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RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/28/2008 12:49:38 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		General ...
 
This thread, and all like them, make me believe that the way of the world is to place political views in front of the obvious.
 
Why can't Iraq just be what it is? Why do we have to make it, what it really isn't?
 
Oh, but Iraq has to be in civil war ... and if it isn't already, it will be if we leave, or if we stay. It can't possibly be that the brutality of the past few decades, bred some brutal people. Nope, it is a civil war, plain and simple. True, there are very few doing the actual killing ... but, everyone else wishes they were ... its a civil war after all. It's because they are Muslims, and it says right there on page 945 ... I have it highlighted ... death to all infidels.
 
Iraq had to be a power as dangerous as Nazi Germany ... and Saddam was clearly in league with Hitler. Ignore those reports from our own troops, about how half the vehicles captured outside Baghdad had no ammunition or fuel. Perhaps we can alter the statement to be, "The greatest power since Nazi Germany, that was so logistically compromised that it couldn't get it's hands on a fucking tank of gas ... in Iraq!" No, stick with the first one ... it sounds better politically.
 
Iraq has to be President Bush's fault. He's a monkey and I didn't vote for him ... lets blame it all on him. Ignore that part about the knee-jerk nation clammering for action ... that never happened. Or maybe it was Rummy ... fucking guy can't even wear a properly pressed suit. How can he properly press a military campaign. It's his fault. We can blame it on a guy named Dick ... he's such a dick after all.
 
Iraq has to be the fault of Imperialistic America, and our friendship with Israel. Thats it ... I hate those fucking people, and the Americans like them, so thats to blame. Besides, I read something written by a Jew once ... proving once and for all, that the whole lot have ill intent on their mind ... and those fucking Imperial Americans read it too.
 
It's about oil, and how scared we are of China ... yeah, thats it.
 
The one things Iraq doesn't seem to be able to be ... is the one thing that it actually is ... a big, giant, massive, fuckup by and infant superpower ... the same kind of fuckups superpowers have been making since before Alexander the Great.
 
Question class ... did anyone actually believe we were going to be better at this, than the ancient Romans?

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RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/28/2008 1:04:41 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

The one things Iraq doesn't seem to be able to be ... is the one thing that it actually is ... a big, giant, massive, fuckup by and infant superpower



What measure are you using as an indicator of "fuck up"?

For some, fighting them over there is the key measure.

For others, bulldozing the place and handing out construction and oil contracts right, left and centre, is the key measure.

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/28/2008 1:06:05 PM   
mnottertail


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Status: offline 		Caitlyn:

I am with you and this whole deal and always was,  all the way with the exception of this:

Iraq has to be President Bush's fault. He's a monkey and I didn't vote for him ... lets blame it all on him. Ignore that part about the knee-jerk nation clammering for action ... that never happened. Or maybe it was Rummy ... fucking guy can't even wear a properly pressed suit. How can he properly press a military campaign. It's his fault. We can blame it on a guy named Dick ... he's such a dick after all.


look at Bush's War on PBS.org (for only one example) even the intel guys are saying that is not what we said, and Bush, Cheney, Rumsfield framed everything in terms of Iraq by outright lie or vast and nefarious prestidigitation.

It ain't that we didnt know, and I said this BEFORE we went into Iraq, way before, if you didn't know we were going into Iraq the day that Bush named Cheney as his running mate...........it's out here....

Many of course, pulled their white t-shirts up over their head, lit the torches and said, 'Cmon you guys lets go get em!!!!'

Shades of Forrest.

But, we don't learn from history:


“Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”
Herman Goering
Ron  

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RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/28/2008 1:10:09 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Question class ... did anyone actually believe we were going to be better at this, than the ancient Romans?


If America was as bad as the ancient Romans you would have slaughtered half of Iraq by now and commited genocide in Iran. (Maybe Bush is thinking about it) As Ceasar boasted, he had killed a million people and enslaved another million. Now he and his ilk really were ancient fascists.

The US is the first imperial nation with 100% sufferage, that is what pisses off many thoughtful people. Propaganda seriously works in the US.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 3/28/2008 1:12:26 PM >

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RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/28/2008 1:23:07 PM   
cjan


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Joined: 2/21/2008
Status: offline 		Great quotation from Goering, Ron.  Shows that that some things never change.Thanks

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RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/28/2008 1:23:34 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail

Caitlyn:

I am with you and this whole deal and always was,  all the way with the exception of this:

Iraq has to be President Bush's fault. He's a monkey and I didn't vote for him ... lets blame it all on him. Ignore that part about the knee-jerk nation clammering for action ... that never happened. Or maybe it was Rummy ... fucking guy can't even wear a properly pressed suit. How can he properly press a military campaign. It's his fault. We can blame it on a guy named Dick ... he's such a dick after all.

“Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”
Herman Goering
Ron  


Both views make sense.

Propaganda is a powerful tool. I was watching a film from the '70s the other day. Yul Brynner was playing the part of an Afghan in an Afghan tribe. 'Long story short, he was the only "Afghan" who wasn't wearing a beard and was honourable. The other characters were spineless, thieving cowards with beards as long as you like. Even the most innocent looking films tell a story; repeated versions of the same story will play tricks with people's brains.

But, Caitlyn is spot on with the argument that the people have to take a fair share of the responsibility. I mean, these people are elected in a democratic system.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to mnottertail)
Profile   Post #: 126
RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/28/2008 1:34:01 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mnottertail


“Naturally the common people don't want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor in Germany. That is understood. But after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine policy, and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is to tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”
Herman Goering
Ron  


Yep. Great quote Ron and how true that quote is.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/28/2008 2:26:16 PM   
caitlyn


Posts: 3473
Joined: 12/22/2004
Status: offline 		I think Ron, that is was more than just people in white t-shirts.
 
Congress ... both parties, voted overwhelmingly to authorize the use of force against Iraq, and unless we are to believe Senator Clinton's line (you can remove the 'n' and it still works) that they voted to authorize force, but didn't think it would be used ... you get the notion that at least a strong majority of our leadership would have made the same decision.
 
Not really my point though. We elected these people, and gave them the power to abuse their power. Running from that by attempting to assign individual blame, will solve nothing. Nor will the agenda of so many Tom, Dick and meatcleavers of the world ... 100% sufferage indeed ... as if we knew the Emperor has no clothes in advance of seeing him naked.

_____________________________

I wish I could buy back ...
the woman you stole.

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RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/28/2008 3:25:46 PM   
meatcleaver


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Joined: 3/13/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

Not really my point though. We elected these people, and gave them the power to abuse their power. Running from that by attempting to assign individual blame, will solve nothing. Nor will the agenda of so many Tom, Dick and meatcleavers of the world ... 100% sufferage indeed ... as if we knew the Emperor has no clothes in advance of seeing him naked.


I have some sympathy. Both major British political parties were for the war so they made voting against the war pretty pointless, if you call voting for the third party pointless which I do. I guess that is largely why Blair got elected on 25% of the possible vote.  We have a similar fucked up pseudo-democratic system to America so everyone knows the emperor has no clothes before they see him. That leaves registering disapproval by extra-Parliamentary means which could and probably should include molotov cocktails aimed at Parliament.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Profile   Post #: 129
RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/28/2008 3:41:04 PM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Both major British political parties were for the war



Incorrect.

The Conservative Party, true to form, was foaming at the mouth to get involved.

The majority of the Labour Party was against it. 'Problem was/is, the Labour Party inner circle is in control of the grass roots.

'Strange situation - the Americans have the right political framework in place but seem more susceptible to towing the line; whereas we are more cynical but live under an undemocratic system. 'Quite probably, there's cause and effect.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

(in reply to meatcleaver)
Profile   Post #: 130
RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/28/2008 3:51:15 PM   
mnottertail


Posts: 60698
Joined: 11/3/2004
Status: offline 		Well, congress voted based on the lie they were fed.  Many people did not vote for Bush.

Who do you think did the deed that got us into this mess Al Gore?  Tippi Hedron? Kim Il Jung?  Saddam Hussein? Monica Lewinsky?

There were many pointing out the flaws in this whole besmirching and deception, long before it got this far, and as I remember you were all to willing to say it was too early and take a wait and see attitude.   

There were illustrious neo-cons all over this board pointing out how hep they were to the conservative wisdom and why conservative wisdom said that you had to take radical views of this geopolitic and how every one who didn't like thier talking head websites were fools, accusing me of being a leftist and pedantically and with great sophistry explaining to me how the fuck we wouldnt be exactly where we are.

I showed a website or two (mostly government and military) that put the lie to all this claptrap and was pretty much told to go fuck myself, I was a brain-dead liberal.............

So, this ain't the first time you have posted a why cant we all get along sort of post, and after the heineous insults and marring, by many many others here, there aint gonna be no let me suck you off and lets be buddies for alot of the idiotica here (this is not personal to you this part, you were less than profoundly fuckwad and totally clueless and myopic as so many were and are to this day.)

Well, the chickens are home to roost............I am just out here lil ol me telling the truth.

Ron  

_____________________________

Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two? Judges 5:30


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RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/28/2008 3:56:42 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Both major British political parties were for the war



Incorrect.

The Conservative Party, true to form, was foaming at the mouth to get involved.

The majority of the Labour Party was against it. 'Problem was/is, the Labour Party inner circle is in control of the grass roots.

'Strange situation - the Americans have the right political framework in place but seem more susceptible to towing the line; whereas we are more cynical but live under an undemocratic system. 'Quite probably, there's cause and effect.


The Parliamentary vote for the Iraq war was,  For 412 Against 149.

139 Labour rebels voted against the government. Labour had 413 Members of Parliament, take away the 139 rebels and that still makes the majority of the Labour Party for the war. Labour members voted 274 for the war, 139 against.

I think I was correct in saying both major parties were for the war. The rebels meakly accepted the vote. This was a vote which needed people to stand up and be counted, the rebels rolled over. They all should have resigned the whip, it was that important.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 3/28/2008 4:14:51 PM >

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/28/2008 4:25:10 PM   
farglebargle


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From: Albany, NY
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: farglebargle


quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Noah in itself, your point about Iraq and what it will or wont be able to do is valid. I really think one should consider the influence Iran will have though. They are backing the Shia already and will continue to do so.


Explain slowly why ANY AMERICAN should give a shit.

Looking at a Globe, IT AIN'T OUR FUCKING PROBLEM.

So, aside from making some people wealthy, and fulfilling a Crazy Fundamentalist Religious Fantasy what dog do we have in this fight?




Its a simple explaination FB. American foreign policy is deeply tied into Isreal and Saudi Arabia.



Bush, Cheney and the rest of the criminals at large are above the law, and will do whatever they want with the lives of the kids serving this nation and the money from the treasury. If they choose to loot the treasury and pointlessly kill the kids serving, then so be it.

Especially given the fact that they've removed the oversight ability of the DOJ, so there's no way to actually prosecute them for their criminal acts.



_____________________________

It's not every generation that gets to watch a civilization fall. Looks like we're in for a hell of a show.

ברוך אתה, אדוני אלוקינו, ריבון העולמים, מי יוצר צמחים ריחניים

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RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/28/2008 4:38:47 PM   
seeksfemslave


Posts: 4011
Joined: 6/16/2006
Status: offline 		Politesub gave the correct answer and was totally ignored.
FAO of those out there that think that if democracy really worked "things" would be better.
You are quite wrong. Naively, idealistically wrong.

The average member of the public cannot countenance dissent to the slightest degree.
We just muddle along killing as we go .
What do the French say?
The more things change the more they remain the same.

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Profile   Post #: 134
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