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RE: those damn illegals - 3/28/2008 9:08:58 PM

philosophy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: thompsonx

quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: domahpet

ALL of them, not just the Mexicans, right popeye?

Popeye and i frequently disagree, but he really would deport the Irish first. His position has always seemed honest to me.

philosophy:
He suggests that we break peoples legs,he suggests we burn down peoples houses,he suggests we shoot burglars and then put a knife in their hands out of one side of his mouth and out of the other side he spouts off about law and order when it comes to illegal aliens. Do you find that sort of position to be honest?
thompson

....ah, but Thompson......you have to take into account Popeye's sig line about a jury of his peers.

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RE: those damn illegals - 3/28/2008 10:24:44 PM

celticlord2112

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Maya2001

quote:

I also stand by my initial commentary, which is that by the letter of the law, she needs to be deported. Now, I'm not going to advocate that our current laws are ideal, uniformly enforced, or effective, but that is an argument to change our laws in my eyes, not to make exceptions in current cases to work around them. Further to a point above, I'm also for all illegal aliens being deported; their nationality is only an issue insofar as it is not the US. Beyond that, any other extraneous variable like language or skin color is a non-issue.

Even if it breaches a higher law such as international law with makes this case a violation of human rights in regards to family unity???

International law is not a "higher law". Strictly speaking, it is not "law" at all, but rather an amalgamation of multinational treaties. There is no body politic promulgating laws and statutes at an international level.

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RE: those damn illegals - 3/28/2008 11:29:50 PM

SeeksOnlyOne

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thanks for the links maya. and thanks for the comments from each of you.

to try to answer a few of the unknown things that have been asked about....

there was no violence in the argument that got the police called. it was a screaming natch, and it happened over the 2 weeks we get off for christmas. margarita was held in the local jail for 24 hours, and from what i understand, had she been able to make bail within that time, no one would have even cheecked on her status of being here. that is a whole nuther kettle of fish to fry about how screwed up we are regarding how we enforce the laws though. the folks at my school found out about this about 36 hours after her arrest, when she finally was able to make contact with our secretary.we rushed to help, but by then the wheels were in motion, and she had been moved to the county jail, in the custody of immigration folks.

the reason she was taken to jail was she would not shut up when the cops got there, and kept screaming at the cops and the other lady involved in the argument. the argument was about something the other ladies husband had done , which i can not mention because it violates tos.

i have told the folks that are working on this about the law cali mentioned, and of several other things mentioned in this thread actually. why they can find no record of it, or the reason they dont apply here i do not know.

i readily admit to being totally emotional about this. i love these folks, and so do many others. but there are others who are working on it that are less emotional. the lady who wrote the letter in the op is our former school nurse and she is also emotional about it. her husband is a battalion commander in the army, and much more calm and logical thinking than she. he keeps her steady as she tries not to fall apart worrying.

the foster parents that are fighting for margarita are very well off and highly educated people also. they have now secured a lawyer who is willing to work pro bono and try to find a way to not have margarita deported.

my point is, while i may look like (or really be) a dumbass with no knowledge of the law on here, there are smarter folks than me that are checking on every possibility available to keep her and her children together, and yes, if possible, that would be together here, in the country they have all lived all their lives, including margarita.

at the beginning of this thread i said take what you want from it, but i felt compelled to share it. i hope, if nothing else, and no matter how you feel about the illegal aliens as a whole, this may make at least one person realize there are faces behind them, families, and innocents, both children and folks that are now adults. not every illegal swam the rio grande to get here as an adult, some are here and really consider this to be their country and it is the only home they have ever known.

again, thanks for all the replies. im really quite amazed that for the most part, this thread has remained civil from all sides being presented.

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RE: those damn illegals - 3/29/2008 4:05:16 AM

MissMorrigan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee
She cannot support her children. They live in extreme poverty.

You make a lot of assumptions. Nowhere in the OP's comments have I read that the mother could not support her children. I HAVE read, however, that she, like many other parents on low incomes, faced difficulties and the community in which she and her children lived helped out. That's a huge jump from being incapable of supporting her children. Close communities tend to do that... There was an old pensioner who lived in my street, he faced daily struggles to get done the things he needed to, he never once asked for help but our community would help him out on a daily basis, for which he was grateful. No one saw it as being charitable. It's a shame that so many people are blighted with the 'the world revolves around me only' mentality. Often it's a sudden change in circumstances that makes us restructure our attitudes - perhaps one day you may need your community. Also, folks that tend to say 'It'll never happen to me' tend to be the ones hit hardest - complacency does that.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AyleeThe children are growing up without a sense of right or wrong (she is here illegally, plus she is hypocritical about her faith).

Hmm... again, many more assumptions. Isn't it fun to critique a person's life from our glass towers? I've worked for most of my adult life in the social care sector and have not found a correlation between poverty stricken parents and amoral offspring.

It seems you are grasping at straws. Firstly it was the woman's poverty, now it's criticising her for having children out of wedlock (if that is indeed what has occurred). America was built on the backs of such people and continues to function b/c of such - an America you are proud to be a citizen of.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aylee She works part of the time (when she is not preggers and delivering), and so her children are left without a parent at those times. Her choice of male role-models is poor. She continued to have children even though it was finacially irresponsible. It has been stated that they had minimal food and space ~ which can be grounds for being charged with neglect (beans and tortilla's ~ not my words or description of their diet, but the OPs ~ do not cover ALL the food groups). How often was rent put before medical or dental? Likely often.

Your lack of understanding of different cultures is profoundly ignorant and throughout your posts all you have done is show how poorly qualified you are to make any assessment on a person's parenting skills.

quote:

ORIGINAL: AyleeStudies have shown that the situations described above lead to an increased cycle of poverty for the children and a greater chance for crime and addictive behaviour.

In fact, several on this thread want to be her enabler in this.

I think what you have read has been more of a case of people advocating a system that allows the woman to continue raising her children.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Yes, the big, bad, mean, horrible, USA, wants to deport her. Because she is not suppose to be here, and until just recently did NOTHING to rectify that. Of course if we are so awful, I cannot figure out why she would want to stay.

The USA also gained by her MANY years of employment. The economy still benefited from her labour.

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RE: those damn illegals - 3/29/2008 4:40:58 AM

Griswold

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quote:

ORIGINAL: philosophy

quote:

ORIGINAL: domahpet

ALL of them, not just the Mexicans, right popeye?

Popeye and i frequently disagree, but he really would deport the Irish first. His position has always seemed honest to me.

Entirely misdirected, fallible, ill informed, all too often irrespective of all known facts....but, honest and consistent.

Agreed.

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RE: those damn illegals - 3/29/2008 5:03:54 AM

orfunboi

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They should allow her to take her children home with her, but I didn't see anything that said she couldn't if she wanted to. It's a shame that she got caught, but that happens. If I do something illegal, I am guessing no one would care how long I had gotten away with it or how many kids I managed to pop out before I got caught. When I got caught, I would have to face the punishment and I don't see how this is any different.

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RE: those damn illegals - 3/29/2008 5:23:03 AM

MissMorrigan

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I honestly think the whole term 'illegal alien' should be recatergorised. I, personally, find it offensive and does a great injustice to many, such as the woman in the OP, who were brought to the US and other countries, as children.

There was a similar case highlighted in the UK a year or so back. A boy from an African country was brought to the UK by his mother and then abandoned. He went to school here, from the age of sixteen he worked his arse off, paid his taxes, became a businessman and business owner, employed numerous workers (all legally) and was also a home owner, yet it was discovered that he originally was an 'illegal alien'. What then? Our government decided to deport him - from the only country he'd ever known and through no fault of his own was then considered an 'undesirable'. Bureaucratic redtape at its most inept.

These cases are vastly different from those that are deliberately trying to buck the system.

quote:

ORIGINAL: orfunboi
They should allow her to take her children home with her, but I didn't see anything that said she couldn't if she wanted to. It's a shame that she got caught, but that happens. If I do something illegal, I am guessing no one would care how long I had gotten away with it or how many kids I managed to pop out before I got caught. When I got caught, I would have to face the punishment and I don't see how this is any different.

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RE: those damn illegals - 3/29/2008 5:38:04 AM

camille65

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan

I honestly think the whole term 'illegal alien' should be recatergorised. I, personally, find it offensive and does a great injustice to many, such as the woman in the OP, who were brought to the US and other countries, as children.

There was a similar case highlighted in the UK a year or so back. A boy from an African country was brought to the UK by his mother and then abandoned. He went to school here, from the age of sixteen he worked his arse off, paid his taxes, became a businessman and business owner, employed numerous workers (all legally) and was also a home owner, yet it was discovered that he originally was an 'illegal alien'. What then? Our government decided to deport him - from the only country he'd ever known and through no fault of his own was then considered an 'undesirable'. Bureaucratic redtape at its most inept.

These cases are vastly different from those that are deliberately trying to buck the system.

You don't see someone continuing their illegal status for years as deliberate bucking of the system?I am not just referencing this particular case, but all of those that know they are illegally dwelling in a country and fully aware that they are doing so. I do not understand how that can be considered 'not deliberately bucking the system'.

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RE: those damn illegals - 3/29/2008 5:48:03 AM

SeeksOnlyOne

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camille i see your point....to a point.

but do you really really, thinking with all you have, think that someone who was brought her at the age of 5, a child, thinks of living her life where she was raised as bucking the system?

i think she, and many others like her, are just living their lives, in the place to them that is, in their heart if not in the laws, simply their home.

it just has me rethinking so many things that i considered absolutes in my beliefs before. but in terms of her "crime", i think if the world was fair, at the least every illegal construction worker who who came here as an adult, knowing they were chancing it to cross that border, and the companies that hire them should be taken care of before we take care of this great national threat of a mom and her babies.

we pick and choose what we enforce, and that is part of what has my ass chapped about this entire thing right now.

thank gawd for herbal therapy on a saturday am....the windows are open and the birds are chirping and its gonna be a wonderful day in the neighborhood.

happy weekend all

edited to add i saw where you said not to this particular case, but still wanted to start the thinking on how we enforce laws.

< Message edited by SeeksOnlyOne -- 3/29/2008 5:52:02 AM >

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RE: those damn illegals - 3/29/2008 5:52:36 AM

MissMorrigan

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I know you said you weren't referencing the case I highlighted, so let's play devil's advocate - In the case I highlighted, how have they 'bucked the system'? They had grown up here, had NO reason to believe they were considered an 'illegal alien' given that they were educated here, treated medically here, paid taxes here, owned a business/hired employees, etc... so a consistent history of dealing with the government throughout his life. Yet some bureaucrat decided he was an illegal alien. I beg to differ on that. If a country validates it, it's not illegal.

If a person KNOWS they are illegal and deliberately tries not to rectify that, then I'd agree with you that they are bucking the system - unless they are paying into it by supporting the economy of the country for which they are working.

From what I have read, it's also not clear that the woman in the OP knew she was illegal for most of her life. We are privy to very little information regardign that, I'm sure you'll agree, we don't know the ins/outs of this story and even if we did... people tend to continue 'doing what they do' and before they know it, years have sped by so I cannot criticise the woman for her choices.

quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65
You don't see someone continuing their illegal status for years as deliberate bucking of the system?I am not just referencing this particular case, but all of those that know they are illegally dwelling in a country and fully aware that they are doing so. I do not understand how that can be considered 'not deliberately bucking the system'.

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RE: those damn illegals - 3/29/2008 6:01:16 AM

kittinSol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan

I honestly think the whole term 'illegal alien' should be recatergorised. I, personally, find it offensive and does a great injustice to many, such as the woman in the OP, who were brought to the US and other countries, as children.

I'm a "legal alien" in the US, and I don't particularly like that term either.

The name "alien" has for object to dehumanise a person - I'm not a citizen, I'm an "alien".

It's easier to treat an "alien" shittily than a human being. It's not for nothing that the aim of the term "alien" is to alienate. Terminology isn't innocent, and you pointed this out beautifully.

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RE: those damn illegals - 3/29/2008 6:03:49 AM

cloudboy

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One immigration reform I would like to see is a near-certainty green card for all immigrants married to a US citizen. US citizen spouses should not have to fret over the deportation of their spouse.

If the spouse meets the normal requirements for adjustment of status; criminal background check -- able to support oneself financially in the marriage -- a greencard should be forthcoming.

-------

On the thing that contributes to unlawful presence in the USA is the criminalization of it. To wit: an overstay of 6 months results in a three year bar of reentry into the USA and a 1 year overstay results in a 10 year bar.

Given those penalties and their ties to the community, illegals are ironically bound to staying in the country instead of leaving it.

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RE: those damn illegals - 3/29/2008 6:10:47 AM

camille65

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Yes I do. I honestly do not believe that illegal aliens are unaware of the fact that they are indeed breaking the law. Especially as an adult that is working.I think it is awful that for many years this was not addressed, I think that by not addressing this has led to a tacit understanding that 'if they stay quiet, then it is all okay'. I think that is unfair, to now be enforcing something that previously had been something we all were aware of but did nothing about. That they did just lead their lives while aware that they needed to avoid paperwork and the INS to a degree but now that degree is multiplied heavily. If this case were about someone with no children, someone suddenly caught by the system then it is unlikely we would hear about it nationally or even locally. They would just be quietly detained then deported. Her having 8 dependants makes people sit up and take notice of the huge flaws in our system but the main problem I see is that she IS breaking the law with awareness.From the age 18 onward she had choices. She had the choice to avoid pregnancy, the choice to make the motions to be here legally. Quite honestly I cannot believe she did not know she was living with the status of illegal alien. I do believe that she was comfortable in that status because nothing has been done for the majority unless attention has been called. That is precisely what happened to her, attention was brought and her background was revealed. Because she has 8 children she is able to gain help from medicaid and other places. while I who have no children can get exactly zero help.Our systems are strained, horribly so. I do feel for her children, I do not think our foster care system is good. Actually I think it is awful for children to be shuffled from home to home with no stability. I know an awful lot that grew up that way and most have pretty bad issues even as adults. Foster care is a crappy system and most kids are not happy in it. Seperated from siblings then turned loose without support at the age of majority. If she had just made an attempt to become a legal citizen my feelings concerning her the adult would be very different. All she had to do was just make that attempt instead of living a lie. That is what angers me the most, her having 8 children follows that. Yes things are unfair for an awful lot of people everywhere. Our system failed her in that it enabled her to live under the radar for so very long, it has let too many live that way and now piece by piece they have to pay the price. I think that is grossly unfair.But..... it is also the law. How can we pick and choose who we apply the law to?If we say 'Well, those with families should be able to stay' then do you not think that would encourage more illegal workers to have large families as insurance? Oh, and its freaking unfair that you can herbalize yourself with open windows while I have snow on the ground! I edited this because my personal life isn't germaine to the discussion.

< Message edited by camille65 -- 3/29/2008 6:30:35 AM >

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RE: those damn illegals - 3/29/2008 6:19:18 AM

LaTigresse

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan

I honestly think the whole term 'illegal alien' should be recatergorised. I, personally, find it offensive and does a great injustice to many, such as the woman in the OP, who were brought to the US and other countries, as children.

I'm a "legal alien" in the US, and I don't particularly like that term either.

The name "alien" has for object to dehumanise a person - I'm not a citizen, I'm an "alien".

It's easier to treat an "alien" shittily than a human being. It's not for nothing that the aim of the term "alien" is to alienate. Terminology isn't innocent, and you pointed this out beautifully.

I DETEST the use of the word alien in this context! I have friends that work for the INS and they dislike it also. Many of them have hats and shirts with little alien heads embroidered on them. It is a humorous was of dealing with their distaste.

edited because I screwed up the whole quote thingy the first time......

< Message edited by LaTigresse -- 3/29/2008 6:28:29 AM >

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RE: those damn illegals - 3/29/2008 6:19:43 AM

SeeksOnlyOne

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quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65

Oh, and its freaking unfair that you can herbalize yourself with open windows while I have snow on the ground!

snort.....sometimes it is good to live in georgia, but the pines are swollen and getting ready to begin their yearly ejaculation all over everything and everybody.

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RE: those damn illegals - 3/29/2008 6:20:14 AM

caitlyn

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General ...

I was going to stay off this thread, but waking up with a hangover is the perfect time to address it.

Living in South Texas, I know a lot of illegals from Mexico. I have quite a few friends who's parents are illegal. The picture commonly painted, is quite different from reality. The overwhelming majority are here to work, because they are hungry and need some help. The overwhelming majority has no involvement with crime. The overwhelming majority attempt to learn English just as soon as they can ... it helps them make more money, which is the reason they are here in the first place.

There is a political lobby made up of Hispanic lawyers and college students, intent on pressing the "rights" of "their people." The overwhelming majority are English speaking, American citizens. They are activists screaming about a cause, because it's a cause they can scream about. If it wasn't this cause, it would be saving whales, or gun control, or whatever. The real cause for these people, is earning six-figures for screaming about a cause.

I favor a different solution to the problem of illegals in America. I think we should make them all legal, and take advantage of the low wage workforce we have been lacking since Popeye's Irish came over ... then we would have no illegals to worry about, and could stop whining about everyone else's cheap labor pool. Give us your tired, your hungry, etc ...

On point, considering that there are many millions of people here illegally, and no real effort to do much about it ... I have to feel that there is something left unsaid about this case. There has to be a reason so much effort is being spent on this ... perhaps something the public doesn't know about ... perhaps.

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RE: those damn illegals - 3/29/2008 6:20:32 AM

kittinSol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: cloudboy

One immigration reform I would like to see is a near-certainty green card for all immigrants married to a US citizen. US citizen spouses should not have to fret over the deportation of their spouse.

It takes a few years before the spouse of a US citizen is granted a Green card. It's possible, but the bureaucratic hurdles are numerous - if a couple survives the process, they truly were meant to be with one another.

The whole immigration process is enough to make anybody's eyes water. Not only is it incredibly complicated, the system is full of inconsistencies and illogicisms that make it very difficult for anybody without a legal background to sail through. Plus, the USCIS fuck up on a regular basis: their rate for errors is unbelievably high.

I shiver to think how much money such a flawed system must cost the American taxpayers. This is demagogy at its best.

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RE: those damn illegals - 3/29/2008 6:21:41 AM

camille65

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne

snort.....sometimes it is good to live in georgia, but the pines are swollen and getting ready to begin their yearly ejaculation all over everything and everybody.

Um. Disturbing image of the morning, pine trees ejaculating. Jeez.

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RE: those damn illegals - 3/29/2008 6:23:51 AM

SeeksOnlyOne

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caitlyn theres nothing special about this case, except i know the parties involved and chose to share it.....

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RE: those damn illegals - 3/29/2008 6:26:25 AM

kittinSol

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Caitlyn's suggestion is valid: why not legalise the status of all these paperless people and make them into fully fledged human beings?

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