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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/29/2005 6:31:08 PM   
sanita


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir

I was specifically thinking of "The Pearl" when I wrote that - I can't remember a single story that had M/s motifs. As I mentioned, the stories there are very much about power - D/s and SM galore - but I don't think any of the stories had M/s motifs - but maybe I have forgotten. Can you think of a particular story in the Pearl that was specifically M/s in its motifs?


Good point. *s* i was not reading it correctly. i mis-inserted my own idea it as meaning any S&M or BDSM motifs.

There was slavery, and women bought and sold in the story "La Rose d'Amore" where the gentleman travels all over collecting women for his harem. He does kidnap some of them, and then seduce them. There is not a stated "Master-slave" relationship that i can remember, but he did buy female slaves, and with not too much resistance. i don't recall any of the women ever being told they were free to leave. it was a theme, that once he seduced them, they didn't want to. Without the flat-out statement of their titles, does that count for M/s?

Other than that, it was the estate owners that were called "Master," and they did play with slaves or servants. But that is not the same.

Anyway, good point.


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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/30/2005 1:57:08 AM   
ElektraUkM


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Promising to 'obey' at the altar, I would have thought, could be seen as an act of consensual obedience?

But I wanted to raise the subject of the Ancient Greek practice of pederasty, which I personally would consider as a kind of power exchange comparable at least in some ways to modern D/s relationships.

~ Elektra

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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/30/2005 2:13:36 AM   
frenchpet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ElektraUkM
But I wanted to raise the subject of the Ancient Greek practice of pederasty, which I personally would consider as a kind of power exchange comparable at least in some ways to modern D/s relationships.

Someone had to :).
Someone knows what kind of lube they used in Greece ? Grease ?
I should mention that hundreds, or more probably thousands of objects have been found with pictures of homosexual couples on Roman and Greek archeological sites. They don't usually show them in museums because those objects are not... relevant, so they just keep them in the basements. That's what I read in a book... that's not on amazon.

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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/30/2005 2:23:09 AM   
ElektraUkM


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quote:

ORIGINAL: frenchpet

had to :).
Someone knows what kind of lube they used in Greece ? Grease ?


lol... presumably olive oil..?

Hmm... I seem to recall reading somewhere that it was 'between the thighs' rather than anal per se. But perhaps that was a euphemism..??

~ Elektra

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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/30/2005 4:21:13 AM   
JohnWarren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ElektraUkM
But I wanted to raise the subject of the Ancient Greek practice of pederasty, which I personally would consider as a kind of power exchange comparable at least in some ways to modern D/s relationships.

~ Elektra


Unless I'm missing something, pederasty was basically a sexual relationship. I don't recall any power exchange unless one feels that the difference in ages makes a power differential inherent. In current terms, that would mean a May December marriage was BDSM.

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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/30/2005 4:23:44 AM   
JohnWarren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ElektraUkM


quote:

ORIGINAL: frenchpet

had to :).
Someone knows what kind of lube they used in Greece ? Grease ?


lol... presumably olive oil..?

Hmm... I seem to recall reading somewhere that it was 'between the thighs' rather than anal per se. But perhaps that was a euphemism..??

~ Elektra



A friend of mine forgot to take off his chicken suit and sit on it while riding a slick over hostiles. He insisted that the resultant wound was in his "upper leg" but got the nickname "leadbut" anyway.


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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/30/2005 5:22:50 AM   
Rover


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Like so many things, it would depend upon the motivation of those involved in the relationship. Some younger folks might find that they naturally submit to a considerably older partner, just as some older folks may find that they naturally feel Dominant to a considerably younger partner.

On the other hand, it may simply be a matter of attraction (physical or mental) in which both partners prefer a sizeable age difference for reasons that do not include a power exchange.

It's impossible to determine the motivation of those partners (and thus impossible to determine whether a power exchange exists or does not) simply by noting the single characteristic of age. Just as it is impossible to determine what a flogging (or insert the activity of your choice) "is" (consensual play, punishment, literal abuse, etc) without knowing their motivation as well.

Oft times we insert our own personal preferences and prejudices (we all have them) to fill in the blanks when we don't have a sufficient amount of information (whether by observation or declaration) to discerne that motivation.

John aka "Captain Obvious"

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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/30/2005 5:30:30 AM   
frenchpet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ElektraUkM
Hmm... I seem to recall reading somewhere that it was 'between the thighs' rather than anal per se. But perhaps that was a euphemism..??

~ Elektra


I'm sure it's the usual euphemism. Maybe "between the thighs" is not an usual euphemism in english, but it is at least in french, and I'm sure it was in latin. And that's not new news. The confusion between the real meaning of this expression and the literary meaning was used to trick the king (Mark ?) in Tristan et Iseult (the old myth that was written down in the 12th century, and adapted into opera by Wagner) : Isolde said under oath that the only man she ever had between her thighs was the beggar that just helped her cross the river (who of course was Tristan under disguise).

And btw, the relation between the teenager and his master was also an intellectual relation (teacher / pupil).

< Message edited by frenchpet -- 9/30/2005 5:35:19 AM >

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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/30/2005 7:24:57 AM   
thetammyjo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ElektraUkM

Promising to 'obey' at the altar, I would have thought, could be seen as an act of consensual obedience?

But I wanted to raise the subject of the Ancient Greek practice of pederasty, which I personally would consider as a kind of power exchange comparable at least in some ways to modern D/s relationships.

~ Elektra


First, I personally do not consider "vows" that a culture or religion says one person should say but the other not to be "consensual" -- I also think that such "vows" are said without thinking and they are rarely lived up to. For example, when my mother was married to my father, she took the "obey" vow to him, in 1947 the idea of something else was quite radical but she certainly never, ever obeyed my father.

The Greek practice of pederasty? Well, there is no Greek practice.

Different poleis (city-states is the easiest translation) had different laws and customs regarding what we would call pederasty. These rules and laws changed over time.

In Classical Athens the relationship worked a bit like a business coupling between business families in the 1950s -- one father would have over a friend to introduce to his son. The adult men then work out an agreement -- sons consent might be nice but frankly not important.

The focus was on learning and making connections, sex could be part of that but in reality there were serious and quite limitations placed on the type of sex and the types of interactions allowed. A boy/young man who received certain types of gifts and engaged in certain types of sexual activity (anal sex, oral sex) risked his citizenship status. Fathers ideally would be very careful about who they allowed to spend time with their sons if for no other reason that their goal was to promote their own families and that meant maintaining citizenship status.

One should be very careful when looking at visuals as well -- here I'm confining my comments to Classical Athens since most evidence is from here and then. Since citizenship was very tied to their public behavior and private life, I am certain that images we see are more of male prostitutes than free males (just as the female images we see are female prostitutes). The vast majority of prostitutes would have been slaves, especially lower class slaves who would have little to offer a client other than their body and a wide range of sexual acts that no citizen could safely do. Fantasy elements could provide another venue to express interest, gods may get away with so much more than mere mortals after all.

Anyway I don't wish to bore anyone further.

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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/30/2005 7:28:00 AM   
night101owl


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ElektraUkM
But I wanted to raise the subject of the Ancient Greek practice of pederasty, which I personally would consider as a kind of power exchange comparable at least in some ways to modern D/s relationships.


And who would you consider dominant in that situation? Most of the descriptions suggest that the common interaction would involve the older man flirting, offering gifts, admiring the beauty of the teenager, while the teen would be expected to act friendly but sexually indifferent (and would be teased if he flirted too much), to strut about and show off his body while pretending to not be noticing the attention, until he finally would be coaxed into a private setting with the older man, where he would be fucked, and the older man might take on a mentor relationship with him, but I don't see a whole lot of power exchange. If the teenager acted too eager to be fucked, he'd be subject to social ridicule, and the older man would be expected to continue to offer gifts and advice, until the teen "aged out" of the relationship.

Edited to add-- I get this dynamic mostly from Aristophanes, but also a bit from Plato. There are accounts of this sort of conduct being considered absolutely inappropriate, but the people who were publicly targeted also had powerful political enemies. My impression, from the primary sources available on it, was not that pederasty was absolutely accepted, nor that it was always prosecuted. There's a difference between the "party line" morality (what people claimed was right) and the actual customs of what people did. The low-brow jokes in comedies often allude to what people actually do.



< Message edited by night101owl -- 9/30/2005 7:35:51 AM >

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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/30/2005 7:42:17 AM   
frenchpet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

One should be very careful when looking at visuals as well -- here I'm confining my comments to Classical Athens since most evidence is from here and then. Since citizenship was very tied to their public behavior and private life, I am certain that images we see are more of male prostitutes than free males (just as the female images we see are female prostitutes). The vast majority of prostitutes would have been slaves, especially lower class slaves who would have little to offer a client other than their body and a wide range of sexual acts that no citizen could safely do. Fantasy elements could provide another venue to express interest, gods may get away with so much more than mere mortals after all.

Anyway I don't wish to bore anyone further.

You're not boring !!! I want to know !
But who were the johns ? citizens ? Slaves ? or foreigners ?
Plato's banquet (among others books) openly mentions pederasty among philosophers. Maybe their misbehaviours were tolerated by the City ?

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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/30/2005 7:58:23 AM   
JohnWarren


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo
Anyway I don't wish to bore anyone further.


Wench! We'll tell you when you are boring us.

[self-face-slap] John, you ARE spending too much time around these Goreans.

Seriously, TammyJo, I, at least, am fascinated by your history posts and I think a lot of people will agree.

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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/30/2005 8:35:56 AM   
Faramir


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ElektraUkM

But I wanted to raise the subject of the Ancient Greek practice of pederasty, which I personally would consider as a kind of power exchange comparable at least in some ways to modern D/s relationships.

~ Elektra


I don't think there was an Ancient Greek practice of paiderastia - I don't think that Attic or Doric 'Ellas had an institutiona of boy-love. I believe this idea to be a Victorian construct of John Addington Symmonds in his privately published Problem in Greek Ethics, written as a justification for his own sexuality. A scrupulous reading of his citations in context show not an institutionalization of paiderastia, but rather exactly what we have today: some people were and are gay. Symmonds confuses agape and "Achillean love" for a eros, or at least a proto, hidden form of man to man eros. Symmonds diengenously pulls out random, passing citations of a given gay couple, or a given non-sexual friendship and passes them off as an institutionalization of paiderastia.

Symmonds later work is magnificent I think - A Problem in Modern Ethics is a compelling articualtion of the right of individuals to choose to live in accord with their own hearts without fear of criminalization. I love this passage:

quote:

Considering the present state of the law in most countries to be inequitable toward a respectable minority of citizens, Ulrichs proposes that Urnings should be placed upon the same footing as other men. That is to say, sexual relations between males and males should not be treated as criminal, unless they be attended with violence (as in the case of rape), or be carried on in such a way as to offend the public sense of decency (in places of general resort or on the open street), or thirdly be entertained between an adult and a boy under age (the protected age to be decided as in the case of girls). What he demands is that when an adult male, freely and of his own consent, complies with the proposals of an adult person of his own sex, and their intercourse takes place with due regard for public decency, neither party shall be liable to prosecution and punishment at law.


That was a man ahead of his time.

Alas, he sinned greatly in Greek Ethics, distorting and twisting history to suit his own desire to justify himself to himself.

Ancient Attic and Doric humans were pretty much exactly like Modern English or American humans - a minority of them have always been gay, and the only thing that changes is the level of civil rights accorded to them by the polity.

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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/30/2005 8:46:25 AM   
Faramir


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Yes it is Mark in Tristan, but that's not really a euphimism. A euphimism is meant to impart knowledge delicately - this is a "trick" motif in a romance meant to obscure knowledge.

I love that "beggar/lover" motif btw. It migrates to Lancelot during the Vulgate Cycle when Tristan is folded into the Arthurian story, and even crosses to Iceland. The same motif shows up in Grettir's Saga (my personal favorite).

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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/30/2005 8:49:05 AM   
Faramir


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quote:

ORIGINAL: sanita


There was slavery, and women bought and sold in the story "La Rose d'Amore" where the gentleman travels all over collecting women for his harem. He does kidnap some of them, and then seduce them. There is not a stated "Master-slave" relationship that i can remember, but he did buy female slaves, and with not too much resistance. i don't recall any of the women ever being told they were free to leave. it was a theme, that once he seduced them, they didn't want to. Without the flat-out statement of their titles, does that count for M/s?

Other than that, it was the estate owners that were called "Master," and they did play with slaves or servants. But that is not the same.

Anyway, good point. [/font] [/color]


Well, that sounds like proto-variants of M/s themes - it may about there that M/s as we see it starts to take shape in western erotica.

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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/30/2005 9:46:35 AM   
WickedKev


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I stand corrected.


This sounds like the invention of somebody desperately trying to make sense of a traditional phrase—what linguists call folk etymology. And it’s quite certainly untrue. But there’s a lot more to it than just fevered imagination.
The expression rule of thumb has been recorded since 1692 and probably wasn’t new then. It meant then what it means now—some method or procedure that comes from practice or experience, without any formal basis. Some have tried to link it with brewing; in the days before thermometers, brewers were said to have gauged the temperature of the fermenting liquor with the thumb (just as mothers for generations have tested the temperature of the baby’s bath water with their elbows). This seems unlikely, as the thumb is not that sensitive and the range of temperatures for fermentation between too cool and too warm is quite small.
It is much more likely that it comes from the ancient use of bits of the body to make measurements. There were once many of these: the unit of the foot comes from pacing out dimensions; the distance from the tip of the nose to the outstretched fingers is about one yard; horse heights are still measured in hands (the width of the palm and closed thumb, now fixed at four inches); and so on. There was an old tailors’ axiom that “twice around the thumb is once around the wrist”, which turns up in Gulliver’s Travels. It’s most likely that the saying comes from the length of the first joint of the thumb, which is about an inch (I remember once seeing a carpenter actually make a rough measurement this way). So the phrase rule of thumb uses the word rule in the sense of ruler, not regulation, and directly refers to this method of measurement.
So where does beating your wife come in? Sharon Fenick wrote an article about its origins in the newsgroup alt.folklore.urban in 1996. She found that for more than two centuries there have been references in legal works to the idea that a man may legally beat his wife, provided that he used a stick no thicker than his thumb; but the references were always to what some people believed, not to established legal principle. The British common law had long held that it was legal for a man to chastise his wife in moderation, as one might a servant or child, but Sir William Blackstone wrote in his Commentaries on the Laws of England in 1765 that this principle was by then in decline. So far as I can discover nothing was ever laid down about how such discipline should be applied.
Ms Fenick traced the idea back to a pronouncement that was supposed to have been made in 1782 by a British judge, Sir Francis Buller; this led to a fiercely satirical cartoon by James Gillray that was published on 27 November that year, in which Buller was caricatured as Judge Thumb. (Buller was a brilliant lawyer, the youngest man ever to be appointed a judge in Britain, at 32, but he was widely considered hasty and prejudiced in his opinions.)
It might be that he never made the statement that rendered him so notorious. Edward Foss, in his Biographical Dictionary of the Judges of England of 1864 says that to Buller “is attributed the obnoxious and ungentlemanly dictum that a husband may beat his wife, so that the stick with which he administers the castigation is not thicker than his thumb”, but says he can’t find any evidence Buller said it. But the Dictionary of National Biography and other standard works say firmly he did, as did contemporary biographies.
However, it was only in 1976, so far as I can discover, that the traditional phrase rule of thumb became directly associated with this spurious legal maxim, through a bit of wordplay in a report that was misunderstood by readers.
It is extraordinary that we can so accurately pinpoint the moment at which this folk belief came into being. And how astonishing, too, that it should have survived more than two centuries to become part of the folklore of modern times.

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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/30/2005 10:05:21 AM   
WickedKev


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quote:

Actually, just a note, not meant to sound rude, but Cicero was dead before the imperial system was established, Marcus Antonius had him "blacklisted".

Most of the general histories of Rome don't spend much time on sexual acts, attitudes or even slavery frankly -- not considered "polite" or "general" history. More specialized studies do look at these things but I stick by my earlier statement, without mutual consent it isn't BDSM.



Your'e right, Cicero was blacklisted and was dead before the imperial system (I'm sick and that is my excuse for the error and I'm sticking to it). And I agree mutual consent is what BDSM is all about, what I was argueing is that we have taken a lot from times when it wasn't consenting ie. terms slaves, Master etc. Equipment such as dungeons, the rack, stocks etc. That is to say BDSM's origins did not evolve from history because we don't like what was happening is only fooling ouselves.

Now I am going back to my sick bed.


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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/30/2005 10:16:10 AM   
KatyLied


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WickedKev - sorry to hear you are sick....try some hot peppers!

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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/30/2005 10:28:26 AM   
frenchpet


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Faramir


I don't think there was an Ancient Greek practice of paiderastia - I don't think that Attic or Doric 'Ellas had an institutiona of boy-love.


At least one of "Socrate's dialogues" mention the young age of the bottoms. I have studied only 2 of them (banquet and Menon), and in one of them someone is laughed at because his lover already has beard... or something like that, which implied that the normal relationship was between an adult and a beardless. I think it's the banquet. If I remember well, Menon is laughed at because he comes from a region where they only know about horse breeding (implying they were stupid).

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RE: BDsM throughout history - 9/30/2005 10:34:49 AM   
thetammyjo


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quote:

ORIGINAL: frenchpet

quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

One should be very careful when looking at visuals as well -- here I'm confining my comments to Classical Athens since most evidence is from here and then. Since citizenship was very tied to their public behavior and private life, I am certain that images we see are more of male prostitutes than free males (just as the female images we see are female prostitutes). The vast majority of prostitutes would have been slaves, especially lower class slaves who would have little to offer a client other than their body and a wide range of sexual acts that no citizen could safely do. Fantasy elements could provide another venue to express interest, gods may get away with so much more than mere mortals after all.

Anyway I don't wish to bore anyone further.

You're not boring !!! I want to know !
But who were the johns ? citizens ? Slaves ? or foreigners ?
Plato's banquet (among others books) openly mentions pederasty among philosophers. Maybe their misbehaviours were tolerated by the City ?


If you look at the male-male couples in said piece, note that they are all adults and that the couples there are not citizens. Classical Athens didn't give a darn about what non-citizens did unless it involved a citizen. Notice that Socrates (Plato's ideal here) resists the advances of Cleisthenes (whom in his youth had been called the most beautiful boy in Athens) -- by period of this work, Cleisthenes has proven himself a traitor to Athens and I think his position in this work is used to showed how much better Socrates is.

As for prostitutes, well, there were state owned brothels where a man could buy services for a few hours pay. This seems to have been institutionalized as a way to fulfill the needs of all the important members of the radical democracy (adult, male citizens). Higher class prostitutes are a matter of money, citizens and non-citizens can have that. Unlike in Rome, it does not appear that Greek slaves owned other slaves or used such services.

Again this is all Classical Athens. Sparta was quite different and didn't practice pederasty at all. There male-male relationships were between age peer, probably because of the militaristic nature of the culture where boys were removed from their home at age six and placed in age-peer groups to learn to fight and defend the Spartan way of life. What their thoughts and motivations and types of sex they had is unclear because Spartan men were poorly educated in terms of reading and writing; they were very focused on military matters.



_____________________________

Love, Peace, Hugs, Kisses, Whips & Chains,

TammyJo

Check out my website at http://www.thetammyjo.com Or www.tammyjoeckhart.com

And my LJ where I post fiction in progress if you "friend" me at http://thetammyjo.livejournal.com/

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