RE: The Prodical Slave (Full Version)

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HotLover -> RE: The Prodical Slave (10/1/2005 6:34:23 AM)

No she should not be Punished sp? for leaving. Be Forgiving & Caring & glad that she came back.



LadyJulieAnn -> RE: The Prodical Slave (10/1/2005 7:05:14 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: RainGod
No, it's only happened the once. It is the desire to not get into a repeat cycle that I seek advice on which path to take upon accepting her back. I haven't ever had this happen before, so I am unfamiliar with what to do. Usually, and if she were anyone else, there would be no coming back, but I feel strongly about this one.


I believe that you are the only one in control of whether this develops into a "repeat cycle". It sounds like she made the decision to back off and cut off communication, and then realized that she needed you again. If she has set a timetable for things to change in her situation, I think at this point all you can do is sit back and wait for that "deadline" to come. If things still haven't changed, you can then decide if you want to continue in a situation that will not allow you the relationship you desire. It's not easy to let go of something you really want, but if things are out of your control and are not changing, then sometimes it's best to move on.

I don't think it's a situation where punishment is needed. She is probably punishing herself enough mentally, knowing she hurt you.

I wish you luck,
Julie



needs2serve -> RE: The Prodical Slave (10/1/2005 7:25:45 AM)



quote:

Your second question is more than a little unsettling at best (and down right damming at worst). I am not so much concerned with the question itself so much as the context in which it is asked. You seem to be under the impression that a female slave is some kind of a child who has to be taught the difference between right and wrong. Based upon this I can only draw one of two conclusions:
1) You, like the vast majority of "gorean masters" i've come across, function under the highly flawed (to say nothing of sexist) idea that women are somehow lesser creatures and as such they must be taught, defended, protected, and generally looked after by a "big strong man".
OR
2) Thus far you have only been successful in drawing to you women who are in fact unable to take care of themselves, make their own decisions, or even understand the difference between right and wrong.


DK - I appreciate your defense of women argument, however I think you may be off base on this one. I never felt like a "child" when I myself felt I deserved punishment for not only perpetrating the deception after our split, but for being responsible for that breakup at all. In retrospect, punishment probably is not appropriate in this case, because it was no defiance or disobedience that was in play, but.......weaknesses and failings I have yet to learn how to, dare I say it, "control". I know RainGod loves me, and I know he seriously considers his responsibilities as my Master, and since I was the one that original brought the word "punishment" into my "coming bacK", I think he felt that he needed to weigh that as well. I don't see him as sexist........I do see him as Dominant. If we are talking about a Domme in the same context, would that make her sexist as well? And speaking as a flesh and blood feminine type of submissive, I kinda like the idea of a "big strong man" teaching, defending, protecting and looking after me and my best interest. I wouldn't have it any other way. I am perfectly CAPABLE of taking care of myself, but God what a relief when I don't have to do it alone or that I can just "obey" sometimes and not have to "decide". It's part of what appealed to me about a D/s relationship in the first place.

Someone in a few posts back brought up the idea that punishment might be something the submissive desires in order to "atone" for what she feels she did wrong, and for closure. I thought about that and I can relate that a part of me felt that I needed to prove I was prepared for that and would submit to that, after I had failed so miserably before. However, now that I have been forgiven, and we are making an effort to communicate better, I have let that go and the only thing I have to prove is that I am going to make my best effort to not repeat my mistakes. Know what I mean?

I would never EVER consider RainGod sexist. He is PERFECT in my bok.



Auralise -> RE: The Prodical Slave (10/1/2005 7:41:51 AM)

Dear Mistress Jasmyn,

i just wanted to take a moment and tell You how impressed i was with Your answer. It was short - it needed not be long. When combined with the quote on Your signature block, the totality was nothing short of profound.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder - our perception alone.

Thank You,

auralise



RavenofPK -> RE: The Prodical Slave (10/1/2005 8:34:44 AM)

Greetings,

The answer is simply discard her. The moment she took it upon *herself* to excercise *her* will over yours, she became a liability. She will do it again. She failed, and is expendable. Sure......there are things that happen that can be forgiven. Failure is not one of them.

That old saying of "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me" comes to mind.



maybemaybenot -> RE: The Prodical Slave (10/1/2005 8:48:38 AM)

quote:

That old saying of "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me" comes to mind.


I believe she has ony ***fooled*** him once.

Failure cannot be forgiven?

Without failure one would learn no lessons.

Like many I misinterpretted the OP.. he asked soley about punishment, not whether or not he should take her back.

maybemaybenot



RavenofPK -> RE: The Prodical Slave (10/1/2005 8:58:21 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot


I believe she has ony ***fooled*** him once.



I understand that. I was speaking of preventive maintinance.



Evanesce -> RE: The Prodical Slave (10/1/2005 9:09:41 AM)

quote:

I would never EVER consider RainGod sexist. He is PERFECT in my bok.


And in the long run, that's really all that matters. That YOU and HE are happy and comfortable within the dynamics of your own relationship. Others can judge and misinterpret all they want, but at the end of the day, what you and he think of your relationship is what's going to keep it together or break it apart.

I, for one, having read everything the two of you have said here, think you've got a good chance of keeping it together, and I wish you the very best of luck.

Denise
the Kaptin's wench



maybemaybenot -> RE: The Prodical Slave (10/1/2005 9:12:14 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenofPK


quote:

ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot


I believe she has ony ***fooled*** him once.



I understand that. I was speaking of preventive maintinance.


I believe what that saying means is.. if some one * fools* you and then the * fooling* recurs, it is becasue you did not take the corrective action needed to prevent it's recurrance.

That is what I meant when I posted in reply to you, not understanding your interpretation of it.



maybemaybenot



MstrHellsFury -> RE: The Prodical Slave (10/1/2005 1:32:07 PM)

this thread has been posted for several days... so what my opinion may be...lags behind all the others...still...I'm sitting here...thinking...and this is without any disrespect intended...(without knowledge of you length of time within the life)...as a Dominant...seeking to have someone come an present themselves to you as a submissive to you...had you not considered the exit of that person for reasons other than death...I'm not trying to be flip about this...but I won't pat you on the head and say..poor baby...we...by the very position we take..and the acceptance of others say...I've given this a great deal of thought...and now I'm taking action....(being the collaring or what have you of another)...but it's through their eyes that they see our strength and guidance...love and acceptence of them and what they bring to our lives...this is the reason I wonder why you have to ask for answers to a question you should already have and answer for...(been away from the posts so long it sounds like a rant)..but it's just my thoughts..and my opinion...


Fury



Awakener -> RE: The Prodical Slave (10/1/2005 2:01:36 PM)

Ok for what it is worth here are my feelings on this.

You do not like to punish. Well of course not, if your slave requires punishment it is a reflection of your own failure. I'm not talking counting out the caneing strokes for little crap. This issue is not like that. And I'm sorry but you have to punish her. However this does not ned o be horrible. Her behaviour though needs modifying. She needs your guidence and discipline or this is all pointless.
From her words she honestly sems to wsh to let go to you rain God. this is a dificult thing to do, if it were not it would not be so fantastically beautiful an act. In order for her to surrender herself to you, you must guide her. She was unable to come to you with this isue she had, and that is not the problem. the problem was she shut down and failed to communicate with you.
I feel you must set some rules down. It is ok if she needs to control this or that, it is ok if at present she can not come to about this or that. However she must at least come to you and tell you that there is such an issue.
You may be her Master but you are no mind reader. If she had told you "Master I have a problem, I am finding it hard to let go of something and i can't even bring myslef to discuss it with you". Her problem then is her own, and you as M/s can address your collective problem.
She is not ready for a Collar RainGod. This in it's self is a punishment. Yet I feel more is required. But as i am not you and do not own her i can not tell you what this may be. I can tell you that it is behaviour modification that should be the goal, and that punihment does not mean physical pain. Often physical pain is useless in this sort of situation. This is a menta issue, and requires something that can shift her mind to better suit her Master.
She is unstable, this is something you both have said. I would suggest addressing whatever issues and forms this unstability take. I'd like to give examples but it is just so personal a thing, so dependent on who and what.
A stricter M/s relationship I think is in order.

Well I could probably ramble on, but i think i've gotten the gist of my feelings across. If not I'm always willing to keep on yacking.




RainGod -> RE: The Prodical Slave (10/1/2005 2:17:58 PM)

quote:

The answer is simply discard her.


No, sorry. Isn't going to happen.

quote:

The moment she took it upon *herself* to excercise *her* will over yours, she became a liability.


A liability?? How do you figure that? A pain in the ass, maybe. But no she isn't a liability.

quote:

She will do it again.


she says she will not, and is willing to try her best. I am willing to give her that amount of blind faith. If it be risky, so be it.

quote:

She failed,


Sorry, but in My sight, failure is only born when someone has ceased to try. she stumbled... she came back. Thats isn't failure, its courage.

and is expendable.

lmao! Not even close. No human is expendable. That isn't how I do business.

quote:

Sure......there are things that happen that can be forgiven. Failure is not one of them.


I am sorry to have to say this, but out of all the advice I recieved here, yours is furthest from what I feel was even close to what I needed to do. Thanks anyways.

That old saying of "Fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me" comes to mind.



RainGod -> RE: The Prodical Slave (10/1/2005 2:26:10 PM)

maybemaybenot posted:

quote:

Like many I misinterpretted the OP.. he asked soley about punishment, not whether or not he should take her back.


To be quite honest... I already knew in My heart I was going to take her back. My question was how to punish her... or maybe what price she should pay for coming back. I was thinking closemindedly... Until you all gave Me other options and other ways of seeing things. I am grateful.
I am learning to learn new ways. Does that make any sense?



RainGod -> RE: The Prodical Slave (10/1/2005 2:37:54 PM)

Fury posts:

quote:

had you not considered the exit of that person for reasons other than death


Exiting is one thing. One does not usually expect one who runs away to come back... My question was should she pay a price for running. Of course I know in reality she can leave again anytime she wishes... but this time there would be no coming back. I am not so stupid I cannot appreciate the risk of her departure for reasons other than death.

quote:

...I'm not trying to be flip about this...but I won't pat you on the head and say..poor baby...


yeah, that might be a bad idea.... I might start humping your leg. Anybody got a Milkbone?

quote:

..this is the reason I wonder why you have to ask for answers to a question you should already have and answer for...(been away from the posts so long it sounds like a rant)..but it's just my thoughts..and my opinion...


Just because I am a Master does not mean I am also a god. I am not infallible. I am prone to sickness, sorrow, and yes, even confusion sometimes. Anyone who can stand here and say He, as a Master, always, but always has the right answer to every question would be both a liar and a fool. I saw no reason to not seek the advice of My peers here... especially when there are some of great many years of experience and worldly wisdom. I am not ashamed to ask advice or assistance when I need it. No one should be.



RainGod -> RE: The Prodical Slave (10/1/2005 2:48:03 PM)

Awakener wrote:

quote:

You do not like to punish. Well of course not, if your slave requires punishment it is a reflection of your own failure.


Damn. You know, I never thought of it, but you're absolutely correct. In a sense, a slave's transgression is only a mirror reflection of My neglect. Very profound, Awakener, thanks.

quote:

She is not ready for a Collar RainGod. This in it's self is a punishment. Yet I feel more is required.


Agreed she is not ready...yet. But she continues to try, and that is what I need to see. I cannot think of any punishment worse than she has put herself through. I suppose if I am wrong, she may simply run again, but looking into her eyes I believe she is here to stick it out this time. I have to give her that benefit of the doubt. I have to try and trust. I am and I will.

quote:

She is unstable, this is something you both have said. I would suggest addressing whatever issues and forms this unstability take. I'd like to give examples but it is just so personal a thing, so dependent on who and what.
A stricter M/s relationship I think is in order.


Indeed she is unstable somewhat. There is a very large obstacle in her life causing 99% of that right now, and she and I have had that talk, and there are definite works going right now to remove her from the situation causing her to be unstable. Only time will tell, but we are going to work together on it diligently.

Awakener, your ideas are always welcome, and if they're too personal, email them to Me. The only bad idea is the one not considered.

Indeed, she is experiencing a much stricter M/s relationship than the one before, but it is something we are having to gradually ease into.

Thanks!



RainGod -> RE: The Prodical Slave (10/1/2005 7:14:21 PM)

needs2serve wrote:

quote:

I really don't want to control some of these things in my life. It would be so liberating to "let go". But it is a lifetime habit, and sometimes I do it without even realizing I am doing it. He did forgive me, but I know he still struggles with what he sees as my instability with regard to my situation. His concern is not without merit. I am frightened too. We have laid out a few ground rules so as to prevent an unintentional "breakup" in the future from repeating itself.


...and as time passes, we will work on your desire to grab back control. Indeed, you have had to maintain control for so long for all the wrong reasons, but now the time has come for you to learn to let go and let Me carry the baggage that is too heavy for you to carry.



kimmypuss -> RE: The Prodical Slave (10/1/2005 9:19:09 PM)

I like the idea of a "big strong man" too - and I aint Gorean

[:)][:D]



denimknight -> RE: The Prodical Slave (10/2/2005 5:27:05 PM)

quote:

Concerning misinformation, I find it rather odd that you are alone in your misdiagnosis. Did ya notice that?


Honestly, I noticed it in passing, but wasn't very concerned. I think what I think; other people think what they think. I am not afraid of presenting my own ideas and being the only one who holds them.

quote:

I think you had best understand this lifestyle a bit better before you go confusing teaching ethical values to a slave by her Master with His being "sexist". If she consents to being taught, what's the problem? You seem to not be very tolerant of the ways of others... especially when you use words like sexist.



You may be right. I am new to this path, but I walk it with my eyes open and as such I see things. Based upon the writings of numerous modern feminist authors the very idea that you believe yourself to be able to teach a women (slave or otherwise) proper ethical values is in and of itself a sexist principal. Now as it is normally applied this idea is used to dispute the legislative restriction of abortion rights on the grounds that it, in effect, says that government must step in and restrict the rights of women on moral grounds because women are not capable of making ethical decisions on their own. Now then, this is the opinion of some admittedly left wing authors, and it may or may not be applicable in the context of an M/s relationship. There’s also the matter of how you and I likely define sexist as a term. You come from a generation with very different ideas about such matters than that of my own and thus the perceptions we have will be different. Nevertheless if one uses a technical definition of the word http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sexism
Then the concept that you have a greater competency in the ethical/moral arena (and thus have any capability to teach her such things) is in and of itself sexist.
Now then you may have a social contract within the confines of your relationship which gives you the authorization to teach such things, but based upon a technical definition of the word your assumption that you have any capability to do so (if indeed based upon her biological sex) is by it's very nature sexist.

It may well be that the M/s relationship dynamic as it is traditionally applied is inherently a sexist power dynamic. Though that is another discussion for another time. As new generations with unique social and cultural ideates emerge in this Lifestyle we may well see a fundamental shift in how such relationships are defined and conducted. Again this is likely another discussion for another time.

Now then moving onto your discussion of consent. This is dangerous territory to move into in many ways. Just because one consents to something does not mean it is not sexist or even ethically acceptable. I have heard more women than I wish to recall loudly declare how deeply their husband loves them, all while holding what was left of their bloody and broken noses (did some minor work in women's shelters). This is not to say that I think you physically abuse women (not beyond the degree inherent in BDSM scene anyway). Truth be told I have reason to believe that you're not a bad guy for the most part.

What I do believe is that it is dangerous to confuse consensual conduct with ethical conduct.

respectfully submitted
dk



denimknight -> RE: The Prodical Slave (10/2/2005 5:44:54 PM)

quote:

Uh denimknight I really do not think you have any concept of what a M/s relationship is. A Master is a parent and so very very much more.


And you may be right, at least as far as a traditional hetro master/hetro female slave M/s dynamic is concerned. However, I fail to see how the idea of being a parent is inherent in every M/s relationship. I've known a great many female dominants for which the idea of serving as a "mommy" was highly distasteful to them. If anything they valued a slave's ability to function on their own.

I have found that this idea that a slave needs a dominant in order to function from day to day is found in a proportionally larger percentage of the herto male dominants than in any other demographic. This percentage is even larger in those hetro male dominants over the age of 30.

Of course I may also be making an assumption about what you mean when you say "parent". Please elaborate on how you define the "parent" roll of the dominant; I would be very interested to gather new data.

Respectfully submitted
dk



denimknight -> RE: The Prodical Slave (10/2/2005 5:51:02 PM)

quote:

Indeed, you have had to maintain control for so long for all the wrong reasons, but now the time has come for you to learn to let go and let Me carry the baggage that is too heavy for you to carry.


RainGod, respectfully, don't you have any concern that this kind of attitude regarding your relationship with a slave is bound to create a dynamic of unhealthy dependency.
A desire to help her grow strong enough to deal with her own seems like it would be far more helpful to her in the long run. Attempting to deal with her problems for her seems highly counterproductive to say nothing of actively feeding a codependent relationship.

Respectfully submitted
dk



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