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RE: those damn illegals - 3/28/2008 3:08:46 PM   
Smith117


Posts: 1447
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quote:

ORIGINAL: favesclava

just dont judge all spanish speaking brownskins as illegals. ive met hundreds of illegal white europeans. but funny , these are never mentioned in this type of thread.


You wanna know why that is? Because the hispanics are the biggest voice speaking about about the evils being done to illegal aliens.

Look at that phrase: illegal alien. Illegal - criminal, not law-abiding. Alien - not from here, originating from elsewhere.

Where in that phrase does it mention ANYTHING about skin color or country of origin?

I'll save you the time - it doesn't. Most bills that law makers are trying to pass.....actually all, specify measures about stopping illegal immigration. They say nothing about stemming a 'brown tide.' However, invariably, the hispanics will cry out about racism when they forget they are not the only ones here illegally.

There was a town here debating a measure preventing landlords from renting to illegals. Of course there was a protest. Funny thing though....I don't recall seeing any irish, italian, or other nationality in that crowd, only hispanics. And why?

I'll answer that with an old saying:
"The guilty ones speak first."

(in reply to favesclava)
Profile   Post #: 161
RE: those damn illegals - 3/28/2008 3:13:41 PM   
Smith117


Posts: 1447
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quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

So, who else is getting nasty-mails over this thread?


Not me. I usually get "interested" e-mails and offers to chat. Though that's usually when I get out my mysogynistic soapbox in other types of threads.

(in reply to CalifChick)
Profile   Post #: 162
RE: those damn illegals - 3/28/2008 3:16:21 PM   
Smith117


Posts: 1447
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Since the OP didnt say who called the police, you are assuming this woman was the violent one....Yep that makes your argument look better. Neat debating technique.


Well, being that they promptly arrested her for being illegal, and she knew she was not legal, I highly doubt she's the one who called them.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 163
RE: those damn illegals - 3/28/2008 3:28:48 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith117

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

Since the OP didnt say who called the police, you are assuming this woman was the violent one....Yep that makes your argument look better. Neat debating technique.


Well, being that they promptly arrested her for being illegal, and she knew she was not legal, I highly doubt she's the one who called them.



You are correct, she didnt call them, a neighbour did who heard the argument going on.

(in reply to Smith117)
Profile   Post #: 164
RE: those damn illegals - 3/28/2008 3:32:12 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Wow... just wow... because she had two lovers, her children deserve to go into foster care, as if she were a violent criminal... Is there no end to your humanity  ?

Unfuckingbelievable.


Just another note about this. 

She was caught when the POLICE were called because of an ARGUEMENT with her neighbor. 

She might very well be violent. 


Since the OP didnt say who called the police, you are assuming this woman was the violent one....Yep that makes your argument look better. Neat debating technique.


The poster said "as if" and I pointed out the circumstances, and said, "might be." 

I am not assuming anything.  I was not there. 

Of course, why did the police run a check on her, if she was completely innocent in the incident? 

You are assuming absolutes where I have suggested possibilities. 


Who is assuming absolutes ? I said you made an assumption, you used the word maybe and have repeated it here. To me thats an assumption, not an absolute, which was my point.

(in reply to Aylee)
Profile   Post #: 165
RE: those damn illegals - 3/28/2008 3:41:37 PM   
Smith117


Posts: 1447
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

You are correct, she didnt call them, a neighbour did who heard the argument going on.


Exactly. That means she did not know who the aggressor was.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 166
RE: those damn illegals - 3/28/2008 3:47:46 PM   
Politesub53


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Joined: 5/7/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith117

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

You are correct, she didnt call them, a neighbour did who heard the argument going on.


Exactly. That means she did not know who the aggressor was.



I dont follow your logic. My post was about assuming that it was the Mexican lady maybe violent. I was pointing out no one knew, so it seems you agree with me doesnt it.

Edited for spelling

< Message edited by Politesub53 -- 3/28/2008 3:48:22 PM >

(in reply to Smith117)
Profile   Post #: 167
RE: those damn illegals - 3/28/2008 4:01:07 PM   
Smith117


Posts: 1447
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smith117

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

You are correct, she didnt call them, a neighbour did who heard the argument going on.


Exactly. That means she did not know who the aggressor was.



I dont follow your logic. My post was about assuming that it was the Mexican lady maybe violent. I was pointing out no one knew, so it seems you agree with me doesnt it.

Edited for spelling


Actually I was helping out with a justifiable reason for the other poster's assumption.

(in reply to Politesub53)
Profile   Post #: 168
RE: those damn illegals - 3/28/2008 4:08:49 PM   
Politesub53


Posts: 14862
Joined: 5/7/2007
Status: offline 		I gathered that, except the assumption wasnt reasonable, in my opinion, since it was impossible to say, one way or the other.

(in reply to Smith117)
Profile   Post #: 169
RE: those damn illegals - 3/28/2008 4:15:56 PM   
CalifChick


Posts: 10717
Joined: 10/28/2007
From: California
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Maya2001

I would think the topic has not come up because the US has the right to Protect her citizens and in this case all 8 children 

.... so there is no way in Hell will the US allow her to take those children   because they are US citizens to allow them to go there would mean extreme hardship and suffering  so it becomes their duty to protect them


Ummm, no.  Which is why I asked if she had been declared an unfit parent. In order to take her children away, she would have to be declared unfit, not just "it's obvious to us you probably cannot support these children so we're taking them away."  It doesn't work that way. The government cannot and does not say, "up yours, lady, we're taking your children because we need to protect them from YOU, even though you have done nothing." She could be homeless and feeding her children at a soup kitchen every day and she could still keep them.

Cali


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(in reply to Maya2001)
Profile   Post #: 170
RE: those damn illegals - 3/28/2008 4:34:03 PM   
kittinSol


Posts: 16926
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Maya2001

In my eyes what the US government is doing by deporting her   is immensely cruel and inhumane, I can imagine the thousand of dollars that are being spent in the court case, support workers and providing foster families while the battle is going on,   Instead that money and time could have been better used by providing an education to allow her to have a career that could provide a sustainable income to support her and her children  in Mexico even if it meant helping her find a job and setting her up for a few months it would probably end up costing the US taxpayers  far less than  they are spending now in trying to deport by seperating the family and the long term care most of the kids will need   for years to come because of the trauma that has been caused to them and I doubt  highly the effects of this will create highly productive happy well educated taxpayers out of most  those children... I am sure left alone to continue life as she has been it would end up costing the taxpayers far less in the long haul



Great post

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Profile   Post #: 171
RE: those damn illegals - 3/28/2008 4:37:47 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: domahpet

ALL of them, not just the Mexicans, right popeye?


Popeye and i frequently disagree, but he really would deport the Irish first. His position has always seemed honest to me.

philosophy:
He suggests that we break peoples legs,he suggests we burn down peoples houses,he suggests we shoot burglars and then put a knife in their hands out of one side of his mouth and out of the other side he spouts off about law and order when it comes to illegal aliens.  Do you find that sort of position to be honest?
thompson





(in reply to philosophy)
Profile   Post #: 172
RE: those damn illegals - 3/28/2008 4:41:12 PM   
thompsonx


Posts: 23322
Joined: 10/1/2006
Status: offline 		Smith:
Would you please tell me how you would prove that you are a U.S. citizen?
thompson

(in reply to Smith117)
Profile   Post #: 173
RE: those damn illegals - 3/28/2008 5:39:48 PM   
Real_Trouble


Posts: 471
Joined: 2/25/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CalifChick

So, who else is getting nasty-mails over this thread? I went back and checked my posts on this one; I never said I agreed or disagreed with what was happening to the woman.

I presented the facts on what happens when parents are deported, whether they can take their children with them, etc., when people were getting up in arms about her not being able to take her children.  And I agreed with Smith because I feel it's ridiculous to go back a couple hundred years and pull out the "you're not a native american, so go home" argument. 

Sheesh.

Cali



So far, nobody has been stupid enough to send me a nasty email over this thread, which is probably wise.

Secondly, you had some good points about the law and the situation surrounding this case; anyone who would object to objective fact is failing pretty badly at argumentation to begin with...

Edit:

I also stand by my initial commentary, which is that by the letter of the law, she needs to be deported.  Now, I'm not going to advocate that our current laws are ideal, uniformly enforced, or effective, but that is an argument to change our laws in my eyes, not to make exceptions in current cases to work around them.  Further to a point above, I'm also for all illegal aliens being deported; their nationality is only an issue insofar as it is not the US.  Beyond that, any other extraneous variable like language or skin color is a non-issue. 

I advocate uniform, fair, unbiased treatment as proscribed by law until we change the laws.  Likewise, I agree with CalifChick that it seems quite odd this woman would not have the ability to take her children with her.  Is she choosing not to do so?  Was she declared an unfit parent?  There are avenues to bring them to Mexico, but not for her to stay with them in the US, which seems to be what the push is for here.


< Message edited by Real_Trouble -- 3/28/2008 5:45:43 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 174
RE: those damn illegals - 3/28/2008 6:14:50 PM   
OrionTheWolf


Posts: 7803
Joined: 10/11/2006
Status: offline 		Not thirst for blood, but rule of law. There are several ways to reunite them. The woman also has many years to seek pro bono assistance in becoming legal. There are some now that would handle her case pro bono. This is a good example of why the immigration laws need to be changed and the border secured.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
As far as I'm concerned they're not U.S. Citizens.

By current standards of citizenship, they are.


Thankfully, popeye's standards don't apply to a lot of people currently on these boards... And they are US citizens.

It's a shame to hear that it makes sense to separate this mother from her children... and for what? To satiate a few self-satisfied citizens' thirst for blood.

I wish people would get a fucking clue instead of talking out of their arses.


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(in reply to kittinSol)
Profile   Post #: 175
RE: those damn illegals - 3/28/2008 6:49:53 PM   
Maya2001


Posts: 1656
Joined: 8/22/2007
From: Woodstock ONT,CANADA
Status: offline 		I find this case pretty sick  looking at it thru eyes of a   parent/grandparent standpoint

so started online digging

May want to approach from international law standpoint on the grounds of human right violations

The US changed it's  laws in regards to deportation back in 1996 in regards to those with criminal convictions in deporting which then violated international human rights, but she is not being deported based on a criminal conviction so possibly can fight it as a human rights issue under international law, though may have to find a lawyer to talk to who specializes in internation law or get intouch with international human rights groups  .... she got into a argument  ...nothing mentioned about any criminal conviction because of ...so why the hell are they breaking international  law  which allows for families to remain united ????

quote:

[JURIST] The US policy of deporting legal immigrants convicted of crimes has separated an estimated 1.6 million children and adults [press release] and resulted in the permanent exile of permanent residents for even non-violent misdemeanor offenses, according to a report [PDF text] released Tuesday by Human Rights Watch (HRW) [official website]. HRW US Program senior research Alison Parker, the author of the report, called the laws "cruel in their rigidity" and "senseless."

According to the report:
Refugees have also been sent to places where they fear persecution, even though the crimes they have committed are not sufficiently serious to warrant stripping them of refugee protection.

Not only have deportation laws become more punitive - increasing the types of crimes that can permanently sever an immigrant's ties to the United States - but there are fewer ways for immigrants to appeal for leniency. Hearings that used to happen in which a judge would consider immigrants' ties to the United States, most especially their family relationships, were stopped in 1996 for those convicted of a long list of crimes. Therefore, family relationships or other ties to the United States receive no consideration and cannot influence a judge's deportation decision.
HRW says that while "deportation is a necessary part of every country's enforcement of its immigration laws," the exercise of deportation powers should be "governed by fair laws tailored to protect legitimate national interests." The report urged modifying immigration laws to take into account an immigrant's family ties, military service, connections to the United States, and the best interest of his or her children. AFP has more.
  http://jurist.law.pitt.edu/paperchase/2007/07/us-deportation-of-immigrants-convicted.php



quote:

the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states that “[t]he family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the State.”131  The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights states in Article 17(1) that no one shall be “subjected to arbitrary or unlawful interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence.”  Article 23 states that “[t]he family is the natural and fundamental group unit of society and is entitled to protection by society and the state,” and that all men and women have the right “to marry and to found a family.” The right to found a family includes the right “to live together.”132


quote:

Children’s Rights Beyond family unity in general, the rights of children to be raised by their parents is one of the strongest human rights counseling against the separation of families through deportation. Article 24 of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, to which the United States is a party, entitles children “to such measures of protection as are required by [their] status as a minor, on the part of the family, society and the state.”


try the contacts in this site
http://hrw.org/reports/2007/us0707/


additional organizations to contact ...who knows maybe  help her with legal funding to fight to stay

http://www.humanrightsfirst.org/issues.htm

http://www.amnesty.org/en/human-rights

http://www.womenscommission.org/about/contact.php

Hell even  Try for sanctuary as a last resort
http://www.newsanctuarymovement.org/

http://www.christianpost.com/article/20070509/27319_Churches_Launch_Immigrant_Sanctuary_Movement.htm

http://www.pbs.org/wnet/religionandethics/week1042/feature.html

type in immigrant sanctuary movement for more links






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Profile   Post #: 176
RE: those damn illegals - 3/28/2008 6:57:07 PM   
Maya2001


Posts: 1656
Joined: 8/22/2007
From: Woodstock ONT,CANADA
Status: offline
quote:

I also stand by my initial commentary, which is that by the letter of the law, she needs to be deported. Now, I'm not going to advocate that our current laws are ideal, uniformly enforced, or effective, but that is an argument to change our laws in my eyes, not to make exceptions in current cases to work around them. Further to a point above, I'm also for all illegal aliens being deported; their nationality is only an issue insofar as it is not the US. Beyond that, any other extraneous variable like language or skin color is a non-issue.

Even if it breaches a higher law such as international law with makes this case a violation of human rights in regards to family unity???



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Lead me not into temptation - I can find the way myself

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Profile   Post #: 177
RE: those damn illegals - 3/28/2008 6:59:26 PM   
pissdoll


Posts: 343
Joined: 5/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Maya2001

she is not being deported based on a criminal conviction



Maya,

you actually bring up a really good point, which is.....

none of us know why she is being deported, and her children placed in foster care.
maybe the OP knows the entire story, but then again, maybe there are facts the OP is not privy to (no disrespect meant to the OP by that statement).

maybe the police were called because simple yelling was going on. maybe they were called because there was a physical confrontation. maybe she has no criminal record. maybe she does have one. maybe her house was spotless. maybe it was filthy.

there are so many facts that we don't have that would contribute to the children being taken away from her.

we can postulate and argue this for weeks, but without all of that information, the point is sort of moot.

edited because it's Friday afternoon and my brain is gone

< Message edited by pissdoll -- 3/28/2008 7:05:50 PM >

(in reply to Maya2001)
Profile   Post #: 178
RE: those damn illegals - 3/28/2008 7:20:21 PM   
Maya2001


Posts: 1656
Joined: 8/22/2007
From: Woodstock ONT,CANADA
Status: offline 		True we do not know all the facts  but according to the  OP her parental skills are not in question as 3 of the foster families who are caring for her children are fighting in her defense to  remain with her children, which speaks volumes about this woman's character  as a mother and how her her children were raised   for them to be fighting her, especially in still day and age where most people would rather turn their backs rather then get involved.






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Lead me not into temptation - I can find the way myself

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Profile   Post #: 179
RE: those damn illegals - 3/28/2008 8:26:31 PM   
Real_Trouble


Posts: 471
Joined: 2/25/2008
Status: offline
quote:

Even if it breaches a higher law such as international law with makes this case a violation of human rights in regards to family unity?


Yes, for several reasons:

1 - As has been stated, there was the option of the children going to Mexico with her which was likely readily available.  I do not necessarily know that she has pursued this, but that's not a US jurisdiction problem.

2 - I find it hard to believe that she has been in this country from the age of 5 without breaking any of our laws, given her current illegal status and background.  This may be as trivial as driving without a license, but the point is that illegal immigrants can rarely play by the rules, because this leads to their discovery and deportation.  So I am guessing that, with enough digging, she could be deported "with cause", if you will.

3 - I do not necessarily believe we should follow international law.  Overall, the implementation has been so poor in the past with regard to most international bodies (just look at the clusterfuck of gridlock and inefficiency which is the UN) that I have roughly zero faith in them, so arguing to me on that basis is a non-starter, to be blunt.  Also, you can see from my posts above that I am inclined to believe separating the children from this particular mother and situation is likely to be to their benefit, not detriment, in the long term, additionally.  There is a long history of human rights initiatives that have spawned all kinds of unintended consequences which were as bad as (if not worse than) the problem they were attempting to solve...

4 - My largest problem with this policy is that if we extend this to one person, we should extend it to everyone, which basically means you have a free path to full residence if you sneak into the country while pregnant or get pregnant after doing so and have the child here.  This is not an incentive I wish to create.  In fact, I wish to discourage it.

In general, the only time I have much sympathy for illegal aliens is when deporting them would be a legitimate human rights concern for that individual specifically - that is to say they probably have legitimate grounds to claim political asylum of some sort, or protection from severe human rights abuses.  Those I am somewhat sympathetic to; I would not advocate deporting someone to Myanmar, for instance, in most cases.


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Send lawyers, guns, and money.

(in reply to Maya2001)
Profile   Post #: 180
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