RE: free woman????????????? (Full Version)

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Aswad -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/21/2008 6:46:20 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Aswad - do you think Gor is so much loved because it offers a readymade dish of set beliefs and thinking?


Hehe. Kind of like American culture? Humane Ethics? Capitalism? Christianity? Socialism? Taoism?
People are usually raised into a set of beliefs and thinking, or adopt one ready-made.
Some do that with the Gorean lifestyles, as well, but most here do not.
The bulk of those here invest a lot of time acquiring it.
Kind of like any other self-development thing.

quote:

I'm touching on something more general than just Gor, and could be talking about any book that's considered to be holding some kind of universal truth.


Since I found the same message elsewhere, the Gor books aren't a big deal to me.

quote:

Don't you think this "free women" is a bit of a plot copout for Norman?


Not at all. Are you really implying that no women are suited to being free?

For that matter, bear in mind that they provide the only vehicle for the main theme: satirizing radical feminism. With women claiming that sex could only exist in slavery, and that orgasms could enslave you, and things like that, it seems slightly amusing to depict a parody of that in a sci-fi book by having the character encounter lots of women that are deathly afraid of their own sexuality until freed from this fear through the process of slavery, which takes away the feeling of responsibility (cf. "forced" bi-male cocksuckers, here on CM at 9 o'clock).

Which is stuff which obviously doesn't belong in the lifestyle itself, just like the big bugs don't. [:D]

quote:

His fantasy world couldn't have existed with just slaves, so he had to make some kind of provision for breeders?


I'm fuzzy on the details, but slaves can breed, as such... they just don't make good role models for free UMs.

Health,
al-Aswad.




Aswad -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/21/2008 6:50:21 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I'm not sure what he said or didn't say, colouredin, but I do know this: people talk about events on Gor as if they had really occurred.


Few Christians take the Bible as literal truth, but they still talk about walking on water.
It is a parable, and humans are able to deal with those- have been for a long time.
And some of it is just in-joking, etc., like borrowing football terminology.
Sadly, you will see some who seem to be quite lost in the fantasy.
Those do not appear to come here to CollarMe, though.

Health,
al-Aswad.




ModeratorEleven -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/21/2008 6:51:51 PM)

For those people who didn't take my original post in this thread to heart, I'm going to try again and simplify things.  For those of you who think this is your opportunity to take a free swing at Gor or those who call themselves Gorean and take that swing, you'll not be around long enough to see your post get deleted.  Move along if you can't participate without swinging.

XI





sabirah -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/21/2008 6:54:45 PM)

greetings IronBear,

I appreciated your post, a truly interesting and insightful read,
Thank you very much.





Aswad -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/21/2008 7:01:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: bipolarber

I can't agree with that more, IB! Think you can talk to the Gor folk about not attacking me, based on the fact that I'm a male sub? Or pissing on my Domme because she IS a Domme?


That is not what got you slapped around, bipolarbear.

And anyone wondering about that can just go back and read it for themselves.

Health,
al-Aswad.




Aswad -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/21/2008 7:07:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

The general ideas I live by are mostly ones I have formed through my experiance.


That's true of most Goreans, to a varying degree.

quote:

And protocol, well since my posting on the gorean board I have had about 10 messages from Goreans telling me about how I should have posted the message, what I should have said and some have told me I shouldnt have posted at all. I think thats What I meant by protocol.


There aren't a full dozen Goreans actually posting there regularly.

Take the advice you got with a pinch of salt.

Health,
al-Aswad.




Kirata -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/21/2008 7:37:47 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

I am just saying you seem to be judging based on little to no information.

Tal Aswad,
 
I am sure many here have had to deal first hand with the ugliness of people who are capable of entertaining all manner of strong negative feelings toward something without really knowing much of anything the fuck about it.
 
They are satisified that they know enough, and that's good enough for them. Besides, some of them met a few of you once and confirmed that you're sicko assholes.
 
But the interesting thing is, all of us routinely make judgments and experience strong feelings about things on the basis of scanty information. And we have to accept it. It is how we evolved in order to survive. It's only ugly when you're on the receiving end of it.
 
That too, however, is something we have to accept. It falls under the category of acting responsibily by evaluating the potential consequences of our actions. Children are poor at this. Civil discourse is an indication that you are talking to an adult.
 
IWYW,
 
Kirata
 

Edited to add:
Do they have any beer over on this side? 
 




Aswad -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/21/2008 10:07:54 PM)

Tal K,

Well said, good point, and I do accept it.

That does not prevent me from pointing out that a given conclusion seems premature to me, or hoping that others will point out when they think mine are premature or incorrect (you are pretty helpful in that regard, yanno). How else would I know that there may be errors to correct, if they are not pointed out to me? If I already know I've made one, then I'm working on fixing it, not hanging around waiting for someone to notice. Perhaps arrogant, but I'm inclined to think others have the same limitation in that regard.

As for the beer, I'm sure there's some to be found. I have a vague recollection of a beer-raising smiley. [:D]

Health,
al-Aswad.




lovewithoutfear -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/21/2008 11:00:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

But about the books...the Gorean ones. Even though females are treated..perhaps..harsh...there is to me..always a love story involved.
The MAster ignoring the girl..telling her she is useless..the female rejecting slavery...but in the end.....they live happily together..both in their role as Ms.
It is hard to read..but.....perhaps if you have time on your hands read one (kajira of Gor /slavegirl of Gor are not so bad).





Gah, that was the one I found the hardest to stomach -- this male fantasy writer trying to use a woman's voice (much of it is written in the first person from the girl's POV).  It read to me as **very** heavy on the "all women are really slaves at heart even if they don't admit it" notion.  That crock of the master abandoning the slave and it just making her long for him more is offensive to me, too.  I have yet to meet a real person who genuinely felt more like giving over and trusting someone after they'd been abandoned by them.




Justme696 -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/22/2008 2:58:03 AM)

yeah agree...i just looked it up. I have the collection...lol...it is sure not the easiest one.
I used it as example....because it is harsh..but ends  very very romantic  ;)

the "every lady is a slave in heart" is returning topic though. It is not my view...just the one presented in the books.
( i don't disliek the thought though :P )


believes..seem always end in fights........  west vs east......bdsm vs gorean....christianity vs islam.
no one understand what the other means..there for we try to kill eachother.
even though there good and bad people on both sides.

oh well what do we expect..when people beat eachother because they like an other soccer club.




Justme696 -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/22/2008 3:11:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aswad

rephrase, then: if the answer is not clear to you, then I can probably not provide one you can understand.


Incredible as it may seem, even I use colloquialisms (like "get" in the sense of "understand") at times.

Have you found my use of the term to mean that?

Aswad.



Aswad

did you call me a troll?  no..just kidding...although I wouldn't mind a roll in a movie.
thank you for claryfying your post.
I read it differently at first....  that is the problems with typed posts.... reading it..and seeing the true meaning behind it..is hard by times.

Damian

ps:
quote:

  How else would I know that there may be errors to correct, if they are not pointed out to me?


that I find very respectfull, I want to know it also..always..
to learn and the improve




littlebitxxx -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/22/2008 8:08:22 AM)

I am a Gorean Free Woman but please note that my answer is from my perspective only.  Gor, like bdsm, like the bible, like Plato, like anything is all open to interpretation and the "living Goreans" live it in the manner they've interpreted it.

To explain my life easier, I'll put it in more vanilla terms.  I am a single woman, I have a job, a car, responsibilities and obligations.  I was married, raised children, then separated.  I go out with friends, shop, go dancing, do all the 'normal' stuff that 'normal' women do.  I met a single man and entered a relationship based on mutual respect, love, and admiration.  We moved in together to share our home and lives (along with a whole bunch of kink ;)  We are not married, we have SM playtime outside with others, we see our friends together and individually, but we come home to each other.  I do the cooking usually (mostly self-preservation), we share financial obligations, we share homestyle responsibilities, I do the dishes, he vacuums.  We are what would typically be thought of as a normal living together couple doing normal everyday things.  We are, however, Gorean Free Companions.  We entered the relationship with a verbal contract good for a year and a day, much like vanilla couples that get together "to see how it goes".  I am not his submissive or slave, he is not my Dom or Master.  When we decided to "collar" each other, in vanilla terms that would mean sorta like a deeper commitment to each other. 

Gor is not just all about owning slaves.  To read the books (yes, I know they have a  horrible writing style)  there is so much more there than flying around on tarns, raiding villages, taking slaves and plundering the loot.  The books are a vehicle by which to transport deeper philosophies that Normal picked from several ancient (and not so ancient) cultures.  To live as a Gorean means, to us, that we've chosen the parts of those philosophies that fit with living an honest, upstanding kinda life.  Honour, integrity, protection of loved ones, loyalty to one's friends, honesty in personal and business lives....the traits that each of us usually try to aspire to anyway.  Just plain ol' living a "good" life.

As for the "natural order" aspect where men are thought to be naturally dominant and women naturally submissive......if you look at the world for the past 100,000 years it's been just that.  Men are physically stronger, linear in thinking, the hunter and gatherer, the protector, the one who pushes the woman behind him and shows his shield.  Women are softer, physically weaker, the nurturers, the supporters, the ones who tend the home fires and keeps the families strong within, and gives the man a safe place to come home to.  It doesn't mean women are weaker than men in all ways.  They must be strong to defend the family, make the everyday decisions, and manage the household.  Nowadays, women are also out in the world, managing, supervising, teaching, doing what used to be called a man's job...but she also maintains the home.  So feminism is actually more of a Free Woman trait than otherwise.  Men are not better, women are not better.  We are different, with different strengths and weaknesses, different abilities and capabilities and therefore different responsibilites and areas of expertise.  A Gorean Free Man recognizes that in his Companion, a Free Woman does also.  A Companionship is therefore based on mutual respect and admiration, love maybe, using each other's strengths and abilities for the best of the relationship.  Sounds actually kinda vanilla, don't it?

In bdsm terms, when you come to realize that you were a Dom or a sub or a switch or whatever, that's the way you've been anyway, the way you think, the way you want to live your life.  You want to be spanked or controlled, you want to serve or be served, etc.  Bdsm came along and allowed you to put a label on the life you want to live.  Same same with Gor.  The books came along, Gor came along and put a label and the way I had already been living my life.  It's something I can identify with, just as you identify with being a submissive.  Kinda like the whole belonging thing...I found other people that think like me so I'm not as weird as I thought....you call it bdsm, I call it Gor.

I'll put my soapbox away now and go get more caffeine.




auniquegift -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/22/2008 9:17:19 AM)

hello littlebitxxx...
thank you very much for that very well written and remarkable explanation.
this is very easy to understand and in very plain terms.
i truly appreciate this.
a unique gift




Gwynvyd -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/22/2008 10:33:45 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I actually believe all clowns have something wrong with them, for sure [:D] .


Ok.. do we have to drag that whole clown thing into every thread.. seriously creeping me out folks.. *ack*

I freaking hate clowns. *ugh*

and yes I am from Chicago... and was around when that Gacy guy did all of that creepy shit. totaly put me off clowns.. I only was leary of them before then.

*ick*

Gwyn




Gwynvyd -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/22/2008 10:54:54 AM)

Greetings littlebit,

Thank you for your post.

This I believe is what we have all been trying to get to and understand.

Now it makes total sense. ( at least to me much more sense)

Can you explain if you would be so kind...

what this whole "begging a collar" biz is when you are a free woman for those who do not know.. and also how one can fall from the status of a free woman against her will. ~ That I have been a bit shaky on.. and seen some debate on.

Again, thank you so much for your wonderful post.

Gwyn




littlebitxxx -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/22/2008 2:30:37 PM)

uniquegift and Gwyn,  Thank you for your kind words.  Sometimes the neighbourhood bully isn't such a bad guy when you find out he puts his pants on one leg at a time just like normal people.  tehe

Your questions, Gwyn, I'll try to answer clearly but they're from my own viewpoint.  A Free Woman can beg the collar of her Free Companion if she wishes.  She, in a way, abdicates from the position of female head of the house to his slave.  Personal slave, usually, and as such treated better than most, but still slave.  I'm not a slave so I can't understand the reasoning behind it, but it happens.  A Free Woman can "fall" from her position in society basically by acting so badly, a FM just collars her.  In vanilla terms, as an example, a friend of yours left her husband and totally turned turtle on you.  From jeans and boots, or nice dress to go out, she started dressing skanky to go out and flirting outrageously, picking up strangers and taking them home, etc etc.  Now YOU know that is not really her, she may be just acting out with newfound freedom.  But those guys she's flirting with don't know that...and treat her like the whore/slut/hooker/whatever she appears to be to them.  A Free Woman, is she acts like a slave (in the book it's made to look like whore/slut/whatever), any FM can strip her veils (in essence unmasking her for what she truly is) and collar her as his slave (treating her like what she appears to him).
A third way is for raiders from another village to come in to capture slaves and take FW as well.  They don't usually because of the veils worn and they don't wanna be getting the ol' "pig in the poke". 

In the book, FW and slaves are widely separated in description in order to show the difference in ways of living/behaviour etc, I think.   A slave is shown as having no inhibitions whatsoever, revelling and indeed flaunting her sexuality, and is usually judged on such.  On Gor, a slave is not enslaved so much by her mindset or being as much as physically.  They don't talk of the mental Domination, the "presence" that turns your knees to water.  Slaves are women first, then the guy fucks them, and it's soooooo good she is now his slave forever.  Hmmm, kinda wished that happened on Earth...lol.  FW are the kind of girls you would take home to meet mom.  Discreet, ladylike, respectful....  The kind that is studying in the library whilst the school *** is out behind the bleachers fucking the football team.  FW are usually made out to be frigid and a-sexual when that's not the case at all.  They are just a little more discreet about it in public, usually because of the social standing of their family, or where they work.  Doesn't mean they are frigid behind closed doors!!  They also do dress nicely, skirt and heels, friendly to other people, have fun, look sexy....just a little more upscale than the skank down the bar.  Now I am NOT saying slaves are skank!!  This is an analogy I could think of to describe the differences in quite a blatant light to make them obvious.

Now, my FC and I collared to each other.  It does mean I begged his slave collar, I am still a FW.  FC's collaring is not typical Gorean thinking, but it fits US.  We put our own interpretation on our own Companionship.

Hope that helps, sorry for the book again.




Justme696 -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/22/2008 5:19:48 PM)

that is sure a nice interpration of beeing Gorean. BUt I am sure many will think that...as soon as you were collared..you are not a free woman anymore.
Every one lives it in his/her own way. Beeing happy with it..is all that counts.




littlebitxxx -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/22/2008 8:28:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

that is sure a nice interpration of beeing Gorean. BUt I am sure many will think that...as soon as you were collared..you are not a free woman anymore.
Every one lives it in his/her own way. Beeing happy with it..is all that counts.



JustMe, you are quite correct...many WILL think that.  Who cares?   My Gor is my interpretation and the way I live it.  I'm still as Free as I ever was.  Thank you for seeing that and pointing it out.  I've always enjoyed your posts...you know stuff.




Gwynvyd -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/23/2008 12:42:43 AM)

Again, thank you so much...

If I could ask you just one last question... ( ok it may lead to more.. but one never knows.. and it is soooooooooooooooooo nice to have you here to ask these questions I have always tried to ask. So I am deeply grateful for that.)

What is your personal take on the panther girls...

Since you are in essance a FW and heck.. a Woman period... I would love to know your view on them.

Esp when it comes to thier role in the here and now in how people portray them in the Gor Community online and in RL.

Why would someone ( in your mind) chose a panther girl archtype?

And what does being a panther girl mean to you?

This confused me because if they are women who go against the society then why play it out online in the forums and cause issues and back lash ( from what I had first understood of them from some peoples explination of them and in my own readings... )

If it is the strongest of one half requiring just as strong of a mate and not settling for some who was not worthy of them.. I can get behind that... Hell I *am* behind that... and the whole "great surrender" thing I can understand. ( though I still think the concept of behind every woman is a quivvering slave at heart is a lovely concept but not the case in every instance. )

So what do you think?

Gwyn




Justme696 -> RE: free woman????????????? (3/23/2008 1:59:59 AM)

a panter girl... is not often taken seriously by peopel living the Gorean way. They are mainly part of the IRC online play.
It is hard to give them a place in reallife gorean lifestyle. In the gorean forum, some one just introduced herself as one. PErhaps that is an interesting read.

btw My girl, a sub, asked me about the Gor books last night. I tried in a few lines to describe what the ssence of them is...in my view.
THen she described "The story of O'".....often loved by females. BEsides the different setting...those books come very close to eachother.. depending how you read them.
I am very curious why one book is so cursed and the other so loved..while in the concept..they are not so differently.




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