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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

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ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Operation Barbarosa ran into the ground because Germany couldn't produce enough munitions and keep their front lines supplied.
So it would appear that you are saying that the "state of the art" military strategists of Germany forgot to figure out how many bullets they would need to conquer Russia?  Isn't that a lot like going to an ass kicking contest without your boots on?
If I remember my history correctly they also ran out of oil for their second rate tanks. Didn't they also run out of food clothing and shelter for their men?  Had they never read about the Frenchman who had once tried the same thing?
Guderian out ran his infantry and got his southern flank mauled,would that would be some more of that high powered German planning and leadership.
The same reason why the German counter offensive petered out in the Ardenne, they were't so much beaten as they literally ran out of bullets.
Bullets,fuel,manpower and brains were all lacking in that ill conceived fiasco.


But yes, the Russian willingness to sustain 15 men killed to every 1 German meant the Germans were running out of men pretty quickly.
The Russians only lost about 8 million soldiers, this is hardly a 15:1 ratio...The Germans murdered about 17 million civilians.

It wasn't so much tactics that beat the Germans but the lack of ability of their home front to keep their promises and keep their front line supplied and the Russian's willingness to sustain casualties that most western nations would find unacceptable.
If the Russians had not been willing to "do what it takes" to stop the Germans then the war in Europe would have a had a much different outcome.

It wasn't so much German tacticians that failed but Hilter's refusal to listen to them.
Just what was it that Hitler did that was counter to what OKW and OKH wanted?
Hitler,initially, was against taking Moscow in 41 he wanted to wait till 42 because he perceived the trap that had been laid for him.  Guderian and Halder "pimped" the Moscow for Christmas plan and Hitler allowed his own propaganda to convince him of the weakness of the Russians.  Which was the Russian (Zhukov/Tomishinko) plan all along.

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ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

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The same reason why the German counter offensive petered out in the Ardenne, they were't so much beaten as they literally ran out of bullets.

Running out of bullets means they were beaten.  Part of mounting a campaign is making sure you have enough bullets.

Good strategy + bad logistics = Defeat

Bad Strategy + Good Logistics = Victory

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ORIGINAL: Sanity

Politicians with weak character lick a finger and put it up in the air to see which way the breeze is blowing at a given moment in time, but true leaders can act like a rudder in a sea of chaos.

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ORIGINAL: Real0ne

Thats exactly right.  Its that way all over.  Keep us fighting over gay marriage, (as an example), and most other purely irrelevant bullshit while they "control" us and USURP the government.

I have said time and time again we are victims of the syndicate.

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

The Russian army could die fighting the Germans or retreat and die in a gulag or in Lubjanka where many of the Russian officers ended up dying anyway. The choice was theirs.
Perhaps you have been exposed to too much TV.  The Russians fought the Germans out of patriotism...The war is referred to in Russia as "The Great Patriotic War". 
The Germans shot themselves in the foot in Russia by murdering so many people just for being "Russian in public" it did a lot to inspire total hatred for the Germans.  Very few German POWs ever made it back to Germany.  Payback is a bitch.

Solzhenitzyn is definitely worth a read. Many Russian troops were sent to the front unarmed at the point of a gun and had to use the weapons of their dead commrades. Getting killed by a German bullet or a Russian one was very much a choice for infantry men and no doubt endless patriotic propaganda helped them make a choice. As Bertrand Russell pointed out, men prefer to die than to think.

The Germans did shoot themselves in the foot by opening up a second front and being unable to resource a two front war. While they had the resources, the Russians were no match for the Germans. Once the resources started to run out and Russia was being supplied by the allies, there was only ever going to be one winner. The Germans also made an error by insisting on wanting the surrender of Stalingrad, that is true, they should have gone round it.


German Generals are highly rated by those that fought against them
Since the Russians were the only ones who did much fighting against the Germans who among the Russians speaks highly of the German generalship.  I am not saying that the Germans were incompetent but I don't think they were as hot shit as many on the history channel think.
 
The Russians were no match for the Germans while the Germans were supplied. Again, the German problem wasn't being outwitted by Russian generals but the decision to fight a two front war without the resources. The other problem was that the Germans alienated the populations of potential allies that would have welcomed them as liberators. The Russians were loathed in the Ukraine, Belarus and the Baltic states and would have had hostile territory to fight across if the Germans weren't so ideological about human types. The Germans basically defeated themselves with their own fucked up politics rather than were defeated by the Russians. The Russian campaign was a classic case of wars being lost not won.

and who recognise that if the Germans had the men and resources, the outcome of the war could have been different.
If a bullfrog had springs on his ass he would not smack it every time he landed.
Like I said the Germans went to an ass kicking contest without their boots on.
When they sucker punched Poland they still took a good hit...the Poles destroyed a third of Hitlers artillery.
When Germany sucker punched France they lost a quarter of their air force.
Making good these losses cost Hitler time and that put Guderian at the gates of Moscow in mid winter with no longjohns,no ammo,no food and no fuel.

Basically Germany lost the war because they overstretched, the German Generals warned Hitler before the war (1937?) that Germany could only fight a short war and German tactics the 'Blitzkrieg' was developed exactly for a short war. After a couple of swift victories Hitler started to believe Germany was invincible but his Generals were never so stupid.
I would agree that Hitler went to war unprepared but the Russian army and the Russian General staff are what kept the war from being a blitz.

Nah, Germany definitely defeated itself because too many political decisions ignoring the real military situation. Once Germany had lost the Battle of Britain, there was no way the Germans could win the war but they could have negotiated a favourable peace. To then a year later invade Russia was suicidal, especially when it was becoming abundently clear the U-boat war was failing and there was little impact on trans-Atlantic shipping.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 3/28/2008 9:24:09 AM >

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ORIGINAL: aviinterra

People like him should be forced to work on minimum wage in the center of Detroit during the night shift for ten years. That will get all these stupid ideas of superiority out of his head.

However, my concern is that such a statement can be made so brazingly by one of our 'leaders' and it is not a sensation in the news, that people are not at least talking, or- for shock of the idea- revolting or clamouring for a change. The old Soviets must envy Cheney and the U.S. govt., for it is America who has done what the Soviets always dreamed of- complete control of a passive and increasingly stupid population, who waves the flag and has forgotten what it stands for.

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ORIGINAL: thompsonx

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ORIGINAL: slvemike4u
This is a joke right.No inteligent indivisual could compare the Bush/Chaney oil adventure on behalf of Haliburton with the liberation of Europe from Nazi occupation.....

slvmike4u:
You might want to do a little reading on the economic history of WWII.  For a relatively few body bags (about a quarter million in all theaters...Pacific,Africa and Europe)the U.S. filled up the bank vaults up pretty well.
It was the Russians who stopped Hitler and his "supermen".
thompson

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All Wars are fought for economic greed", implicitly includes ww2..

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ORIGINAL: luckydog1

Slvemike.  That is not really an uncommon view, that Thompson is expressing.  It is the standard line of much of the "left" Chomsky, Zinn, Micheal Moore, ect.  We have Europeon posters who regularly express such ideas.  Anyone who buys into the standard peacenik line of "All Wars are fought for economic greed", implicitly includes ww2..

Also the Neo Nazi types think America was tricked into that war by the Jewish banker conspiricy...

Thompson is kind of right, if you look at a body bag to Land occupyied ratio, it's very similar to Iraq.  The banks/ bussiness are making lots of money.  And its not a rare thing to say that we are there at the Behest of Isreal (substitute World Wide Jewish conspiricy.)

I don't agree with Thompson, on either war....

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First Rule of Everything: Figure out who is making a profit.