over an existing canvas, but it's certainly not impossible to do it. In fact, some understanding of that process is pretty much instinctive to humans. It is how we raise kids. It's how we make fraternities. Churches. Clubs. Societies. Nations. Humans are surprisingly flexible, adept at, and driven to, developing an identity that is suited to their environment and the pack they run with. After age 35, this begins to drop off somewhat, but not enough that one can't do it. It just takes more effort.

It's a valid question, and the answer is simple enough: sure- how much time and effort do you want to spend?

Also, of course, the quality of the result is unpredictable (just like rearing).

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


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RE: MAKING someone Submissive - 3/18/2008 5:45:16 PM   
Aswad


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sirguym

If you go to those countries where such idiocy is deeply established as a popular delusion, then you will find that a greater proportion of the population exhibits classic 'submissive' behaviour.


Bingo. Most twue slaves I know, and know of, just call it "being a good wife."

quote:

Personally, if it were up to me, I'd make it illegal on the grounds that it amounts to child abuse.


So which dogma or doctrine would you establish instead, with which beliefs (i.e. morals, etc.) ?

Or would you leave it at mandating that they become feral children instead?

I get the urge, myself, but I hope I have a wider perspective.

Health,
al-Aswad.


_____________________________

"If God saw what any of us did that night, he didn't seem to mind.
From then on I knew: God doesn't make the world this way.
We do.
" -- Rorschack, Watchmen.


(in reply to sirguym)
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RE: MAKING someone Submissive - 3/20/2008 10:18:05 PM   
HOUDINI1961


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i've had a problem accepting the fact that i need to be a slave. i have an internal struggle over it, it's a need vs. want thing. but, my comment is i came across this Master online who has hypnotherapy tapes that he said will help me accept my slavery. does anyone think it would?

he said to be careful because once i start listening to them and they get deeper and deeper into it, brainwashing occurs and there will be no turning back.

does anyone have any input on this subject?

thanks.

(in reply to Aswad)
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RE: MAKING someone Submissive - 3/21/2008 12:32:31 PM   
Masterssj


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While i believe '' conditioning '' can make anyone do something they may not normally do , i still believe your '' core '' beliefs and desires are what leads you to where you want to be .

One could be '' conditioned '' to be submissive in certain situation but it doesnt mean that in their heart they are nor that if that '' conditioning '' wasnt applied , that they would continue to be submissive .


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RE: MAKING someone Submissive - 3/21/2008 1:58:36 PM   
Padriag


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LotusSong

Do you think it is possible to MAKE someone submissive and if so, how would you go about it?

To answer the first part of your question, yes.

To answer the second part, the same way our environment does, by arranging events that shape who a person is and wants to be.  Here's where I part company with the bulk of the respondents.

I do not believe either dominant or submissive behavior is innate.
I do believe that like all other human behavior, both are learned.
I believe that either is the result of not only our experiences, but our perception of those experiences.
I believe that these two factors, complex as they are, are the major factors in determining most of how our personalities develop.
Thus, being submissive is a learned behavior, as is being dominant, being an asshole, being kind, being generous, being greedy, etc.
Thus I also believe any and all of these behaviors can be altered, unlearned, re-learned, etc.

The real question is whether its worthwhile... which is an entirely subjective question that depends on how much perceived reward an individual gets from the results of the process versus the expenditure of effort and resources required by the process.  As some have often said, its just easier to go find someone who already is submissive... and for most of us, it really probably is.

I find the discussion interesting however on several other points.  Partly that those who will debate for 20 pages the difference between a submissive and a slave... with nothing conclusive to show for it, will just as adamantly state that a person either is or isn't submissive, and that this is somehow separate from submissive behavior... yet they can't define any of the above.  If you can't clearly define it... how can you claim to know?

For me, and again my opinion here, we can define submissive behavior.  We can make a case that a submissive desire... or more clearly defined, an inner motiviation towards submissive behavior as a means of obtaining personal rewards in the form of satisfaction, increased self esteem, a sense of place, a sense of purpose, etc... may or may not be the motivation behind submissive behavior.  However, once we define that motivation, that inner desire, one can begin deconstructing what creates it, which is the next step in encouraging the development of those motivations in an individual.  We are all governed by some fairly basic principles of behavior, we respond to specific kinds of stimuli in various predictable ways.  When we feel hungry, we are inclined to eat... that is to engage in food acquiring behavior... why... to avoid the pangs of hunger... in other words, we eat to avoid pain.  Sometimes that goes awry, and people eat to avoid other kinds of pain (comfort foods and binge eating), or purge food or avoid eating to avoid still other pains (guilts, self esteem issues, etc.).  Understanding these various stimuli and how they each affect and control our behavior gives us power to control not only our own behavior, but that of others.

So to come back round to the question of how would I go about making someone submissive.
By understanding them, by rewarding submissive behavior and discouraging non-submissive behavior.  A process otherwise known as operant conditioning.  It not new, I didn't think of it.  Its not a miracle way of producing endless submissives... the process is limited in a variety of ways.  Limited by how well one person understands the reactions of another.  Limited by the ability of one person to control the environment of another.  Limited by the ability of one person to control all the various variables involved.

In other words, the process would always be limited and imperfect.  Imperfect processes always produce imperfect results.  So while yes, you could "make" someone become submissive in nature, forget any idea of producing the "perfect slave", the later would be very unlikely to happen.

I think also one reason so many dislike the idea that dominance or submission can be learned or created and most especially manipulated by someone else is that its a very scary idea to most.  The idea that any of us could have who we think and believe we are manipulated and changed by someone else is perhaps one of the most fundamentally threatening concepts to our self image and self esteem there could be.  Not surprisingly when you make someone that uncomfortable, you get very strong reactions... usually very strongly defensive and sometimes outright aggressive.

But, what do I know... just my opinion after all.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to LotusSong)
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RE: MAKING someone Submissive - 3/21/2008 3:46:50 PM   
MasterDarell


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Once again we're back to the whole nature vs. nurture debate, and the real question is, what makes someone submissive in the first place?

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RE: MAKING someone Submissive - 3/21/2008 4:52:33 PM   
Padriag


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I already, briefly, answered that.  To recap, who we are is born out of our needs and how we learn to have those needs satisfied.  To extend my food example, if you learned that the best way to get food was to hunt it, you'd tend to go hunting to find food.  If you learned growing up that the best way to get food was to beg, you'd tend to beg.  The rest of human behavior, though complex, operates on that same simple principle.  We adopt behaviors because we have learned them to be successful strategies in securing that which we need or desire.  Some do that by being bullies, assholes, etc.  Some do it by being submissive, passive, compromising, etc.  Some do it through self reliance, independence, etc.  But being the complex creatures that we are, so are our behaviors.  We might learn that being aggressive is successful in having one need met... and that being submissive works for a different need.. producing someone who is neither wholely submissive nor dominant nor anything else... but an amalgam of various behaviors learned at different times in their life in response to different needs.  Complicating that even further, all this changes... we are living beings, and all living things are in a constant state of change.  Our needs change, and thus our behaviors change as we adapt (however quickly or slowly, poorly or successfully) to those changing needs and circumstances.  Who we are today is not exactly the same as who we were yesterday, nor who we will be tomorrow... none of us is ever the same one day to the next, though the difference may be so miniscule it passes notice.

A submissive can learn to become dominant... a dominant learn to be submissive... a vanilla learn to be either... all of the above learn to be switches... and endless permutations thereof.  But I suspect that rattles too many people too much for them to ever accept.  It tears away the boundaries, the nice neat labels so many seem to love to argue about, leaving no more boxes to sort people into.  To paraphrase the Matrix... the trick is to realize that there is no box.  Suddenly being submissive or dominant isn't so special... cause heck, anyone could learn to do it.  It strips away all that romanticized, mysterious drivel that gets heaped on with a laddle.  People don't like that... they like their labels, their illusions and delusions... they want all this to be special, to somehow be better, to be more... its part of the fantasy and romanticism so many hold about BDSM.  So long as people insist on clinging to their supositions without rational evidence to support it, these discussions will continually go round and round and never ever get anywhere.  There have been hundreds of discussions on this sort of topic already, there will be hundreds more... my guess is they'll all end the same way the previous hundreds did.... we'll agree to disagree... at best.

To return to the original question once more, consider this simple example.  I tend to inspire submissive behavior in others, they're responding to my own nature, my own character traits.  There is a clerk at a store here, she's quite cute and I rather fancy her.  I flirt with her a bit whenever I shop there.  Recently I was going to ask her out, something I'm sure she has been waiting for for weeks.  Unfortunately the night I intended to ask her out, I found out she smokes... something to which I am allergic and don't tolerate.  But not one to just give up I turned it around.  I told her, while still flirting, I'd take her out to dinner anywhere she wants when she quits smoking.  So now she's trying to quit.  Apparently she does want to go out with me (who knows why LOL).  To get what she wants she's learning to adopt a change in her behavior, or more precisely to give up a behavior.  In doing so she is also exhibiting submissiveness towards me... not precisely in the BDSM sense, she's not begging me to tie her up... yet.  But one thing can and often does lead to another, given time and building one behavior, one conditioning, on another... this could get quite interesting... or not... it is after all an imperfect process and will likely have imperfect results. 

I see this sort of change all the time... and one of the most blatant are the submissives who suddenly "discover" their dominant side.  They didn't discover anything... they began adopting a new behavior because the old behavior was no longer effectively getting a need met or they discovered  new effective way of getting a need met.  Maybe it was because of a dominant who broke their trust one time too many, maybe they had an experience with another submissive and learned through that experience that behaving in a sexually dominant manner worked for them too, could be an very long list of possibilities.  But they all have two things in common... experience and perception of that experience.  Its just people changing, learning, growing, exploring who they are and can be... and some few learning they can be a lot more than they thought.

But then I always liked what Edison said,"If we were to do all that we are capable of, we would astound ourselves."  He was right.

But like I said, its just my opinion... however strongly and firmly stated it may be... take it or leave it as you please.

_____________________________

Padriag

A stern discipline pervades all nature, which is a little cruel so that it may be very kind - Edmund Spencer

(in reply to MasterDarell)
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RE: MAKING someone Submissive - 3/21/2008 7:02:27 PM   
erebus


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Yes, it is possible.  One can break a person's spirit and mind, and rebuild them the way that you would like.  However, it is inhumane and evil, and has no place in this lifestyle. 

Haven't you heard of Stockholm syndrome?  It isn't exactly what you are saying but similar.

People who would do this should be in prison or worse.

(in reply to boytoy4female)
Profile   Post #: 37
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