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RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/27/2008 12:49:34 PM   
giveeverything


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

America's support of terrorism is not presumed, it is a fact but no doubt American patriots would say America was supporting freedom fighters.

It is an assertion. It is nothing more than that. Proclamations from the far side of the Atlantic do not alter that reality.


I agree with MeatClever.  I think celticlord that you like to split hairs.  We have supported, heavily supported, people that we turn around and later call terriorists.  So those labels are by our own governements assertions.  And I say that from this side of the Atlantic (not that that has any meaning).

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RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/27/2008 12:50:55 PM   
giveeverything


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

I remember an episode of "That 70s Show" where Kelso has his hand stuck in a vase because he's holding onto something inside the vase. All he has to do is let go of the object, his hand changing its physical shape, and his hand will come free. Then he could retrieve the object inside the vase by another means. But he won't let go of the object because he's just too stupid to think that far ahead.

Remind anyone of anything in particular?


The 2008 Democratic nomination process.


I didn't get it.

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RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/27/2008 12:50:55 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Al qaeda organizing 9/11 is an assertion too.

Made by Al Qaeda. Your point?

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RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/27/2008 12:57:05 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: giveeverything
I agree with MeatClever. I think celticlord that you like to split hairs. We have supported, heavily supported, people that we turn around and later call terriorists. So those labels are by our own governements assertions. And I say that from this side of the Atlantic (not that that has any meaning).

You also are mistaken. I split no hairs. I am not the one justifying terrorism by any nation by pointing to presumed sins on the part of the US. I am not the one putting forth morally relative arguments that excuse one country's sin by pointing to another country's sin.

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RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/27/2008 12:57:34 PM   
SugarMyChurro


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
The 2008 Democratic nomination process.


The quality of your comments has slipped considerably over the years.



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RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/27/2008 1:01:16 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

America's support of terrorism is not presumed, it is a fact but no doubt American patriots would say America was supporting freedom fighters.

It is an assertion. It is nothing more than that. Proclamations from the far side of the Atlantic do not alter that reality.


Well its an assertion that the International Court Of Justice considered to be true. This was in the case of the CIA assisting the Contra`s in the early 80s.

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RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/27/2008 1:01:29 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
Al qaeda organizing 9/11 is an assertion too.

Made by Al Qaeda. Your point?


When your point is exposed as vacuous, you like to muddy the waters by being pedantic.

America supports terrorism, being an American you might deny it and insist America supports freedom fighters fighting for the rule of law and civilised values. Well, you won't be the first person to be deluded into thinking their country couldn't possibly be capable of being criminal.

As Oscar Wilde noted, "Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious.'

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RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/27/2008 1:15:37 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver
As Oscar Wilde noted, "Patriotism is the virtue of the vicious.'

And beating the monotonic drum of "America is always wrong" is a virtue of the vapid.

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RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/27/2008 1:18:25 PM   
giveeverything


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

When your point is exposed as vacuous, you like to muddy the waters by being pedantic.



OMG... you've hit the nail on the head.  I've been trying to name it.. and you did.  Well done Meatman! 

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RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/27/2008 1:19:24 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: giveeverything

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

When your point is exposed as vacuous, you like to muddy the waters by being pedantic.



OMG... you've hit the nail on the head. I've been trying to name it.. and you did. Well done Meatman!

*snort*

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RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/27/2008 1:51:47 PM   
DomKen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Firstly re the IRA funding. Libya was a major source, then Noraid, then organised crime and collections in Ireland and the UK.

I wonder how many knew Noraid is a US organization
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1563119.stm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noraid

Unless you have audit trails on the budget of the IRA I don't see how you can make the claim that one is the major source.

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RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/27/2008 1:53:12 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen
Unless you have audit trails on the budget of the IRA I don't see how you can make the claim that one is the major source.

Isn't that exactly the claim you are making?

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RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/27/2008 1:57:41 PM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline 		Am I following this correctly?

0. Iraq is a fractious place prone to eruptions of violence. Iraq was formally under the thumb of Saddam Hussein (himself formally under the thumb of U.S. puppet-masters). But Saddam kept the uneasy peace and the oil flowed.
1. The U.S. should not have invaded Iraq. But we did and now Saddam is gone.
2. Having invaded, we can't leave any time soon because it will lead to civil war. All of this was a foreseeable result given the place and the removal of the man maintaining the uneasy peace there. The oil does not flow as it used to and some even goes *missing.*

Sounds to me like we should set up another puppet and get the fuck out but most people are too stupid to see that obvious and completely workable strategy. There was no point to the invasion unless what you really wanted to do was to transfer wealth from the lower and middle class and give to certain elite government friends like Halliburton, KBR, Blackwater, etc. That's how and why taxpayer monies pay for war.

The only reason to stay is the same reason as above (i.e. Reverse Robin Hood - taking from the poor and giving to the rich). Or is that obvious fact actually in dispute?

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RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/27/2008 2:07:39 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

Am I following this correctly?

0. Iraq is a fractious place prone to eruptions of violence. Iraq was formally under the thumb of Saddam Hussein (himself formally under the thumb of U.S. puppet-masters). But Saddam kept the uneasy peace and the oil flowed.
1. The U.S. should not have invaded Iraq. But we did and now Saddam is gone.
2. Having invaded, we can't leave any time soon because it will lead to civil war. All of this was a foreseeable result given the place and the removal of the man maintaining the uneasy peace there. The oil does not flow as it used to and some even goes *missing.*

Sounds to me like we should set up another puppet and get the fuck out

Some would argue (perhaps persuasively) that setting up a puppet regime is the actual current course in Iraq.

Puppets have to be supported--cut the strings and they fall (which argues in favor of the current regime in Baghdad being a US puppet).

That being said, I do agree that the only criteria for US withdrawal should be a strong stable regime in Baghdad. Virtues such as democratic and friendly to the US are luxuries at this point.

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RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/27/2008 2:18:35 PM   
cyberdude611


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Status: offline 		That would have been a great idea. To throw out Saddam and install a dictator that would be more willing to play ball with us. That is what we used to do for most the 20th century....and guess what....it worked more times than not.

The problem today is the idealists. We needed to claim the reason we invaded was to give the Iraqis freedom and democracy. We needed to win "the hearts and minds." Had we kept the government intact and just replace Saddam Hussein and his sons with a different more pro-western dictator, this war would have been over with years ago.

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RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/27/2008 2:19:16 PM   
SugarMyChurro


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
Virtues such as democratic and friendly to the US are luxuries at this point.


That was always crap.

I even remember when the invasion would be over in a fortnight and we'd be greeted as saviors.

Cui bono?

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RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/27/2008 2:24:45 PM   
SugarMyChurro


Posts: 1912
Joined: 4/26/2007
Status: offline 		Can we agree that we can't afford to stay in Iraq and that we need to devise any way we can to get out completely?

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RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/27/2008 2:26:10 PM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

That would have been a great idea. To throw out Saddam and install a dictator that would be more willing to play ball with us. That is what we used to do for most the 20th century....and guess what....it worked more times than not.



Tut tut tut, that is so so imperial.

Weren't you one of those people that rejected the idea that the USA is an imperial nation?

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RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/27/2008 2:30:08 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DomKen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Firstly re the IRA funding. Libya was a major source, then Noraid, then organised crime and collections in Ireland and the UK.

I wonder how many knew Noraid is a US organization
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1563119.stm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noraid

Unless you have audit trails on the budget of the IRA I don't see how you can make the claim that one is the major source.


Here is a link about the Libyan connection. I doubt Noraid matched the amounts Gadaffi pumped in, although i may be wrong. After the bombing of Tripoli where we had supplied logistical support for the US Gadaffi sent enough arms to supply two infantry Battalions.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2006/mar/19/uk.northernireland1

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RE: McCain Asserts Iraq Withdrawal Could Mean Civil War - 3/27/2008 2:38:31 PM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

Can we agree that we can't afford to stay in Iraq and that we need to devise any way we can to get out completely?


Isnt that the truth. Warfare, and more importantly, it`s cost, has been the downfall of many Empires. After the six years war between England and France in the USA. The French supplied a fortune in both arms, and later manpower, to the US. The subsequent deficit of funds in Paris made it possible for the French revoloution and all that followed. After WW2 Britain was in a similar postition owing fortunes to America in war bonds, only fully paid off some 60 years later. This was partly the cause of the end of the Empire.

< Message edited by Politesub53 -- 3/27/2008 2:39:28 PM >

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