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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/29/2005 8:05:29 AM   
frenchpet


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< Message edited by frenchpet -- 9/29/2005 2:22:21 PM >

(in reply to leatherylace)
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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/29/2005 9:02:55 AM   
Faramir


Posts: 1043
Joined: 2/12/2005
Status: offline 		Sexual slavery is as old as warfare.

Do you mean when do people start using the motifs and symbols of M/s in consensual power relationships?

Even as early as 19th century Victorian erotica, you have a lot of power themes, but no M/s motifs or symbols.

London writes specifically about M/s relationships, but they are not erotic, that's the beggining of the 20th century.

I know by the 1950's we had "harem girl" motifs under the radar in America, using "Master/slave" langauge (how many people creamed their shorts the first time they saw "I Dream of Jeanie" and she said "But I only want to please you Master!" ?).

I think a lot of the current terminology is very recent - TPE and "Internal Enslavement" - are from the early 1990's - cyber origin.

quote:

ORIGINAL: leatherylace

Where does actual slavery come into BDsM. The M/s dynamic was in black history was definatly not consensual. I once had a converstaoin with my mom (vanilla) who was saying that it was wrong and immoral to even act out consensually the M/s dynamic.



(in reply to leatherylace)
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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/29/2005 9:06:36 AM   
WickedKev


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quote:

ORIGINAL: leatherylace

Where does actual slavery come into BDsM. The M/s dynamic was in black history was definatly not consensual. I once had a converstaoin with my mom (vanilla) who was saying that it was wrong and immoral to even act out consensually the M/s dynamic.



You can't put todays morality upon history for morality changes. In Victorian England, it was legal that you could beat your wife with a stick as long as it was no thicker than your thumb, hence the term rule of thumb. Consenual I would say is a modern term, and because slavery back in history was forced, makes it no less valid. We still use ownership, and property terms only we did not buy them, our slaves gave themselves to us. There are many documented cases of slaves being fiercely loyal to Masters and Mistresses even defending them with thier lives, thier slavery may not have been consenual but do you think perhaps they found thier true selves within it?
Keep gonig back to medieval times with the torture chambers, aspects of it we use today but not to the extremes they did back then. A part of BDSM no, but maybe one of the foundations, for we call where we play a dungeon, we use things like the rack, the stocks. the pillery post to name but a few. The differance is today we use them for pleasure, but without the purposes they were orginally used for would we have them today? Ok enough my head hurts now.....

< Message edited by WickedKev -- 9/29/2005 9:32:18 AM >

(in reply to leatherylace)
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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/29/2005 9:09:46 AM   
thetammyjo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedKev

The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire, I Claudius by Robert Graves (Based on the writings of the times) Writings of Cicero, Documentries (Just had a good series on that over here) Anything I can read about Rome (Guess I love the coruption.


So tempted to start talking but I won't......

The historian in me is freaking out though.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to WickedKev)
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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/29/2005 9:11:21 AM   
thetammyjo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NakedOnMyChain

BDSM has been around for the entirety of history. If you look at various aspects of history (the Crusades, the Inquisition, etc.) all the key elements are there. It would be interesting to go back through some of our high school history textbooks and read them for BDSM context. We'd be shocked.


Again the historian in me is freaking out!

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to NakedOnMyChain)
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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/29/2005 9:12:55 AM   
thetammyjo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: leatherylace

Where does actual slavery come into BDsM. The M/s dynamic was in black history was definatly not consensual. I once had a converstaoin with my mom (vanilla) who was saying that it was wrong and immoral to even act out consensually the M/s dynamic.



For me, it is consent, mutual consent, and the ability to consent and withdraw consent that defines BDSM as something unique and different from other things that may look at "kink" in the past.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to leatherylace)
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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/29/2005 9:25:37 AM   
WickedKev


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Joined: 11/26/2004
Status: offline 		Fiction based on fact such as I Claudius by Robert Graves used alot of the writings of the times that we know of. I put the Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire as I thought it might be a good grounding in Roman history but it has been many many years since I read it. And of course Cisero lived through it but he was like todays journilists proned to embellishing his stories. And for sitting here with a stinking cold in the early hours of the morning trying to think of sources for people to read thought I did alright. Any sources you can think of please give. WK

< Message edited by WickedKev -- 9/29/2005 9:28:06 AM >

(in reply to thetammyjo)
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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/29/2005 9:59:43 AM   
JohnWarren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

quote:

ORIGINAL: NakedOnMyChain

BDSM has been around for the entirety of history. If you look at various aspects of history (the Crusades, the Inquisition, etc.) all the key elements are there. It would be interesting to go back through some of our high school history textbooks and read them for BDSM context. We'd be shocked.

Again the historian in me is freaking out!


DAMN IT, TAMMY. You ARE an expert. You know the scene and you are a professional academic historian. Don't you think you have a duty???

[Chuckling to myself: "That'll get her!"]


_____________________________

www.lovingdominant.org

(in reply to thetammyjo)
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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/29/2005 10:22:17 AM   
sanita


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir


Even as early as 19th century Victorian erotica, you have a lot of power themes, but no M/s motifs or symbols.


If i understand this correctly, i disagree a bit.

i have been reading Victorian erotica since i was around 11 (i have always been a perv). In particular, a compilation of an underground publication called "The Pearl" has stories that are relayed in serial style, that involve M/s, D/s, and a whole bunch of BDSM. The series of letters entitled "Miss Coote's Confession" was all about an extremely sadistic Dominatrix and her conquests. There were several more stories that touched on the practices, and some with marital ownership. One recurring "activity" in most all of these stories was birching. Anyway, i have seen that motif in a lot of Victorian erotica.

_____________________________

Sometimes, He calls me "subbie." Sometimes, i call me "subbie." And if someone wants to call me a BBW, its flattering. Just don't call me false.

"Please do not show me your ass and expect me to read your mind." -Opencollar

(in reply to Faramir)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/29/2005 10:37:02 AM   
Lordandmaster


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Status: offline 		Am I right that no one has mentioned Sacher-Masoch?

BDSM has certainly not been around since the beginning of time--any more than homosexuality has been around since the beginning of time. There have been people tying each other up and whipping each other since the beginning of time (just as there have been people having sexual intercourse with members of the same sex), but the idea of being "in the life(style)" as opposed to "vanilla" (just like the idea of being "gay" as opposed to "straight") is no older than the nineteenth century at the earliest. It's not a question of the things people do to have kinky sex; it's a question of how people relate their sexual preferences to their identity. That's what is called "sexuality," and it didn't exist before the late eighteenth century--more like the nineteenth.

In other words, I'm sure someone in ancient Greece tied up his wife and fucked her. That alone does not make him one of us.

< Message edited by Lordandmaster -- 9/29/2005 10:44:51 AM >

(in reply to sanita)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/29/2005 11:02:36 AM   
thetammyjo


Posts: 6322
Joined: 9/8/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

DAMN IT, TAMMY. You ARE an expert. You know the scene and you are a professional academic historian. Don't you think you have a duty???

[Chuckling to myself: "That'll get her!"]



I think my earlier definition of mutual consent says how I make my historical judgements.

Now if folks want books on slavery, or sexual behavior, or other such things from the ancient world (Greece, Roman, Egypt, and the Near East) I could provide some reading suggestions but I don't see BDSM in any of them.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to JohnWarren)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/29/2005 11:08:17 AM   
thetammyjo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedKev

Fiction based on fact such as I Claudius by Robert Graves used alot of the writings of the times that we know of. I put the Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire as I thought it might be a good grounding in Roman history but it has been many many years since I read it. And of course Cisero lived through it but he was like todays journilists proned to embellishing his stories. And for sitting here with a stinking cold in the early hours of the morning trying to think of sources for people to read thought I did alright. Any sources you can think of please give. WK


Actually, just a note, not meant to sound rude, but Cicero was dead before the imperial system was established, Marcus Antonius had him "blacklisted".

Most of the general histories of Rome don't spend much time on sexual acts, attitudes or even slavery frankly -- not considered "polite" or "general" history. More specialized studies do look at these things but I stick by my earlier statement, without mutual consent it isn't BDSM.

Now, I personally use some of the philosophical ideas from the Roman world and the positions in upper class Roman households to create my training and my household. That's just me using the information today, not me making any claims of the historical nature of kink.

_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

(in reply to WickedKev)
Profile   Post #: 32
RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/29/2005 11:20:50 AM   
night101owl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedKev
Fiction based on fact such as I Claudius by Robert Graves used alot of the writings of the times that we know of.


"I, Claudius" was primarily based on one ancient source, Suetonius, who wasn't even born until half a century past the time he wrote about. Contemporary historical documentation of the Julio-Claudian dynasty pretty much fails to exist, which the exception of Augustus's rule. Therefore, for accounts of Caligula's and other's actual rules, we have to rely on fairly hostile anecdotes by their politcal enemies.

"I, Claudius" is great fun as a work of fiction, and you've got to see the BBC version of it, but I wouldn't cite it for historical fact.

(in reply to WickedKev)
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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/29/2005 11:27:57 AM   
night101owl


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Joined: 8/15/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
Actually, just a note, not meant to sound rude, but Cicero was dead before the imperial system was established, Marcus Antonius had him "blacklisted".


But hey, weren't Cicero's head and hands cut off and hung from the rostrum? Doesn't that count as BDSM?
;)

Seriously, though, I agree. There are all sorts of accounts of violence and slavery throughout history, but it would be wrong to look at every time one person hit another and cite that as part of BDSM history. Without consent, and the subversion that the consent works on the violence/enslavement, it's not BDSM.


(in reply to thetammyjo)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/29/2005 11:39:37 AM   
Lordandmaster


Posts: 10943
Joined: 6/22/2004
Status: offline 		Yes, I agree.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

Now if folks want books on slavery, or sexual behavior, or other such things from the ancient world (Greece, Roman, Egypt, and the Near East) I could provide some reading suggestions but I don't see BDSM in any of them.


(in reply to thetammyjo)
Profile   Post #: 35
RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/29/2005 12:10:49 PM   
Faramir


Posts: 1043
Joined: 2/12/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: sanita

If i understand this correctly, i disagree a bit.

i have been reading Victorian erotica since i was around 11 (i have always been a perv). In particular, a compilation of an underground publication called "The Pearl" has stories that are relayed in serial style, that involve M/s, D/s, and a whole bunch of BDSM. The series of letters entitled "Miss Coote's Confession" was all about an extremely sadistic Dominatrix and her conquests. There were several more stories that touched on the practices, and some with marital ownership. One recurring "activity" in most all of these stories was birching. Anyway, i have seen that motif in a lot of Victorian erotica.


I was specifically thinking of "The Pearl" when I wrote that - I can't remember a single story that had M/s motifs. As I mentioned, the stories there are very much about power - D/s and SM galore - but I don't think any of the stories had M/s motifs - but maybe I have forgotten. Can you think of a particular story in the Pearl that was specifically M/s in its motifs?

(in reply to sanita)
Profile   Post #: 36
RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/29/2005 12:17:45 PM   
Faramir


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quote:

ORIGINAL: WickedKev
In Victorian England, it was legal that you could beat your wife with a stick as long as it was no thicker than your thumb, hence the term rule of thumb.


I've heard many variants of that rule of thumb story (people around here say it was a colonial law in NC). It kind of sounds like an urban legend. Do you know the actual name and date of the law? I know of a legal case (1840) when there is a judicail decision that supports a husband's wife to imprison her and beat her "in moderation," but I wonder about the ole rule of thumb. Anyone know?

(in reply to WickedKev)
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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/29/2005 12:18:56 PM   
JohnWarren


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From: Delray Beach, FL
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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnWarren

DAMN IT, TAMMY. You ARE an expert. You know the scene and you are a professional academic historian. Don't you think you have a duty???

[Chuckling to myself: "That'll get her!"]


I think my earlier definition of mutual consent says how I make my historical judgements.

Now if folks want books on slavery, or sexual behavior, or other such things from the ancient world (Greece, Roman, Egypt, and the Near East) I could provide some reading suggestions but I don't see BDSM in any of them.


Now, that's better, but I do know you REALLY want to scream.

[chuckles]

_____________________________

www.lovingdominant.org

(in reply to thetammyjo)
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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/29/2005 2:04:25 PM   
night101owl


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Joined: 8/15/2005
Status: offline 		The "rule of thumb" myth, that it was based on English domestic violence law, is just a myth. There is no basis for it in law or history. I think snopes has something on it.

(in reply to Faramir)
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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/29/2005 2:21:56 PM   
frenchpet


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Joined: 8/19/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: night101owl

The "rule of thumb" myth, that it was based on English domestic violence law, is just a myth. There is no basis for it in law or history. I think snopes has something on it.

I think snopes HAD something about it, but anyway, yes, this story was probably brought by feminists. Some people find it funny (or useful to their purpose) to invent stories that are designed to make you feel bad when using simple phrases (and to show how unfair the society has been for centuries). Of course "picnic" has nothing to do with the urban legend (the word comes from France, and not even the south of France...). If you want to stop using a word that was meant to be insulting, try to replace "Eskimo" by "Inuit". Apparently "eskimo" was the word used by Algonquian people to talk about the raw meat eaters. "Inuit" is the name Inuits give themselves.

< Message edited by frenchpet -- 9/29/2005 2:35:23 PM >

(in reply to night101owl)
Profile   Post #: 40
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