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RE: PC madness or a valid issue? - 3/29/2008 6:40:05 AM

seeksfemslave

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
I'm your Jeremy Cricket, Seeks. It's my job to jump up at you like a "Jack in a box" every time you say something silly . Shame I can't keep up.

Sounds to me as tho' Jeremy, whoever he is, needs to be on a leash, just like you. he he he

I always let Jiminy Cricket guide my conscience, thats why I am never wrong.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oEPb6eL_azw

Blackbirding: Trickery and force used to exploit blacks in the past.
Race Relations industry condemns; government apologises
Press ganging: Trickery and force use to exploit whites in the past
Race Relations industry says nothing; government keeps quiet.

Anyone see a pattern here ?

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 3/29/2008 7:02:55 AM >

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 61

RE: PC madness or a valid issue? - 3/29/2008 7:59:58 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

I suppose we, the British are our own worst enemy, we use our sense of fair play against ourselves by thinking how our actions may offend others all the time and so stuff ourselves up.Political correctness is a weapon to be used where and when it is suited by those who wish to control.

Political correctness is an American import, imported into Britain mainly because we speak the same language and look towards America rather than towards our European neighbours. Political correctness hasn't made such inroads into most Euroepan countries, that is not to say they don't have their touchy feely types either but they don't tend to have the more rediculous aspects of it.

On Dutch TV a mainstream politician said that if muslims want to live in a muslim country with muslim culture, then Holland is clearly not the country for them. I can't imagine a British politician getting away with that. Actually, since the murder of van Gogh, the Dutch have had enough of being sensitive and its a matter if someone wants to be Dutch then they should be culturally Dutch too.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 3/29/2008 8:16:53 AM >

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Post #: 62

RE: PC madness or a valid issue? - 3/29/2008 12:45:53 PM

SL4V3M4YB3

Posts: 3506
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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
I always let Jiminy Cricket guide my conscience, thats why I am never wrong.

I think Jeremy Cricket played the part of a hedgehog or not.

< Message edited by SL4V3M4YB3 -- 3/29/2008 12:53:48 PM >

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Post #: 63

RE: PC madness or a valid issue? - 3/30/2008 8:02:27 AM

RealityLicks

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Reading through this thread, it occurred to me that just about the most politically correct thing you can do at the moment is attack political correctness. It would be funny if in other parts of this site there wasn't a lot of bemoaning a generation of kids which seems not to accord respect and tolerance to each other or their surroundings. I wonder where they get that idea from?

Watching the guardians of morality visit overwhelming destruction on innocent civilians night after night on the television news is part of it, I suppose. We shouldn't be surprised when images of Abu Ghraib find a parallel in "happy slapping". Respect and tolerance, the building blocks of society, are now fluid terms; they operate in favour of the many and vanish when needed by the few.

The REC would be failing if they hadn't made this ignorant person aware of the stupid gaffe over her stupid gaff (

). I'm pretty certain that they would hate for a figure like Hawkins to be forgotten and would prefer that he instead be put into some sort of context rather than just be celebrated blindly, as though Britain had remained unchanged since his time. You later afficionados of rum, sodomy and the lash should cheer loudest that it has.

Btw, confused ramblings that press-ganging is ignored while slavery is condemned are not arguments against political correctness, just back-dated moral relativism and if the latter claim is to be rejected, why not the former?

If this pub had been named back in another era, few would care but to celebrate Hawkins in 2008 can only be a backward step. Britain's no longer ruled by an absolute monarch and a crowd of "nobles" bent on profit at any cost -- hmmm well, there's no absolute monarch anyway -- and if we don't start to reflect other values, like respect and tolerance, we can't whinge when the new generation fail to exemplify them.

(in reply to SL4V3M4YB3)

Post #: 64

RE: PC madness or a valid issue? - 3/30/2008 8:13:36 AM

colouredin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Yawn. Your comment sounded like you were extrapolating from the story as if it had taken place in the United States. Please tell me it's not a national habit .

*nods* A fair few times I have been told that I am factually inaccurate because I speak from an English pov (eg I was told I was wrong when I spoke about women getting the vote due to the war because in the us they got the vote earlier)

I think pc is stupidness, I mean some things of course are offensive but at the same time we have freedom of speech. In England some schools are not allowed to call the black board the black board (though interestingly the white board is fine) and baa baa black sheep is seen to be racist, its stupidness.

There are lots of things that have shitty connotations, actually this kinda reminds me of an argument that I had with someone recently about the fact that the English are often portrayed as the bad guys, its true we did some shit things in our past but it wasnt me that did them, as far as I know I havent oppressed anyone. But every country has done some shitty things in their past.

We hold churchil up as a fantastic leader (which he was) this isnt mitigated by the fact that he was an alcoholic abusive twat though I am sure if he had hated Jewish/Black/Disabled people instantly our opinion of him would be lowered, however it doesnt detract from the good he did same in this case. Political Correctness in my mind does nothing but fuck things up because we are all overly careful about the minorities which then exadurates the percieved differance.

Yesterday I was talking to a girl who applied to the police, she cant get a job, you wanna know why? shes white british, at this time they are only taking on ethnic minorities,. WTF?!? she could be better in the job but shes being made a victim of positive discrimination. Its stupidness, and that then causes racism because people get bitter.

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(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 65

RE: PC madness or a valid issue? - 3/30/2008 8:25:32 AM

RealityLicks

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quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

Yesterday I was talking to a girl who applied to the police, she cant get a job, you wanna know why? shes white british, at this time they are only taking on ethnic minorities,. WTF?!? she could be better in the job but shes being made a victim of positive discrimination. Its stupidness, and that then causes racism because people get bitter.

Your friend is lying.

(in reply to colouredin)

Post #: 66

RE: PC madness or a valid issue? - 3/30/2008 8:29:47 AM

popeye1250

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From: New Hampshire
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I think it's political correctness madness that a "racial equality "council" even exists there.
Hey, just tell them you're naming the pub after a guy named "Billy" Hawkins or something. Who gives a shit what they think.
You guys really do have a "Ministry of Silly Walks" in England, don't you?

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Post #: 67

RE: PC madness or a valid issue? - 3/30/2008 10:22:02 AM

seeksfemslave

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quote:

Btw, a confused rambling such as press-ganging is ignored while slavery is condemned is not an argument against political correctness

Oh yes it is. Neither slavery nor press ganging are very admirable but to selectively criticise one is...hypocritical PC OK?

Wassup Reality, a little tetchy after spending a hard day on the picket line outside that pub ?

By the way I see the opposition party in Zimbabwe knows it has won the election and that Mugabe is going to steal some votes and most important the BBC agrees, even though not one single result has yet been announced.

I sense a Kenya coming up.
Send another delivery of machetes Hawkins my boy. 10000 should suffice.

< Message edited by seeksfemslave -- 3/30/2008 10:29:17 AM >

(in reply to popeye1250)

Post #: 68

RE: PC madness or a valid issue? - 3/30/2008 10:45:36 AM

ShareMyDream

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin
Yesterday I was talking to a girl who applied to the police, she cant get a job, you wanna know why? shes white british, at this time they are only taking on ethnic minorities,. WTF?!? she could be better in the job but shes being made a victim of positive discrimination. Its stupidness, and that then causes racism because people get bitter.

Your friend is lying.

I doubt they told her that was the reason but she probably made a logical guess. With the police force struggling to get its members more representative of the communities they police I think it is highly likely she was rejected on that basis. Employers have been working with racial targets for years it is nothing new and I'm not saying it is right or wrong. To try to suggest positive discrimination isn't in place by calling her a liar RealityLicks is a bit silly when any employer including the police will admit they have targets.

Positive discrimination and racial quotas are illegal under the Race Relations Act with the employer having to judge all candidates on merits. To suggest though an employer can't get around this to meet targets by finding faults that don't actually exist is a bit naive when you consider the pressure they are under to employ the right candidate.

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Post #: 69

RE: PC madness or a valid issue? - 3/30/2008 11:21:55 AM

RealityLicks

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Joined: 10/23/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShareMyDream

I doubt they told her that was the reason but she probably made a logical guess.

What is "logical" about the guess? Or do you mean it fits the narrow-minded prejudice even the gutter press turns its' back on nowadays? Which force are we talking about and when did the application take place? Are you saying that every single white applicant who fails to get into the police service is a victim of discrimination? Do you know how many minority applicants were rejected by the same force at the same time?

Come back with some hard facts and I might take this seriously.

quote:

Employers have been working with racial targets for years it is nothing new and I'm not saying it is right or wrong. To try to suggest positive discrimination isn't in place by calling her a liar RealityLicks is a bit silly when any employer including the police will admit they have targets.

No, its silly to assume that a public body, which can legally seek immunity from the Act but hasn't, is under such pressure. It's plain stupid to view targets as quotas because there is far more animus against such action than for it. If there existed the political will to do this - which is what you imply - why don't we have the type of affirmative action system they have in the US? It's easily achievable.

We don't. This person flopped and can't accept it. Shit happens.

quote:

... consider the pressure they are under to employ the right candidate.

In London, 40% of applicants to join the MPS annually are from minority backgounds. Yet the service is 8% only minority - because not all make it in. That demonstrates that the proportion of black candidates rejected is far higher than that of whites rejected. Now if they were under such immense "pressure" to meet unofficial quotas, why wouldn't they?

Some unsolicited advice: Don't join the noisy legion of knee-jerk reactionaries. If you really give a shit, go and quietly find out the truth for yourself.

(in reply to ShareMyDream)

Post #: 70

RE: PC madness or a valid issue? - 3/30/2008 11:35:25 AM

RealityLicks

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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave

quote:

Btw, a confused rambling such as press-ganging is ignored while slavery is condemned is not an argument against political correctness

Oh yes it is. Neither slavery nor press ganging are very admirable but to selectively criticise one is...hypocritical PC OK?

Have you been licking the battery terminals on your mobility scooter again? You know you have no head for facts when you do that.

While impressment was pretty nasty, it was only done in time of war to ordinary or able seamen. And they were paid for their service. Nasty true, but only the most fatuous could compare it to slavery.

Off you go and dig up some obscure "facts" about it online to create a ten page argument, I'm off to me local, The Harold Shipman, for a pint.

(in reply to seeksfemslave)

Post #: 71

RE: PC madness or a valid issue? - 3/30/2008 11:42:04 AM

ShareMyDream

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You could be right but as soon as someone starts talking about targets what do you really expect people to believe in their hearts because not everyone thinks rationally? If we accept that positive discrimination is illegal then why the need to mention targets at all?

Agreed more black candidates are rejected so the question then is: is the proportion of black candidates rejected higher because the police force discriminates against them or maybe the education system failed them and they can’t compete on an equal basis? Don’t throw blind figures at me because they are useless without me or you being able to understand the background to each candidate. I’m not saying she was rejected for being white but I wouldn’t be shocked or surprised by it. In the end the fact I’m not shocked or surprised is what makes targets unhealthy for all parties involved, maybe I am an ignorant fool but talk of targets isn’t the way to give me faith in the people that serve me.

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Post #: 72

RE: PC madness or a valid issue? - 3/30/2008 11:42:04 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShareMyDream

Employers have been working with racial targets for years it is nothing new and I'm not saying it is right or wrong. To try to suggest positive discrimination isn't in place by calling her a liar RealityLicks is a bit silly when any employer including the police will admit they have targets.

Not at all.

Of course public sector organisations have inclusion targets. They're far wider reaching than ethnic minorites, by the way; you can add disability, gender, sexual orientation, faith, and a whole host of other areas.

Your understanding of central and local government policy is wide of the mark, however. In actual fact, the policy is one of Positive Action, which aims to highlight opportunities to the aforementioned groups, but once at the interview stage the job is awarded on merit. Any organisation straying from this policy and into the waters of Postive Discrimination will have problems with equality regulations - equality applies to white Britons, too.

It sounds to me like this girl refuses to accept she wasn't the best person for the job, which could speak volumes for why she didn't get the job: attitude.

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Post #: 73

RE: PC madness or a valid issue? - 3/30/2008 11:48:21 AM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShareMyDream

You could be right but as soon as someone starts talking about targets what do you really expect people to believe in their hearts because not everyone thinks rationally? If we accept that positive discrimination is illegal then why the need to mention targets at all?

Your best bet is to ask yourself why the mention of targets has led you to jump to the conclusion that white Briton's aren't getting a fair crack of the whip.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Post #: 74

RE: PC madness or a valid issue? - 3/30/2008 11:56:42 AM

ShareMyDream

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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
Your best bet is to ask yourself why the mention of targets has led you to jump to the conclusion that white Briton's aren't getting a fair crack of the whip.

It’s obvious NorthernGent and you can talk about quotas being different to targets if you like but they are just words to me that suggest the same overall intent. I’ve already said no one is rejected at interview stage for being white the same way as for example a disabled person wouldn’t be rejected for being disabled, it happens though doesn’t it? The doubt is there created by the political rhetoric. All I am really saying here is that me as someone that doesn’t understand the system isn’t going to be won over by talk of preferential targets. I’m not saying it happens, I’m saying my ignorance that I think it happens proves it is bad PR on the whole.

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Post #: 75

RE: PC madness or a valid issue? - 3/30/2008 12:06:23 PM

NorthernGent

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShareMyDream

talk of preferential targets.

These targets are not remotely preferential.

The aim is equal access to opportunity.

_____________________________

I have the courage to be a coward - but not beyond my limits.

Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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Post #: 76

RE: PC madness or a valid issue? - 3/30/2008 12:13:57 PM

meatcleaver

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In the Probation Service I knew of jobs that were going to be given to black people come what may, no matter if there were superior white candidates. There is no doubt that the Probation Service needed more black workers because of the cross section of offenders being dealt with in inner London. What pissed me off was not the fact that jobs were going to be filled by black people which as I said, I agreed were needed. It was the fact that the whites that were making these decisions were sitting pretty and unwilling to give their jobs up for black people but expected others to make a sacrifice for their politics, where I believe they should have been willing to make the sacrifice for their own politics.

_____________________________

There are fascists who consider themselves humanitarians, like cannibals on a health kick, eating only vegetarians.

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Post #: 77

RE: PC madness or a valid issue? - 3/30/2008 12:15:35 PM

ShareMyDream

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Your not really understanding the role I'm playing here as devils advocate.

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Post #: 78

RE: PC madness or a valid issue? - 3/30/2008 12:22:37 PM

RealityLicks

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ShareMyDream

If we accept that positive discrimination is illegal then why the need to mention targets at all?

Because there is a problematic history between the police and minority communities. In most police/public contacts from stop and search to death in custody, black people are massively over-represented to such an extent that the police finally had to admit that the "few bad apples" theory was bullshit and that they had real problems with the type of people, attitude-wise, in their workforce.

Having a police service which at least is aware of cultural evolution and at best is representative of those they serve is accepted best practice. So the targets are intended to reflect the ethnic composition of the catchment area. I am not aware that they have ever been achieved in any organisation adopting such targets. It might be reasonable to argue that it isn't a great priority. I don't find a basis to argue that it is causing police forces to stop hiring white coppers.

quote:

Agreed more black candidates are rejected so the question then is: is the proportion of black candidates rejected higher because the police force discriminates against them or maybe the education system failed them and they can’t compete on an equal basis?

To be frank, I don't know. Could the proven and admitted history of instituitional racism in the police be behind rejection of black candidates? There isn't any investigation into it I'm aware of and so it's unfair to make that assumption.

quote:

...is what makes targets unhealthy for all parties involved, maybe I am an ignorant fool but talk of targets isn’t the way to give me faith in the people that serve me.

In a perfect world, racial tensions would not exist and applicants to the police would come in equal proportions from the whole community. However, they don't and that's partly because minorities don't get a day off thinking about discrimination - it's likely to rear it's head quite unbidden. To overcome their hesitance to apply, the police "target" them by ensuring ads appear in ethnic media and sending recruiters to universities and schools to attract applicants. As NG pointed out, though, there is little else outside simply getting the message out that they can do.

Maybe that's too much for some and not enough for others. But the idea that they are rejecting whites disproportionately is opposed by all the documented evidence -- so someone, somewhere is clearly being a bit liberal with the truth.

(in reply to ShareMyDream)

Post #: 79

RE: PC madness or a valid issue? - 3/30/2008 12:30:05 PM

seeksfemslave

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Dont give in so easily Sharemydream
Positive Racial discrimination for some jobs is NOT illegal in the UK.
Those beautiful dreamers Reality and NG are wrong. !

I applied for one such job, stress councillor for elderly Asian women.
Didn't get beyond returning the application form.
I thought it was because when asked I said that the women are stressed because their husbands wont let them try to integrate or learn English, their daughters wear mini skirts and their sons drink.

Also a council financed blockof flats "somewhere or other by the sea" was originally to be allocated to Asians only.
Not sure what actually happened there though.

See where the figures supporting the financial benefits of mass immigration are now being exposed for the sham they actually are.
The PC brigade are quite capable of lying if needs be.

(in reply to ShareMyDream)

Post #: 80

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