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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/30/2005 12:07:21 PM

Lordandmaster

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People who are seriously interested in Greek homosexuality need to read the classic book by K.J. Dover--called, not coincidentally, Greek Homosexuality. Two of the many points it makes that are relevant to this thread are that it was certainly found in Athens, and that intercrural intercourse was not simply a euphemism.

Oh, and a third point: calling two Greek men who had sex with each other a "gay couple" is totally anachronistic.

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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/30/2005 12:14:13 PM

Lordandmaster

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Got any evidence for this? There are plenty of contemporary indications to the contrary, as I'm sure you know. It was a standard Athenian ploy to pretend that pederasty was INVENTED by the Dorians.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

Sparta was quite different and didn't practice pederasty at all.

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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/30/2005 12:50:45 PM

ElektraUkM

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I knew I was so right to bring up that topic...

~ Elektra (PhD in Ancient History and Archaeology, for the record

~ hence the name... and you were all thinking I was a fan of the film... )

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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/30/2005 12:54:39 PM

thetammyjo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Got any evidence for this? There are plenty of contemporary indications to the contrary, as I'm sure you know. It was a standard Athenian ploy to pretend that pederasty was INVENTED by the Dorians.

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

Sparta was quite different and didn't practice pederasty at all.

Athenians wrote a lot about Sparta, usually either as an enemy or as an ideal state. What Athenians claim should always be viewed through their political lens.

As I said what we have from Spartan men is very very limited because they frankly didn't read or write.

It seems that all evidence which does survive points to age-peer male-male relationships, by the closeness in age, they are not pederastic.

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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/30/2005 12:56:35 PM

thetammyjo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ElektraUkM

I knew I was so right to bring up that topic...

~ Elektra (PhD in Ancient History and Archaeology, for the record ~ hence the name... and you were all thinking I was a fan of the film... )

Are you currently in the field?

I'm finishing my PhD in ancient history and currently on the job market.

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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/30/2005 1:19:58 PM

ElektraUkM

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

quote:

ORIGINAL: ElektraUkM

I knew I was so right to bring up that topic...

~ Elektra (PhD in Ancient History and Archaeology, for the record ~ hence the name... and you were all thinking I was a fan of the film... )

Are you currently in the field?

I'm finishing my PhD in ancient history and currently on the job market.

Yes and no. Graduated in 1998 and was lecturing till a couple of years ago when personal 'stuff' took over my life. I may go 'back' to lecturing at some point, but at the moment I am working on not doing that. Academia doesn't suit me. Current project is a contribution to a book on the Sophists. I must admit it was great to see another Ancient Historian on the boards

~ Elektra

< Message edited by ElektraUkM -- 9/30/2005 1:21:33 PM >

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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/30/2005 2:02:29 PM

night101owl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

People who are seriously interested in Greek homosexuality need to read the classic book by K.J. Dover--called, not coincidentally, Greek Homosexuality.

It's been a while since I abandoned my graduate studies in Classics (love Latin, hate teaching it), but I seem to remember that Dover was the subject of a lot of controversy in the academic world. I can't remember, though, if it was due to personal drama or shady research.

Edited to add-- I think it wasn't so much bad research, as it was some questionable conclusions he'd jump to, following the research. Plus personal drama. Now that I've remembered something I can't quite remember, my curiosity is up.

< Message edited by night101owl -- 9/30/2005 2:04:26 PM >

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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/30/2005 4:45:04 PM

Lordandmaster

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Dover's book is recognized by every classicist, and by most historians (not all, since not all historians know it), as a watershed. Not everyone agrees with it, of course, and even those who are persuaded by it don't buy ALL of his arguments, but it has to be Book No. 1 on any reading list. Everything that has come afterwards has referred back to it intensely.

The astonishing thing about Dover is how well his book has stood the test of time. It was written decades ago, and when you reread it today, with all the methodological advances that have come in the field of the history of sexuality, it is very impressive to see all the potential pitfalls that Dover managed to avoid.

More recently, the work of David Halperin has been very influential. This is his website at the University of Michigan, where you can find references to his various publications.

http://www.lsa.umich.edu/english/faculty/fibDetail.asp?ID=254

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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/30/2005 11:18:41 PM

frenchpet

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a couple years ago I read the first book about ancient Sparta that had been written in french in about a century. It claimed that it contained all the current knowledge about ancient Sparta. I would say it was... thin. Even the well known stories about the survival of the fittest aren't clarified. I don't remember anything about sexuality. These guys really didn't write much

.

< Message edited by frenchpet -- 9/30/2005 11:19:48 PM >

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RE: BDsM throughout history - 10/1/2005 12:36:59 AM

NakedOnMyChain

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quote:

Original: Faramir

No doubt BDSM has been around for all of history, but the Crusades and the Spanish Inquisition have no more to do with BDSM than the Korean War and Great Proletarian Culture Revolution do.

Alright, I might be able to grant you the Crusades. The bondage and sadistic element wasn't as involved as it was in the Inquisition. You'd have to study hard to see it. And just to let you know, the Inquisition involved more than just the Spanish Inquisition. That was merely the best known part of it, yet it barely scratches the surface. However, the Inquisition involved more BDSM themes than I could go into here, even without the worries of thread hijacking. Take for example the cruel and bizarre torture methods used, the need for the Inqusitors (all male) to strip and sexually experiment with their female (usually) victims, the use of bondage in many scenarios of interrogation when it wasn't necessary in the slightest. For many Inquisitors the Inquisition itself was just a convenient means to make a quick buck while reveling in the pain and bondage of others. It wasn't pretty and it certainly wasn't consensual. Somewhere in the range of 100,000 innocents were lost to the Inquisition... many raped, sexually experimented on, and brutally tortured for the pleasure of the Inquistors, and as an attempt to forcefully eradicate my religion. I could sit here and back up my claims for hours, but I'll leave it at what I've already said.

< Message edited by NakedOnMyChain -- 10/1/2005 12:37:46 AM >

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RE: BDsM throughout history - 10/1/2005 1:08:36 AM

frenchpet

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NakedOnMyChain
... many raped, sexually experimented on, and brutally tortured for the pleasure of the Inquistors, and as an attempt to forcefully eradicate my religion.

Just your religion ? You're a muslim jewish protestant ?

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RE: BDsM throughout history - 10/1/2005 3:19:20 AM

target

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I keep going back to the adage that "there's nothing new under the sun".
There might not be a paper trail but I would think m's existed in caves. And throughout history I would think the practices without the terminology existed for the lucky few that could find suitable partners without the tools we have today to communicate.

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RE: BDsM throughout history - 10/1/2005 8:38:50 AM

thetammyjo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ElektraUkM

Yes and no. Graduated in 1998 and was lecturing till a couple of years ago when personal 'stuff' took over my life. I may go 'back' to lecturing at some point, but at the moment I am working on not doing that. Academia doesn't suit me. Current project is a contribution to a book on the Sophists. I must admit it was great to see another Ancient Historian on the boards

~ Elektra

Well, hey, if you ever want to talk "scholarly stuff" send me a line.

I focus on gender, popular culture and slavery in the ancient world. My dissertation is on the changes in Amazon legends in the Greek world. Originally I thought the changes were a product of the general culture but I've found it is more a matter of individual writers which raises interesting questions that is likely making everyone else roll their eyes....

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And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

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RE: BDsM throughout history - 10/1/2005 5:26:38 PM

Lordandmaster

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But people didn't think of themselves in those days in the same way that we think of ourselves. It's not just a matter of terminology ("semantics," as people like to say derisively on here); it has to do with indentity. People may have thought of themselves as dominant personalities, born leaders, Heaven-ordained rulers, and so on, but no one before the nineteenth century (at the earliest) could possibly have imagined himself or herself as a BDSM lifestyler.

There is a lot you can read about the history of sexuality that will deal with this issue. It's intimately related to the question of whether there were homosexuals before modern psychiatry. The source that everyone will point to is Michel Foucault's History of Sexuality, but that might not be the best place to start, because it's controversial and I believe he's a lousy writer (though a brilliant thinker). If you don't mind a difficult book, try Stepchildren of Nature, by Harry Oosterhuis. It's quite sophisticated, and very sensitively written.

quote:

ORIGINAL: target

I keep going back to the adage that "there's nothing new under the sun".
There might not be a paper trail but I would think m's existed in caves. And throughout history I would think the practices without the terminology existed for the lucky few that could find suitable partners without the tools we have today to communicate.

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Post #: 74