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RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/27/2008 9:04:54 AM

popeye1250

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"We should not involve ourselves in foreign entanglements."
-George Washington-

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RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/27/2008 9:13:09 AM

DomKen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Not to hijack this high quality discussion but why not?

Britain was giving the United States a lesson in grandeur and nobility .

You didn't really expect us to learn that lesson did you?

BTW now that Becham and his hag are back across the pond would you all be dears and keep them?

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RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/27/2008 9:33:33 AM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

The United States government never cut the IRA a check. The United States government never gave the IRA a training facility. The United States government never provided the IRA with intelligence on potential targets.

.....all true. What the US government did was fail to prevent US citizens from funding both the IRA and so-called Loyalist terrorists. Despite being asked to over decades. That Irish vote was just a teeny bit more important.

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RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/27/2008 9:42:59 AM

kittinSol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

BTW now that Becham and his hag are back across the pond would you all be dears and keep them?

I can't do anything about it, I'm on the wrong side of the pond now

. But I'll forward your request on. I'm sure it'll have a big impact.

Do I get a good behaviour star

?

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RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/27/2008 9:49:30 AM

DomKen

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Oops my bad, could have sworn you were a brit.

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RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/27/2008 9:57:16 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

The United States government never cut the IRA a check. The United States government never gave the IRA a training facility. The United States government never provided the IRA with intelligence on potential targets.

.....all true. What the US government did was fail to prevent US citizens from funding both the IRA and so-called Loyalist terrorists. Despite being asked to over decades. That Irish vote was just a teeny bit more important.

Before 9/11 the USA was quite comfortable with terrorism, especially terrorism that was convenient to its policies and its view of the world.

Come to think of it, it still is.

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RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/27/2008 10:04:25 AM

kittinSol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

Oops my bad, could have sworn you were a brit.

I am... Just an expatriate Brit.

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RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/27/2008 11:50:56 AM

Politesub53

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Firstly re the IRA funding. Libya was a major source, then Noraid, then organised crime and collections in Ireland and the UK.

Getting back to Iraq, America made a major political error, once Saddam was defeated. They banned any Baath party members from taking political office, including teaching in schools and colleges. The result was the collapse of any semblance of government, and an insufficient number of qualified personel to run Iraqs supply industries. The result of that added to the sectarian chaos already taking place.

The problems with simply walking away now would be as follows. Firstly the lack of Iraqi oil getting onto the worlds markets. This may or may not be a long term problem. Secondly the possibility of a Shia fundementalist government, backed by Iran. This would be a double disaster, it would most likely support terrorism. It would also be a threat to Saudi Arabia, which is a mainly Sunni nation. If the trouble then spread to Saudi America would get dragged back into the mix, like it or not.

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RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/27/2008 11:55:16 AM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

McCain says leaving Iraq might mean Civil War.
Seeks says that the Brits leaving Bhasra has resulted in the start of a civil conflict
Shia v Shia.
In today's news.

The flaw in your argument is twofold, firstly the British have not left, and gave active air support to government forces yesterday. Secondly thehia dominated government it actively taking on the terrorists. This was the plan all along. I would consider civil war to be between the Sunni/Shia/Kurds, which isnt the case in Basra. Hopefully the government forces prevail here, or its back to square one.

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RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/27/2008 12:13:04 PM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War

Even if we accept the assertion that the US was wrong to invade Iraq, our presence there is the reality of today. Given that, is there a moral reason for staying, despite the error that put our troops there in the first place?

I have two questions for you:

1) What makes you think the United States has the capacity to resolve the "reality of today"?

2) Are you the bloke on another thread talking of individual liberty? You must realise that individual liberty will flower only when the occupying forces leave.

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RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/27/2008 12:15:32 PM

pahunkboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War

Even if we accept the assertion that the US was wrong to invade Iraq, our presence there is the reality of today. Given that, is there a moral reason for staying, despite the error that put our troops there in the first place?

Celtic, I realize the inner cities are riddled with gangs and what not. Disparity between the elites and the peons... indeed many job are outsourced. People hardly even vote here- let alone form a civil war. Besides the north won the first one.

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RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/27/2008 12:24:30 PM

celticlord2112

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

That argument is very close to Mao Zedong's observation that political power flows from the barrel of a gun, and contradicts your earlier "might is not right" stance.

The above is so presposterous, I'll assume you said it as a joke :-) .

Far from being preposterous, it is the practical consequence of the argument you are advancing.

Feel free to correct me, but you began by justifying Iran's sponsorship of terrorism on the basis of presumed predations on their sovereignty by the United States. You then went on to cite presumed examples of American bad conduct as another justification. (NB: I say "presumed" because while I do not blithely accept them as examples of American misdeeds, even if they are in fact such examples, you still are mounting a defense of terrorism)

If terrorism is justifiable, how does that differ from Mao Zedong's credo? How does that not contradict your statement "The power of might does not make one right."?

Preposterous? Hardly. Not even remotely so.

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RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/27/2008 12:31:12 PM

meatcleaver

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America's support of terrorism is not presumed, it is a fact but no doubt American patriots would say America was supporting freedom fighters.

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RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/27/2008 12:33:20 PM

domiguy

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Tooo funny! You are willing to sacrifice the lives of American soldiers because "we broke it?" Ican't think of a more noble death...As my blood leaches into the sand to proudly say I gave my life because we choose to compound one error for another. Is this how you feel about your fellow Americans? Willing to waste their lives over such nonsense?

We have some sort of a moral obligation? Pleeeez! We have no more of an obligation here than we had when we saved Rwanda or all of the Africans who died from AIDS....Ooops. Our soldiers lives are only up for barter when there is something lucrative being offered in return. No natural resources?...Go fuck yourself!

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RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/27/2008 12:36:56 PM

celticlord2112

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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

America's support of terrorism is not presumed, it is a fact but no doubt American patriots would say America was supporting freedom fighters.

It is an assertion. It is nothing more than that. Proclamations from the far side of the Atlantic do not alter that reality.

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RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/27/2008 12:43:13 PM

SugarMyChurro

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I remember an episode of "That 70s Show" where Kelso has his hand stuck in a vase because he's holding onto something inside the vase. All he has to do is let go of the object, his hand changing its physical shape, and his hand will come free. Then he could retrieve the object inside the vase by another means. But he won't let go of the object because he's just too stupid to think that far ahead.

Remind anyone of anything in particular?

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RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/27/2008 12:44:32 PM

celticlord2112

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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy
Tooo funny! You are willing to sacrifice the lives of American soldiers because "we broke it?" Ican't think of a more noble death...As my blood leaches into the sand to proudly say I gave my life because we choose to compound one error for another. Is this how you feel about your fellow Americans? Willing to waste their lives over such nonsense?

Rather, I am arguing that our error has created a situation where prudent defense of US interests mandates putting a strong stable central government in place before US soldiers depart. Just walking away is a more dangerous option than staying, particularly in the practical terms of soldier's lives lost (Iraq devolving into total war and anarchy will pull US soldiers back in eventually, at a level of violence far greater than currently prevails.).

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RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/27/2008 12:45:04 PM

Mercnbeth

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

I remember an episode of "That 70s Show" where Kelso has his hand stuck in a vase because he's holding onto something inside the vase. All he has to do is let go of the object, his hand changing its physical shape, and his hand will come free. Then he could retrieve the object inside the vase by another means. But he won't let go of the object because he's just too stupid to think that far ahead.

Remind anyone of anything in particular?

The 2008 Democratic nomination process.

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RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/27/2008 12:46:12 PM

pahunkboy

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I have come frighting bored over the war.   We will be there is some way shape or form, and will leave promply when oil is done. {I promise you}

what DOES bother me is the insane costs   to    ME,    courtesy of guys in ties,     where no one is ever resposable for anything.   The debt- is why   eggs   are 2.19   a dozen.   Bread is $2.49 , and milk is $1.92 for a half galllon.

the buying power of the currency- is siphoned off.   this means- less food on the table.

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RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/27/2008 12:48:43 PM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

America's support of terrorism is not presumed, it is a fact but no doubt American patriots would say America was supporting freedom fighters.

It is an assertion. It is nothing more than that. Proclamations from the far side of the Atlantic do not alter that reality.

Al qaeda organizing 9/11 is an assertion too.

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