quote:

My problem is not so much with imperialism as it is with the disingenuous that is attached to it. I would prefer a Cesar or an Alexander to a Roosevelt or a Bush any day. I do not approve of either but it is clear which is the more deceitful in their thuggery.

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

Relatively few body bags"".Again I have to applaud the high level comedy to be found here.
Russia lost 25 million people we lost a quarter million...hardly high comedy...just simple arithmetic.

When Russia was reeling and "uncle Joe" was begging,it was "the Arsenal of Democracy"that armed his divisions.
The U.S. supplied about 10% of Russia's war material.


When Britian stood alone against Hitler and his Supermen it was Lend-Lease that kept Churchill and his island nation afloat.Surely in the final analyisis there were financial advantages to having fought and been on the winning side of a global conflict but money alone wasn't the driving factor in our participation in the conflict.



please before suggesting how I might improve my reading list try to expand your own narrow minded views with a little historical perspective
I have.  My point is that the Russians lost 100 times more people (about 8 million soldiers and about 17 million civilians murdered)than the U.S. and produced 90% of their own war materials.  The Russians faced the Bulk of the German army(nearly 200 divisions) while the allies in western Europe faced about twenty divisions.  If these facts astonish you,or if you feel that they are inaccurate then please show me where I am mistaken.
thompson

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ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Thompson no one is suggesting that the Red Army wasn't  engaging large numbers of German divisions on the eastern front .These were not in all cases front-line division's
Which cases were they not front line divisions?


,some wern't even German Div's a sizable segment of Axis forces on the eastern front were supplied by the puppet regime's of eastern Europe
How sizable?  If I remember my history one of the Romanian divisions fought to the last man.


.Certainly as the casualties piled up a good portion of the German div.were of lesser quality in both training and material.Numbers alone didn't win the war on the eastern front the Russians had no capability of disrupting German capacity to produce the material needed to wage war in th twentieth century,that job fell to the English with night time bombing,and the Americans during day time (where a good amount of those body bags were needed)bombing runs.
"Bomber Harris" tried to explain to the Americans how to deal with a bombing campaign against Germany.  All of his advice fell on deaf ears.  What the 8th Air Force did besides fill body bags was to give the German air force a lot of target practice.  As to the effectiveness of the 8th Air Force it was negligible until they got fighter cover all the way to and from the target.  This did not occur till late in the war.  Since the Russians had effectively beaten the Germans before the Americans came into the war your point is invalid.  The battle for Moscow ends in December of 41.  Most historians mark this as the turning point in the war.

Might German equipment kept flowing and no other pressure exerted by the western allies the outcome might have been different.
The allies had little effect on the German war machine with their bombing campaign.  Germany's failure to completely mobilize for war and Russia's total mobilization coupled with superior armaments and massive manpower is what ended the "supermen's" attempt to conquer Russia.

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ORIGINAL: slvemike4u

Thompsonx realy having dificulty understanding your position .Fronts in the Mediterranean don't count
If you are referring to Rommel in Africa that was part of a enveloping move to take the Russian southern flank and control the oil fields of Iran.
If you are talking about Italy and Sicily that comes long after the Russians had established who was going to be the victor. 
"Smiling Fritz" kept Mark Clark on his heels all the way up the boot with minimal troops and minimal losses.


.France and western Eorope don't count.
No.  They had been conquered in 1940.  There is no war in western Europe until June of 44.


Constant bombing of the military/industrial capacity of both Germany proper and the ensalved nation's of Europedont count.
I would be willing to look at any figures you could provide concerning how this affected the war on the eastern front.


Stalin certainly felt different when demanding (totally unrealistic cosidering shipping limits)the Democracies invade Europe in 1942
Why wouldn't Stalin seek relief....Russia was bleeding.  They were the ones doing the "heavy lifting.  They were the ones doing the bleeding and dying....well them and the Germans.
Of course if I were Churchill or Roosevelt I would let him bleed too.  Who wants a full grown hungry bear in their front room.
thompson