RE: Cheney: My Hero!

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meatcleaver -> RE: Cheney: My Hero! (3/28/2008 9:21:05 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: ORIGINAL: meatcleaver Operation Barbarosa ran into the ground because Germany couldn't produce enough munitions and keep their front lines supplied. So it would appear that you are saying that the "state of the art" military strategists of Germany forgot to figure out how many bullets they would need to conquer Russia? Isn't that a lot like going to an ass kicking contest without your boots on? If I remember my history correctly they also ran out of oil for their second rate tanks. Didn't they also run out of food clothing and shelter for their men? Had they never read about the Frenchman who had once tried the same thing? Guderian out ran his infantry and got his southern flank mauled,would that would be some more of that high powered German planning and leadership. The same reason why the German counter offensive petered out in the Ardenne, they were't so much beaten as they literally ran out of bullets. Bullets,fuel,manpower and brains were all lacking in that ill conceived fiasco. But yes, the Russian willingness to sustain 15 men killed to every 1 German meant the Germans were running out of men pretty quickly. The Russians only lost about 8 million soldiers, this is hardly a 15:1 ratio...The Germans murdered about 17 million civilians. It wasn't so much tactics that beat the Germans but the lack of ability of their home front to keep their promises and keep their front line supplied and the Russian's willingness to sustain casualties that most western nations would find unacceptable. If the Russians had not been willing to "do what it takes" to stop the Germans then the war in Europe would have a had a much different outcome. It wasn't so much German tacticians that failed but Hilter's refusal to listen to them. Just what was it that Hitler did that was counter to what OKW and OKH wanted? Hitler,initially, was against taking Moscow in 41 he wanted to wait till 42 because he perceived the trap that had been laid for him. Guderian and Halder "pimped" the Moscow for Christmas plan and Hitler allowed his own propaganda to convince him of the weakness of the Russians. Which was the Russian (Zhukov/Tomishinko) plan all along. Nothing was forgotten, the German High Command told Hitler a war on two fronts is unwinnable because of lack of manpower and resources but Hitler would hear none of it. The problem in Germany was not the Generals but other minions too scared to tell Hitler the truth of the situation in respect to resources. It is all recorded. Hitler was nuts so one can say the German high command was nuts for listening to him but then one could say the same about American Generals listening to Bush. As for the Ardennes, since the Germans had no option to but to fight, it really didn't matter how great there resources was, they had what they had and that was that. The Russian army could die fighting the Germans or retreat and die in a gulag or in Lubjanka where many of the Russian officers ended up dying anyway. The choice was theirs. It was lucky for the allies that an idiot was in charge of Germany and not any of its leading Generals whose advice was regularly ignored by Hitler. German Generals are highly rated by those that fought against them and who recognise that if the Germans had the men and resources, the outcome of the war could have been different. Basically Germany lost the war because they overstretched, the German Generals warned Hitler before the war (1937?) that Germany could only fight a short war and German tactics the 'Blitzkrieg' was developed exactly for a short war. After a couple of swift victories Hitler started to believe Germany was invincible but his Generals were never so stupid.

gallowmere -> RE: Cheney: My Hero! (3/28/2008 2:16:41 PM)
Unfortunately, on some level, isn't this exactly what we voted for? When Bush and Cheney were running for reelection in 2004, their entire campaign was explicitly about the idea that you don't want a president who will follow the whims and will of the people. That's what "flip flopping" supposedly was - a tendency to change your position in order to take the same side as the majority of the American people. It was an oddly autocratic message.... but people ate it up. And now, just as they said... he's ignoring the public preferences. You may disagree with him, you may be losing family members and friends to a failing war, and your income might be stagnant or receding.... but you know exactly where they stand. As sad as it is, Bush and Cheney are delivering exactly what they advertized. We democratically voted away our democracy. Let's turn things around this November, shall we?

farglebargle -> RE: Cheney: My Hero! (3/28/2008 4:30:49 PM)
If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal. Emma Goldman

thompsonx -> RE: Cheney: My Hero! (3/28/2008 4:56:44 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: celticlord2112 quote: The same reason why the German counter offensive petered out in the Ardenne, they were't so much beaten as they literally ran out of bullets. Running out of bullets means they were beaten. Part of mounting a campaign is making sure you have enough bullets. Good strategy + bad logistics = Defeat Bad Strategy + Good Logistics = Victory celticlord: Good strategy + bad logistics = defeat Bad strategy + good logistics = defeat thompson [Mod Note: insult removed. Make your points with out the personal insults.]

MmeGigs -> RE: Cheney: My Hero! (3/28/2008 4:57:53 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Sanity Politicians with weak character lick a finger and put it up in the air to see which way the breeze is blowing at a given moment in time, but true leaders can act like a rudder in a sea of chaos. That's a lovely sentiment, but it doesn't have much to do with politics. The fact is that there are no politicians who are completely driven by polls and no politicians who are completely unswayed by them. The polls aren't much of a factor in any politician's decision making, carrying much less weight than what they hear from their party leadership, their contributors and their constituents (in that order). Many polls these days are less a reflection of public opinion than they are a marketing tool for a particular point of view, with a lot of slanted questions and false dichotomies. If a politician doesn't like the results of a particular poll, they can usually find another poll with results that are more favorable to their point of view. The current administration has not been at all shy about citing public opinion as a justification when it has been with them, and used plenty of push-polling to get results that supported their chosen course of action. They only started taking this "polls don't matter" stance when the polls stopped supporting them. In this they are no different than any other administration.

thompsonx -> RE: Cheney: My Hero! (3/28/2008 5:29:33 PM)
Nothing was forgotten, the German High Command told Hitler a war on two fronts is unwinnable because of lack of manpower and resources but Hitler would hear none of it. Sorry...which two fronts are you speaking of? The problem in Germany was not the Generals but other minions too scared to tell Hitler the truth of the situation in respect to resources. It is all recorded. Hitler was nuts so one can say the German high command was nuts for listening to him I don't think Hitler or the generals were nuts but I do think that they were the victims of their own propaganda. It never crossed their mind that they had grabbed the wrong end of a chain saw. but then one could say the same about American Generals listening to Bush. Pretty hard to disagree with this. As for the Ardennes, since the Germans had no option to but to fight, it really didn't matter how great there resources was, they had what they had and that was that. That is what happens when you go to an ass kicking contest without your boots on. The Russian army could die fighting the Germans or retreat and die in a gulag or in Lubjanka where many of the Russian officers ended up dying anyway. The choice was theirs. Perhaps you have been exposed to too much TV. The Russians fought the Germans out of patriotism...The war is referred to in Russia as "The Great Patriotic War". The Germans shot themselves in the foot in Russia by murdering so many people just for being "Russian in public" it did a lot to inspire total hatred for the Germans. Very few German POWs ever made it back to Germany. Payback is a bitch. It was lucky for the allies that an idiot was in charge of Germany and not any of its leading Generals whose advice was regularly ignored by Hitler. When Hitler ignored the advice of one of his generals it was because he was listening to other generals. As I mentioned before Guderian and Halder were keen on going to Moscow for Christmas and the boys at OKW were less than enthusiastic about it. Paulas wanted to disengage from Stalingrad while Manstien felt Stalingrad was winnable. If Hoth could have broken through Zhukov would have had him for lunch but Manstien at the last moment saw the trap for what it was and pulled Hoth back and sent him north to escape the pincer. German Generals are highly rated by those that fought against them Since the Russians were the only ones who did much fighting against the Germans who among the Russians speaks highly of the German generalship. I am not saying that the Germans were incompetent but I don't think they were as hot shit as many on the history channel think. and who recognise that if the Germans had the men and resources, the outcome of the war could have been different. If a bullfrog had springs on his ass he would not smack it every time he landed. Like I said the Germans went to an ass kicking contest without their boots on. When they sucker punched Poland they still took a good hit...the Poles destroyed a third of Hitlers artillery. When Germany sucker punched France they lost a quarter of their air force. Making good these losses cost Hitler time and that put Guderian at the gates of Moscow in mid winter with no longjohns,no ammo,no food and no fuel. Basically Germany lost the war because they overstretched, the German Generals warned Hitler before the war (1937?) that Germany could only fight a short war and German tactics the 'Blitzkrieg' was developed exactly for a short war. After a couple of swift victories Hitler started to believe Germany was invincible but his Generals were never so stupid. I would agree that Hitler went to war unprepared but the Russian army and the Russian General staff are what kept the war from being a blitz. < Message edited by meatcleaver -- 3/28/2008 9:24:09 AM > _____________________________

MmeGigs -> RE: Cheney: My Hero! (3/28/2008 6:13:25 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real0ne Thats exactly right. Its that way all over. Keep us fighting over gay marriage, (as an example), and most other purely irrelevant bullshit while they "control" us and USURP the government. I have said time and time again we are victims of the syndicate. I think so, too. I think we in the US are also victims of our own lack of skepticism. We've allowed ourselves to believe that there are simple answers to life's difficult questions. We consider anyone who offers us an easy answer to be a minor god and refuse to listen to anyone who suggests that a solution may require us to make hard decisions and may require some kind of sacrifice. If you really take a look at the expectations of the US public, it's pretty nuts. We seem to have no awareness of the interconnectedness of things. We scream for NO NEW TAXES while at the same time we bitch about the lack of government services, like potholes that don't get filled or getting a recorded message instead of a human being. We scream for LOW, LOW PRICES while at the same time bitching about the cost of the welfare programs that subsidize the low, low wages that help make those low, low prices possible. We're freaked out that 4,000 Americans have died in Iraq, but we're unaware or don't care that 20,000 Americans die every year because they don't have health insurance. When we get more rational and start demanding that our representatives get more rational, we'll see more rational governance. I don't expect to see this any time soon.

meatcleaver -> RE: Cheney: My Hero! (3/29/2008 4:20:34 AM)
henytzen quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx The Russian army could die fighting the Germans or retreat and die in a gulag or in Lubjanka where many of the Russian officers ended up dying anyway. The choice was theirs. Perhaps you have been exposed to too much TV. The Russians fought the Germans out of patriotism...The war is referred to in Russia as "The Great Patriotic War". The Germans shot themselves in the foot in Russia by murdering so many people just for being "Russian in public" it did a lot to inspire total hatred for the Germans. Very few German POWs ever made it back to Germany. Payback is a bitch. Solzhenitzyn is definitely worth a read. Many Russian troops were sent to the front unarmed at the point of a gun and had to use the weapons of their dead commrades. Getting killed by a German bullet or a Russian one was very much a choice for infantry men and no doubt endless patriotic propaganda helped them make a choice. As Bertrand Russell pointed out, men prefer to die than to think. The Germans did shoot themselves in the foot by opening up a second front and being unable to resource a two front war. While they had the resources, the Russians were no match for the Germans. Once the resources started to run out and Russia was being supplied by the allies, there was only ever going to be one winner. The Germans also made an error by insisting on wanting the surrender of Stalingrad, that is true, they should have gone round it. German Generals are highly rated by those that fought against them Since the Russians were the only ones who did much fighting against the Germans who among the Russians speaks highly of the German generalship. I am not saying that the Germans were incompetent but I don't think they were as hot shit as many on the history channel think. The Russians were no match for the Germans while the Germans were supplied. Again, the German problem wasn't being outwitted by Russian generals but the decision to fight a two front war without the resources. The other problem was that the Germans alienated the populations of potential allies that would have welcomed them as liberators. The Russians were loathed in the Ukraine, Belarus and the Baltic states and would have had hostile territory to fight across if the Germans weren't so ideological about human types. The Germans basically defeated themselves with their own fucked up politics rather than were defeated by the Russians. The Russian campaign was a classic case of wars being lost not won. and who recognise that if the Germans had the men and resources, the outcome of the war could have been different. If a bullfrog had springs on his ass he would not smack it every time he landed. Like I said the Germans went to an ass kicking contest without their boots on. When they sucker punched Poland they still took a good hit...the Poles destroyed a third of Hitlers artillery. When Germany sucker punched France they lost a quarter of their air force. Making good these losses cost Hitler time and that put Guderian at the gates of Moscow in mid winter with no longjohns,no ammo,no food and no fuel. Basically Germany lost the war because they overstretched, the German Generals warned Hitler before the war (1937?) that Germany could only fight a short war and German tactics the 'Blitzkrieg' was developed exactly for a short war. After a couple of swift victories Hitler started to believe Germany was invincible but his Generals were never so stupid. I would agree that Hitler went to war unprepared but the Russian army and the Russian General staff are what kept the war from being a blitz. Nah, Germany definitely defeated itself because too many political decisions ignoring the real military situation. Once Germany had lost the Battle of Britain, there was no way the Germans could win the war but they could have negotiated a favourable peace. To then a year later invade Russia was suicidal, especially when it was becoming abundently clear the U-boat war was failing and there was little impact on trans-Atlantic shipping. < Message edited by meatcleaver -- 3/28/2008 9:24:09 AM > _____________________________

orfunboi -> RE: Cheney: My Hero! (3/29/2008 4:35:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: aviinterra People like him should be forced to work on minimum wage in the center of Detroit during the night shift for ten years. That will get all these stupid ideas of superiority out of his head. However, my concern is that such a statement can be made so brazingly by one of our 'leaders' and it is not a sensation in the news, that people are not at least talking, or- for shock of the idea- revolting or clamouring for a change. The old Soviets must envy Cheney and the U.S. govt., for it is America who has done what the Soviets always dreamed of- complete control of a passive and increasingly stupid population, who waves the flag and has forgotten what it stands for. I am not sure what you mean by this or what you think it would accomplish? Did you used to live in Detroit? What does minimum wage have to do with the war in Iraq or public opinion polls? Why would you stay at the same job for 10 years making min wage and not quit?

orfunboi -> RE: Cheney: My Hero! (3/29/2008 4:52:21 AM)
While I agree, it was a really stupid thing to say in an interview, I agree that they should not put a whole lot of value on a public opinion poll. Polls are too easy to rig in your favor, I just don't trust them.

MasterKalif -> RE: Cheney: My Hero! (3/29/2008 10:52:12 AM)
it doesn't surprise me the brazeness of it all...it doesn't shock me anymore the idiocy of their responses, much like when Rumsfeld once defended the Iraqi "looters" right after the take over of Baghdad as an expression of their freedom...these guys are a joke, and laugh at the American public. I am positive if an American politician back in the 60's had said that, it would have been paramount to a scandal. What we have here is public "apathy" in letting these fools be in government. The sad thing is, even a dictatorship is better in that at least they are telling it to the public as it is...meaning..."this is a dictatorship, have no qualms about it"...

slvemike4u -> RE: Cheney: My Hero! (3/29/2008 11:21:37 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: thompsonx quote: ORIGINAL: slvemike4u This is a joke right.No inteligent indivisual could compare the Bush/Chaney oil adventure on behalf of Haliburton with the liberation of Europe from Nazi occupation..... slvmike4u: You might want to do a little reading on the economic history of WWII. For a relatively few body bags (about a quarter million in all theaters...Pacific,Africa and Europe)the U.S. filled up the bank vaults up pretty well. It was the Russians who stopped Hitler and his "supermen". thompson "Relatively few body bags"".Again I have to applaud the high level comedy to be found here.When Russia was reeling and "uncle Joe" was begging,it was "the Arsenal of Democracy"that armed his divisions.When Britian stood alone against Hitler and his Supermen it was Lend-Lease that kept Churchill and his island nation afloat.Surely in the final analyisis there were financial advantages to having fought and been on the winning side of a global conflict but money alone wasn't the driving factor in our participation in the conflict.please before suggesting how I might improve my reading list try to expand your own narrow minded views with a little historical perspective

thompsonx -> RE: Cheney: My Hero! (3/29/2008 8:53:44 PM)
Relatively few body bags"".Again I have to applaud the high level comedy to be found here. Russia lost 25 million people we lost a quarter million...hardly high comedy...just simple arithmetic. When Russia was reeling and "uncle Joe" was begging,it was "the Arsenal of Democracy"that armed his divisions. The U.S. supplied about 10% of Russia's war material. When Britian stood alone against Hitler and his Supermen it was Lend-Lease that kept Churchill and his island nation afloat.Surely in the final analyisis there were financial advantages to having fought and been on the winning side of a global conflict but money alone wasn't the driving factor in our participation in the conflict. please before suggesting how I might improve my reading list try to expand your own narrow minded views with a little historical perspective I have. My point is that the Russians lost 100 times more people (about 8 million soldiers and about 17 million civilians murdered)than the U.S. and produced 90% of their own war materials. The Russians faced the Bulk of the German army(nearly 200 divisions) while the allies in western Europe faced about twenty divisions. If these facts astonish you,or if you feel that they are inaccurate then please show me where I am mistaken. thompson

luckydog1 -> RE: Cheney: My Hero! (3/29/2008 10:17:13 PM)
Slvemike. That is not really an uncommon view, that Thompson is expressing. It is the standard line of much of the "left" Chomsky, Zinn, Micheal Moore, ect. We have Europeon posters who regularly express such ideas. Anyone who buys into the standard peacenik line of "All Wars are fought for economic greed", implicitly includes ww2.. Also the Neo Nazi types think America was tricked into that war by the Jewish banker conspiricy... Thompson is kind of right, if you look at a body bag to Land occupyied ratio, it's very similar to Iraq. The banks/ bussiness are making lots of money. And its not a rare thing to say that we are there at the Behest of Isreal (substitute World Wide Jewish conspiricy.) I don't agree with Thompson, on either war....

UncleNasty -> RE: Cheney: My Hero! (3/29/2008 10:18:40 PM)
"The best argument against democracy is a 5 minute conversation with the eaverage voter." Winston Churchill

farglebargle -> RE: Cheney: My Hero! (3/30/2008 3:33:48 AM)
quote: All Wars are fought for economic greed", implicitly includes ww2.. Yeah, AND? The US stayed out of WWII until Japan took the lead in grabbing economic assets in the Pacific. If stopping Hitler was so damn important, people could have enforced the terms of the treaty in the 30's. Because when you let a piece of shit like Hitler actually act "Above The Law", you get Lies, Spies and Torture. I guess Prescott Bush's profits from collaberating with the Nazis were more important than saving the Jews and Gays from the ovens, eh? HELL, The Japanese attacked in response to economic embargos -- I suspect if the freaking German Government didn't declare war against the US first, the US wouldn't have done shit. Shit, wasn't the first act in support of the Allies the November 1939, amendment of the American Neutrality Act, to permit "Cash and carry" purchases by the Allies? First Rule of Everything: Figure out who is making a profit.

thompsonx -> RE: Cheney: My Hero! (3/30/2008 9:05:01 AM)
Solzhenitzyn is definitely worth a read. I am sure you are aware that he was equally as critical of the west as he was of Stalin. You do remember that it was Krushchev who authorized the publication of his work. Many Russian troops were sent to the front unarmed at the point of a gun and had to use the weapons of their dead commrades. This is common propaganda but could you offer us a cite for this assertion. The German generals comment often on both the quality and quantity of the Russian armament. Hans Rudell the famous stuka pilot comments quite vociferously about the huge quantities of Russian tanks and other heavy equipment. His opinions are echoed by Generals Hoth,Guderian,Mellenthin,Halder,Pallus and many others who were in a position to see first hand how well equppped the Russian soldier was. Getting killed by a German bullet or a Russian one was very much a choice for infantry men and no doubt endless patriotic propaganda helped them make a choice. If your country is attacked and you see first hand the wholesale murder of non combatants it is not easy to contract "patriotic fever" As Bertrand Russell pointed out, men prefer to die than to think. The Germans did shoot themselves in the foot by opening up a second front and being unable to resource a two front war. Which two front war are we talking about here? While they had the resources, the Russians were no match for the Germans. Once the resources started to run out and Russia was being supplied by the allies, Time line here is: June 41: Germany attacks Russia. December 41: Russia kicks Germany's ass in front of Moscow, after which it was essentially a foot race back to Germany for the supermen with Ivan in hot pursuit. This would be before any lend lease was ever conceived for Russia. U.S. lend lease to Russia consisted of about 10% of the Russian war material used in the war. there was only ever going to be one winner. After Moscow it was a "fait acompli". The Germans also made an error by insisting on wanting the surrender of Stalingrad, that is true, they should have gone round it. The original plan was to block Stalingrad from the oil of the Caucasus. Going around it was not an option. Once again the strategy of Zhukov and Tomishinko was the same as Moscow. Put the bait out and when the poacher goes for it "crush him like an empty beer can" The Russians were no match for the Germans while the Germans were supplied. Again, the German problem wasn't being outwitted by Russian generals but the decision to fight a two front war without the resources. The German generals were outwitted by the Russians by the simple fact that the Russians enticed them to outrun their logistics. Which two front war are you talking about. Germany did not have a two front war until June of 44. The other problem was that the Germans alienated the populations of potential allies that would have welcomed them as liberators. The Russians were loathed in the Ukraine, Belarus and the Baltic states and would have had hostile territory to fight across if the Germans weren't so ideological about human types. Everything I have read says just the opposite...I would be interested in reading what ever you have to offer to support this position. I agree that the Germans "shot themselves in the foot" by their murdering of millions of non combatants but not that these people looked upon the Germans as liberators. The Germans basically defeated themselves with their own fucked up politics rather than were defeated by the Russians. The Russian campaign was a classic case of wars being lost not won. This is a classic philosophy of the cold war which states that (just like the Germans thought) the Russians were incapable of sophisticated thought. The whine that it was the Russian winter and not the Russian soldier which defeated the German "superman". This position neglects the obvious fact that the Russian soldier also was fighting in the same winter conditions. The difference was that the Russian had warm clothing,low temp. lubricants for his weapons and superior weapons. And of course superior generals. It may be argued that Zhukov went to German war colleges(where the Germans wrote him off as a drunken madman). Nah, Germany definitely defeated itself because too many political decisions ignoring the real military situation. Which ones would these be? Once Germany had lost the Battle of Britain, there was no way the Germans could win the war but they could have negotiated a favourable peace. To then a year later invade Russia was suicidal, especially when it was becoming abundently clear the U-boat war was failing and there was little impact on trans-Atlantic shipping. How does the air war over Britain and the Uboat war have anything to do with the eastern front....except that Germany must have known that the Britts were pissed and would come spank them just as soon as they got a paddle.

thompsonx -> RE: Cheney: My Hero! (3/30/2008 9:25:46 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: luckydog1 Slvemike. That is not really an uncommon view, that Thompson is expressing. It is the standard line of much of the "left" Chomsky, Zinn, Micheal Moore, ect. We have Europeon posters who regularly express such ideas. Anyone who buys into the standard peacenik line of "All Wars are fought for economic greed", implicitly includes ww2.. Also the Neo Nazi types think America was tricked into that war by the Jewish banker conspiricy... Thompson is kind of right, if you look at a body bag to Land occupyied ratio, it's very similar to Iraq. The banks/ bussiness are making lots of money. And its not a rare thing to say that we are there at the Behest of Isreal (substitute World Wide Jewish conspiricy.) I don't agree with Thompson, on either war.... lucky: If you are trying to imply that I have ever made the statement that wars are for some world wide Jewish conspiracy you will need to bring up the post of mine that would substantiate that position. In the absence of such validation on your part it would be in keeping with your high standards of truth to exonerate me of such an implication. I do stand behind my many post stating that all wars are fought for economic gain. those who gain belong to many different political and religious dogmas...none of which is important...it is all about the "Benjamin's" My problem is not so much with imperialism as it is with the disingenuous that is attached to it. I would prefer a Cesar or an Alexander to a Roosevelt or a Bush any day. I do not approve of either but it is clear which is the more deceitful in their thuggery. thompson

UncleNasty -> RE: Cheney: My Hero! (3/30/2008 10:02:59 AM)
quote: First Rule of Everything: Figure out who is making a profit. There is much truth in your statement farglebargle. I take the mention of profit and immediately move my thoughts to our concepts and "practices" of money. What is money? Who "creates" our money? Who controls our money? Basic questions that few have very much understanding of. That is tragic as money is what our lives are about first. As much as we want our lives to be about family, friends, dungeons, school, etc., it is money that holds the most prominent place in most of our lives. The evidence for this is that when we don't have enough none of the others are really possible. Article 1, Section 8 of the US Constitution states: Congress shall have the power to ..... coin money, regulate the value thereof, and of foreign coin, and fix the tandard of weights and measures; John Adams said: All the perplexities, confusions and distresses in America arise not from defects in the constitution or confederation, not from want of honor or virtue, as much as from downright ignorance of the nature coin, credit and circulation. Thomas Jefferson said: If the American people ever allow private banks to control the issue of their money, first by inflation and then by deflation, then banks and corporations that will grow up around them will deprive the people of their property until their children will wake up homeless on the continent their fathers conquered. Since 1913, when the Federal Reserve was issued its charter, the value of our paper currency has diminished by 96%. Meanwhile the costs of goods and services has remained essentially the same. In 1913 I could have purchased a fine meal - dinner, drinks and dessert - for myself and two friends at a posh 4 star restaurant in Louisville with a one ounce gold coin. Gold at that time was approximately $20/oz. Today I could do the same thing. Gold currently is $930/oz. Gold (real money) has maintained its purchasing power, or value. Our paper currency (fiat currency) has lost its purchasing power. I could go on with various examples, and various opinions of my own. But I won't. Those who already know have no need for me to do that. Those who don't care just wish I would shut the **** up. Those who are curious or interested are already considering how to find additional sources of information. To the last group here are a few: A search for Ed Vieira will turn up some very good information. He is a Constitutional Attorney and has written eloquently on this topic. A simple speech he made at the Rotary Club of New York can be found by searching "Ed Vieira Thrashing the Constitution." It is a simple speech he made but the import of his words are beyond my ability to describe. Another good source is Edward G. Griffin's "The Creature From Jekyl Island." Be well, live free, Uncle Nasty

luckydog1 -> RE: Cheney: My Hero! (3/30/2008 10:29:11 AM)
Sorry if you misunderstood me Thompson. But I named 2 catagories of people that hold to a WW2 was a "bad" war, to point out that your opinion, while it is a minority view is fairly widespread. Those two (perhaps there are more) are hard left and Neo Nazi. I do NOT think you are a Neo Nazi (of any variety) at all. You are most cetainly a leftist.

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