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RE: Iraq - 3/22/2008 3:07:36 PM   
Smith117


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I hate all wars, but what's happening in Iraq is particularly senseless. (They still haven't found those pesky weapons of mass destruction  .)



Selective memory much? In his last interview Saddam said he WANTED everyone to think he had those and that he ENJOYED knowing that we thought he had them. This invasion was therefore directly his fault, simply another in a long list of reasons why he needed NOT to be in power there.

(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Iraq - 3/22/2008 3:09:22 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline 		Rattle someone else's cage - the post you quoted is stale now  .

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(in reply to Smith117)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Iraq - 3/22/2008 3:11:57 PM   
Smith117


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Speaking of soldiers:

a) They've made a choice.
b) They're undertaking the government's killing orders.

My question: how can you thank them for this?


Spoken like someone who's never served anyone but himself. Good job.

I find it hilarious that you lump those two statements together. The soldiers make a choice to SERVE. What comes after that is outside of their choice. You don't pick and choose what orders you follow. Funny how everyone loved our soldiers in the 1940's...but .....oh right....we were saving YOUR ASSES back then, weren't we?

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Iraq - 3/22/2008 3:16:02 PM   
Smith117


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

He most certainly does; he chooses to volunteer.

He's a bully; he knows he's going to be armed to the teeth against an inferior foe.

Nil respect, here.


Sounds as though you don't know your own country's history. As someone from a country who tried oppressing nearly everyone they possibly could before America sent you packing....you sure talk a lot like the UK's shit doesn't stink.

Funny.....I seem to recall something about glass houses and throwing stones.

Shall we list the people England has oppressed? Scotland, Ireland....oh hell just look here...I can't paste them all...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_the_United_Kingdom

For someone bashing on America and its policies as often as you do, I'd wonder if you've ever looked back at your own country.

< Message edited by Smith117 -- 3/22/2008 3:21:46 PM >

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Iraq - 3/22/2008 3:29:13 PM   
bipolarber


Posts: 2792
Joined: 9/25/2004
Status: offline 		Smith,

Yeah kinda makes you wonder, huh? Saddam, surrounded by enemies, propagates the lie that he has, or will have soon, nukes at his disposal. Probably to stave off attacks from those surrounding him. Unfortunately, he miscalculated, not realizing that Bush was under the thumb of the Saudis, and would invade anyway at their behest. (It gave him a good excuse.)

I'm not in any way being supportive of the bloody dictator, but after five years of standing in for him, we can at least understand some of his motivations, both for internal security and keeping the peace. Seems when you are running a country filled with violent religious fanatics, one of the responses is to become one.

(in reply to Smith117)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Iraq - 3/22/2008 3:40:44 PM   
Smith117


Posts: 1447
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber

Smith,

Yeah kinda makes you wonder, huh? Saddam, surrounded by enemies, propagates the lie that he has, or will have soon, nukes at his disposal. Probably to stave off attacks from those surrounding him. Unfortunately, he miscalculated, not realizing that Bush was under the thumb of the Saudis, and would invade anyway at their behest. (It gave him a good excuse.)

I'm not in any way being supportive of the bloody dictator, but after five years of standing in for him, we can at least understand some of his motivations, both for internal security and keeping the peace. Seems when you are running a country filled with violent religious fanatics, one of the responses is to become one.


Yep. I've said since I heard that this whole war was his fault. Bush even said "Let the inspectors do their job or you'll face the consequences." Then he said "Leave the country immediately or we'll make you." He chose to stay.

If you let the world (who agrees you should not have nukes or chem weapons) think you do indeed have those weapons, and then you refuse to give them up or prove you don't.....despte the threat of invasion.....that, to me is like asking in writing to be invaded.

(in reply to bipolarber)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Iraq - 3/22/2008 4:02:30 PM   
NorthernGent


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Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith117

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Speaking of soldiers:

a) They've made a choice.
b) They're undertaking the government's killing orders.

My question: how can you thank them for this?


Spoken like someone who's never served anyone but himself. Good job.

I find it hilarious that you lump those two statements together. The soldiers make a choice to SERVE. What comes after that is outside of their choice. You don't pick and choose what orders you follow. Funny how everyone loved our soldiers in the 1940's...but .....oh right....we were saving YOUR ASSES back then, weren't we?



You make a choice; you accept responsibility for the consequences of your choice. Plain and simple.

You're right on one count, though: I much prefer to organise my life around people serving me.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Smith117)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Iraq - 3/22/2008 4:15:05 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith117

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

He most certainly does; he chooses to volunteer.

He's a bully; he knows he's going to be armed to the teeth against an inferior foe.

Nil respect, here.


Sounds as though you don't know your own country's history. As someone from a country who tried oppressing nearly everyone they possibly could before America sent you packing....you sure talk a lot like the UK's shit doesn't stink.

Funny.....I seem to recall something about glass houses and throwing stones.

Shall we list the people England has oppressed? Scotland, Ireland....oh hell just look here...I can't paste them all...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_history_of_the_United_Kingdom

For someone bashing on America and its policies as often as you do, I'd wonder if you've ever looked back at your own country.


I can assure you that I haven't oppressed anyone. I'm bordering on pacifist, and believe that there is a heavy burden of proof to be satisfied prior to engaging in organised violence of any description.

I'll take responsibility for my actions but not the actions of the British government, whom I tend to disagree with on matters of foreign policy.

Your mistake here is to assume I have a mind similar to yours, i.e. one that is remotely interested in your misplaced patriotism.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Smith117)
Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Iraq - 3/22/2008 4:20:24 PM   
christine1


Posts: 6155
Joined: 12/15/2007
From: i'm headed to HIM...
Status: offline 		to no one in particular.....i have a few family members who have served and they can't comment on the WMD's.  and to those who think American Soldiers are bullies, fuck you.  the choice to serve is just that, it is pride in country and the choice to serve that or not, it isnt' a decision to be a bully around the world...get real.

< Message edited by christine1 -- 3/22/2008 4:22:26 PM >

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(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Iraq - 3/22/2008 4:22:10 PM   
Smith117


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

You make a choice; you accept responsibility for the consequences of your choice. Plain and simple.

You're right on one count, though: I much prefer to organise my life around people serving me.


Wrong again.

You can make an informed choice to serve under a president you agree with and support, and then 4 years later he's out, some idiot is in and you don't have the luxury of just 'quitting.'



(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Iraq - 3/22/2008 4:34:15 PM   
NorthernGent


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Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith117

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

You make a choice; you accept responsibility for the consequences of your choice. Plain and simple.

You're right on one count, though: I much prefer to organise my life around people serving me.


Wrong again.

You can make an informed choice to serve under a president you agree with and support, and then 4 years later he's out, some idiot is in and you don't have the luxury of just 'quitting.'



I've no idea what you're talking about.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Smith117)
Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Iraq - 3/22/2008 4:35:26 PM   
Smith117


Posts: 1447
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

I can assure you that I haven't oppressed anyone. I'm bordering on pacifist, and believe that there is a heavy burden of proof to be satisfied prior to engaging in organised violence of any description.



No, you may not have personally oppressed anyone, but your people have. My comment to that is just like your broad comment about American soldiers. Considering that much of what we done in a combat zone isn't combat at all, but rather humanitarian efforts - building schools, bringing medical care to those who wouldn't have it otherwise (such as saving the life of an afghani boy who found a 30-year-old Russian landmine and thought it was a toy), you can't say we're "big bad men" oppressing people, especially not the individual solier.

Are you aware that combat jobs make up the smallest part of the military? Each branch has MANY support jobs ie paper pushers, medics, drivers, mechanics, general's aides. Who are *they* oppressing? They're in the same combat zone as everyone else and often times they don't even carry their weapon on a daily basis. Kind of hard to hold a gun when you have your hands in another soldier's chest cavity pinching an artery. Those who do those jobs don't do them "only" for American soldiers, either. Refer back to my comment about the docs caring for a boy for found the old landmine. "We" didn't put that mine there, someone else did. But "we" are cleaning up the mess of civilian casualties that it caused decades later.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

Your mistake here is to assume I have a mind similar to yours, i.e. one that is remotely interested in your misplaced patriotism.


Actually I haven't made that mistake at all. You have. I could care less what you care about. You've already showcased your lack of intelligence and your holier-than-thou stance on pretty much everything. And you do all of this without even a hint of perspective about that of which you speak.

My comment was simply that it's easy for you to point out what you call bullying when you have no knowledge of the centuries of bullying by your "own people."

And don't even get me started on the whole 'pacifism' angle. Pacifism is waste. It's a waste because it's redundant. EVERYONE would rather have peace. That's a simple no-brainer. We are not, as a people, a lover of all things WAAAAAAAR oriented. We don't, as a people, seek to conquer the world or eradicate anyone else.

We *DO* seek to be safe. We *DO* seek the world to be safe. And there *are* those who believe that anyone unlike them should be wiped out. Those people will forever make the world *un*safe while we continue to try and make it safe.

Tell me, Mr Pacifist, how do you make peace when an entire people want to eradicate others who believe differently than they do? How do you peacefully reason with a group like that? Do you simply lay down your weapon and let them kill you so that they have what they seek? Because words of peace will not deflect the bullets of hate. Of that you can be sure.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Iraq - 3/22/2008 4:37:50 PM   
Smith117


Posts: 1447
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith117

Wrong again.

You can make an informed choice to serve under a president you agree with and support, and then 4 years later he's out, some idiot is in and you don't have the luxury of just 'quitting.'



I've no idea what you're talking about.


Then re-read it, because it couldn't be simpler. When you enlist (as it's clear you never have) you enlist for a set number of years. If the president you agree with leaves office and one with whom you do not agree is elected in his place, you can't just raise your hand and say you quit. You're in for the length of service you signed up for, no matter what. And you follow orders like you always have or you get to see the inside of a 6x6 jail cell.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Iraq - 3/22/2008 4:41:10 PM   
Focus50


Posts: 3962
Joined: 12/28/2004
From: Newcastle, Australia
Status: offline
quote:

Hello everyone,
i was just listening to the radio & they mentioned that today it is 5 years to the day since forces went into Iraq, i kinda just wanted to say whether you agree or disagree with this war, please take a few minutes to remember the soldiers & their families today.

thanks,

I've always reckoned the real reason George Dubya invaded Iraq was to fix his old man's half-arsed mess of a decade earlier, where the US DID have justification to overthrow Saddam but called a halt once the Iraqies were pushed back inside their own border.  One wonders where the World would be today if WWII ended once the Germans were pushed back onto home turf and Hitler left in power....
 
But all this talk of freedom; yikes...!  Fact is, it's Iraq who has foreign armies of occupation within their borders and I can understand to a certain extent when dirty tricks are utilised to battle an occupying army of superior numbers and weaponry.   Yeah, I know, it's really terrorists (often foreign nationals) within Iraq who are the enemy blah blah....
 
Saddam needed to go - agreed!  It's too late now that he needed to go a decade earlier than what transpired....  But while Americans don't seem to see themselves as an occupying army, the Arab World in general does - and it's time they left....
 
And btw, I bear NO ill will toward the individual troops!  I'm old enough to remember the great shame of Vietnam, where returning troops became the face of an unpopular war and thus the target of so-called "peace" demonstrators.
 
No matter what ultimately becomes of the Iraqi people, it's time - "Yankee (and allies) go home!"
 
Focus.

(in reply to blissy)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Iraq - 3/22/2008 4:45:15 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith117

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

I can assure you that I haven't oppressed anyone. I'm bordering on pacifist, and believe that there is a heavy burden of proof to be satisfied prior to engaging in organised violence of any description.



No, you may not have personally oppressed anyone, but your people have. My comment to that is just like your broad comment about American soldiers.



You're not getting it; you're asking me to answer for someone else's actions. 'Totally nonsensical. On the other hand, I'm linking the consequences to the actions of a soldier.

'You see? Surely? I'll take the time to spell it out for you.........I am not and never have been a member of the British Government. Clear?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith117

Tell me, Mr Pacifist, how do you make peace when an entire people want to eradicate others who believe differently than they do? How do you peacefully reason with a group like that?



This would be hilarious if the consequences weren't so depressing. Has the following passed you by: the US army is in Iraq, not the other way 'round.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Smith117)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Iraq - 3/22/2008 4:46:55 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith117

And you follow orders like you always have or you get to see the inside of a 6x6 jail cell.



A person chooses to enlist. Do you understand the concepts of choice and accountability?

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Smith117)
Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Iraq - 3/22/2008 4:49:45 PM   
Smith117


Posts: 1447
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith117

And you follow orders like you always have or you get to see the inside of a 6x6 jail cell.



A person chooses to enlist. Do you understand the concepts of choice and accountability?


A person chooses to enlist. He does NOT get to choose when to be out. Do you understand the concepts of a contract?

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Iraq - 3/22/2008 4:51:20 PM   
NorthernGent


Posts: 8730
Joined: 7/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith117

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith117

And you follow orders like you always have or you get to see the inside of a 6x6 jail cell.



A person chooses to enlist. Do you understand the concepts of choice and accountability?


A person chooses to enlist. He does NOT get to choose when to be out. Do you understand the concepts of a contract?



You choose to enter into a contract. When the contract results in killing people, accept responsibility for the consequences of your choice.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to Smith117)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Iraq - 3/22/2008 5:00:33 PM   
Smith117


Posts: 1447
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

You're not getting it; you're asking me to answer for someone else's actions. 'Totally nonsensical. On the other hand, I'm linking the consequences to the actions of a soldier.



Oh I get it just fine, I'm asking you to do that which you expect of the American soldier. The American soldier does not play politics. He doesn't decide where he goes or when or how often. So I will continue to expect you to answer for the centuries of your country's war mongering so long  as you do the same to the American soldier.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

'You see? Surely? I'll take the time to spell it out for you.........I am not and never have been a member of the British Government. Clear?


It's quite clear. What is *not* clear, to YOU is that you are doing that very thing to the American soldier. Most soldiers have never been a member of the American Government either, so they have as much do with with what orders they are given as you do with your country's history.

A soldier chooses when he enlists. He chooses who is in office at the time of his volunteering. He does *not* choose what happens to that administration, nor does he choose what happens when another president is elected. If the president with whom a soldier agrees is voted out while the soldier is still in the service, that soldier cannot simply leave the service. He has a contract to fulfill.

quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

This would be hilarious if the consequences weren't so depressing. Has the following passed you by: the US army is in Iraq, not the other way 'round.


Not at all. Has the following passed by YOU: radical islam is intent on destroying everyone different from them. They care not where you are, nor where I am. They care not your notion of peace nor mine. You and I believe differently from them, therefore to them, we must be destroyed. Talks of peace with a people like that are futile. They only understand blood and destruction. We would rather that blood and destruction be within their borders, instead of our own.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Iraq - 3/22/2008 5:01:55 PM   
Smith117


Posts: 1447
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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

You choose to enter into a contract. When the contract results in killing people, accept responsibility for the consequences of your choice.


Not everyone's contract results in killing people, oh-deaf-one. The vast majority of our military has never even fired a rifle at another human being. But you don't care about that. In your eyes, anyone in uniform is a killer. And illogical, uninformed thinking like that disgusts me, as do you.

(in reply to NorthernGent)
Profile   Post #: 60
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