Dominance, and Power (Full Version)

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Stephann -> Dominance, and Power (4/1/2008 9:39:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: lally3

i know that without submission a dominant is powerless, but that isnt what this means or is it.  i dont think im fond of that analogy, it suggests that we have power over our dominants - so what is it.


Rather than derail the conversation started here, I thought I'd take my hijack elsewhere.

I take a strong position that if a dominant is powerless without a submissive, he is powerless with a submissive.

Dominance doesn't stem from anyone or anything but within that person.  Powerful people don't wait around for others to obey; they actively take control of situations that are presented to them.  It is through their charisma, strength of will, and/or good sense that they have the capacity to bring situations to a desired conclusion.  The old saying "behind every strong man, there's a strong woman" doesn't mean the man is weak without her; it means he wouldn't have that strong woman, if he wasn't already a strong man.  If it hadn't been her, it'd have been someone else.

Good, dominant people constantly draw others to them.  It is not the submission of others that empowers a dominant; it is the dominant who empowers themselves.

Submissives have the same capacity to empower themselves as well; one needn't be dominant, to have power.  The point of this brief essay was to address dominance, and not to disparage the personal power every person is capable of possessing and wielding. 

Stephan



DesFIP -> RE: Dominance, and Power (4/1/2008 9:43:52 AM)

That's true Stephan but I don't think that's what was implied in such a comment. It refers to the fact that he can't be in a D/s relationship without a sub in there with him. Strong or not, if he's talking to thin air when he wants a cup of coffee, it still isn't going to get made unless he goes and gets it.



Stephann -> RE: Dominance, and Power (4/1/2008 9:50:56 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

That's true Stephan but I don't think that's what was implied in such a comment. It refers to the fact that he can't be in a D/s relationship without a sub in there with him. Strong or not, if he's talking to thin air when he wants a cup of coffee, it still isn't going to get made unless he goes and gets it.


If he's talking to thin air when he wants coffee, he probably needs a shrink more than he needs a submissive [;)]

More to the point, if he isn't capable of caring adequately for himself (i.e. can't figure out how to make his own coffee) I personally see that as a lack of his own personal power.

Dominant people attract submissive people.  For a submissive to walk the "you only have power because I give it" line, implies that she isn't really being dominated.  For a dominant to say "I'm powerless without my submissive" might lovely and romantic to lots of people, but it rubs me as being co-dependent and needy.  Your milage may vary, of course.

Stephan



Mercnbeth -> RE: Dominance, and Power (4/1/2008 10:00:59 AM)

Stephann,
 
not to speak for lally3, but perhaps she was referring to someone who does not have a Dominant personality, but someone who is sexually stimulated by dominance over another individual or individuals.  or perhaps they don't get any sexual stimulation from dominance over another, perhaps they just prefer to be the one calling the shots in the relationship, so they seek out a partner or partners who prefer to submit in a relationship setting only.
 
Master asked this slave in our first week of contact---if not the first e-mail---"are you submissive, or do you get off thinking about being submissive?"  for this slave, the answer was "both".  she is an all-in submissive.  it is her knee-jerk reaction to the world around her, it is a deep sexual fetish as well as this slave's preferred relationship status.
 
this slave is of the opinion that there are indeed different motivations for submission.  personality, sexual orientation and preferred relationship being three this slave has seen most.  a LOT of the confusion that arises does so because folks expect ALL submissives or ALL dominants to be coming from the same place with it that they personally do, which hasn't been this slave's personal experience at all.



Angelsmile -> RE: Dominance, and Power (4/1/2008 10:01:33 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

quote:

ORIGINAL: lally3

i know that without submission a dominant is powerless, but that isnt what this means or is it.  i dont think im fond of that analogy, it suggests that we have power over our dominants - so what is it.


Rather than derail the conversation started here, I thought I'd take my hijack elsewhere.

I take a strong position that if a dominant is powerless without a submissive, he is powerless with a submissive.

Dominance doesn't stem from anyone or anything but within that person.  Powerful people don't wait around for others to obey; they actively take control of situations that are presented to them.  It is through their charisma, strength of will, and/or good sense that they have the capacity to bring situations to a desired conclusion.  The old saying "behind every strong man, there's a strong woman" doesn't mean the man is weak without her; it means he wouldn't have that strong woman, if he wasn't already a strong man.  If it hadn't been her, it'd have been someone else.

Good, dominant people constantly draw others to them.  It is not the submission of others that empowers a dominant; it is the dominant who empowers themselves.

Submissives have the same capacity to empower themselves as well; one needn't be dominant, to have power.  The point of this brief essay was to address dominance, and not to disparage the personal power every person is capable of possessing and wielding. 

Stephan


 
Totally agrees with You. I can confirm that. The dominant has no need at all of any submissive to take influence on whatever seems important to Him/Her on His/Her path in His/Her life or the one of others. That power comes from His/Her deep inner self and inner strength, from His/Her values, convictions and attitude towards things and His/Her knowledge in how to change them in the way He/She wants them to be. It is due to His/Her strong will, firm belief and persistance whilst carrying out appropriate actions, His/Her high energy level, His/Her sharp perception, His/Her way to communicate with others and way to act upon things, the proactive approach and His/Her charisma that He/She achieves most of His/Her goals and objectives. [:)] Thats what makes them so admirable.



metalmiss -> RE: Dominance, and Power (4/1/2008 10:03:39 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

That's true Stephan but I don't think that's what was implied in such a comment. It refers to the fact that he can't be in a D/s relationship without a sub in there with him. Strong or not, if he's talking to thin air when he wants a cup of coffee, it still isn't going to get made unless he goes and gets it.


If he's talking to thin air when he wants coffee, he probably needs a shrink more than he needs a submissive [;)]

More to the point, if he isn't capable of caring adequately for himself (i.e. can't figure out how to make his own coffee) I personally see that as a lack of his own personal power.

Dominant people attract submissive people.  For a submissive to walk the "you only have power because I give it" line, implies that she isn't really being dominated.  For a dominant to say "I'm powerless without my submissive" might lovely and romantic to lots of people, but it rubs me as being co-dependent and needy.  Your milage may vary, of course.

Stephan


Just wanted to say that i very much agree with your point.
Saying a Dominant is powerless without a submissive is getting it very wrong in my opinion. Just because a Dominant may not have a submissive at a given point in time does not mean that He isn't "powerless" the power is merely dormant within Him until He finds Himself presented with a suitable candidate for a power exchange.



Angelsmile -> RE: Dominance, and Power (4/1/2008 10:04:41 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

Dominant people attract submissive people.  For a submissive to walk the "you only have power because I give it" line, implies that she isn't really being dominated.  For a dominant to say "I'm powerless without my submissive" might lovely and romantic to lots of people, but it rubs me as being co-dependent and needy. 

Stephan

 
Totally agrees with this one too *smiles*.



DiurnalVampire -> RE: Dominance, and Power (4/1/2008 10:08:32 AM)

My 2 cents.
A dominant, or anyone else, is not powerless outside of a relationship.
I am powerful becasue it is who I am. It is not based around who I am with but it is rather why who I am with is with me.
I cannot be a owner without a submissive to own. Depending on your definition, I mightnot be able to be  aMistress without someone to master... but I am and will always be a dominant regardless of who else is in the picture. And with that dominance and my personality in general comes power.

DV



LadyPact -> RE: Dominance, and Power (4/1/2008 10:25:54 AM)

Agreed.  It may boil down to semantics for some, but I certainly see the difference in the terms.

I am Dominant.  I've always been Dominant.  That includes those times that I haven't had a collared submissive.  Whether or not I'm involved in a current dynamic does not change who I am, even if it does change the activites that I engage in.  My inner power doesn't come from an outside source, such as another person.  It comes from Me.  When a person choses to give Me power as a Dominant, that is additional power, but not the basis of My own.  In fact, I think that is part of what makes Me attractive as a Domme to some subs.  I'm already a strong, confident woman before they came along.  I don't need them to make Me that way.



colouredin -> RE: Dominance, and Power (4/1/2008 10:25:58 AM)

I agree that I think Lallys point was kinda misconstrued here but Im sure that she will be around to say so. Otherwise I agree, you can be a powerful Dominant/submissive/switch/human being and I think for many having the type of power we are talking about, personal power (not running a large company or whatever) is important to be a well rounded individual. Self belief, confidence, a positive self image etc are all things that create this power and all things that most people aspire to have. 



Justme696 -> RE: Dominance, and Power (4/1/2008 10:32:00 AM)

quote:


Good, dominant people constantly draw others to them.  It is not the submission of others that empowers a dominant; it is the dominant who empowers themselves.


Sounds more like a leader then a dominant



TreasureKY -> RE: Dominance, and Power (4/1/2008 10:34:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

I take a strong position that if a dominant is powerless without a submissive, he is powerless with a submissive.


 I agree completely... though I'd say if a dominant is powerless, with or without a submissive, he probably isn't dominant.  [;)]

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

... The old saying "behind every strong man, there's a strong woman" doesn't mean the man is weak without her; it means he wouldn't have that strong woman, if he wasn't already a strong man.  If it hadn't been her, it'd have been someone else.


Here I'm going to disagree.  I don't believe that your assessment of this saying is what is meant in the least.  If I understand correctly, the implication is that for every strong man (I believe the original quotation described him as powerful) there is (or was) a woman who nurtures and supports him... whether that woman is a mother, a partner, or a wife.

I don't know if I completely agree with that "old saying", but nevertheless, I do think my interpretation is the one more commonly agreed upon.

And while it would be nice for those who believe in only male dom/female sub relationships to say that only strong men attract strong women, it would be highly incorrect, as well.  How many times do we see beautiful, strong women married to or involved with some utter wimp?




lally3 -> RE: Dominance, and Power (4/1/2008 10:57:50 AM)

hi,

i know that without submission a dominant is powerless
 
all that i meant from this line was that dominance and submission are a cooperative, without submission, dominance cannot occur.  not that the dominant is powerless in himself, simply that with such a dynamic, where the power of submission isnt offered there is nothing he can do, submission cannot be forced and no good dominant would want to.

i didnt like this analogy - purely because it indirectly and wrongly suggested that submissives could use this power to control their dominant and no good submissive would want to or infact be associated with such a suggestion.
 
is why i then retracted it, but left it there as a spin off from my thought processes.
 
really, i was just fannying around trying to understand the phrase 'power of submission'

 




Stephann -> RE: Dominance, and Power (4/1/2008 11:06:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

I agree that I think Lallys point was kinda misconstrued here but Im sure that she will be around to say so. Otherwise I agree, you can be a powerful Dominant/submissive/switch/human being and I think for many having the type of power we are talking about, personal power (not running a large company or whatever) is important to be a well rounded individual. Self belief, confidence, a positive self image etc are all things that create this power and all things that most people aspire to have. 


Hi folks,

While it's possible that wasn't lally's intent, she echoed a very commonly held saying that has always rubbed me the wrong way.

Treasure, rest assured it isn't my intent to suggest that only dominant people end up with strong partners.  I was illustrating how dominant people often have the capacity to acquire strong partners if that is their wish.  It is the suggestion that one's dominance and strength is derived from the submissive partner that I take issue with.

Justme, I'd make a case that dominance is a very useful quality for a leader to have.

Stephan



ownedgirlie -> RE: Dominance, and Power (4/1/2008 11:18:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

quote:


Good, dominant people constantly draw others to them.  It is not the submission of others that empowers a dominant; it is the dominant who empowers themselves.


Sounds more like a leader then a dominant


It is my opinion that a good dominant is also a leader.

I agree with Stephen's assessment.  He is a strong, powerful, dominant person whether I belong to him as his slave or not.  I am submissive whether I am his slave or not, however, his personality, demeanor, and power drew my submission sharply in his direction. 

After meeting him in person, my cousin told me, "You can't help but be drawn to him...wow."  She is not his submissive, yet she felt his power.  I believe people stand on their own, but when the right people are brought together, they have the potential to inspire and bring out the best in each other.



Mercnbeth -> RE: Dominance, and Power (4/1/2008 11:23:14 AM)

quote:

It is the suggestion that one's dominance and strength is derived from the submissive partner that I take issue with.


if one is devoid of dominant personality, has no interest in being the dominant partner in a relationship, yet still labels themselves dominant because they believe the meaning of it to be: having a sexual fetish/preference to Dominate...wouldn't it follow that THAT particular form of dominance requires a submissive partner to mainfest in reality?
 
taking it a stretch further and embellishing it with words like "power", "gift" and "strength" could be someone's gravy...or, for you, perhaps just an extension on the time the nails drag down the chalkboard.[:)]



Justme696 -> RE: Dominance, and Power (4/1/2008 11:23:53 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

Justme, I'd make a case that dominance is a very useful quality for a leader to have.

Stephan

 
I know what you tried to say. But a dominant can be a leader, but also a dominant can be far from a leader.
Leaders want many people and hardly are satisfied with 1 person. They lead groups (well you can be poly ofcourse)
 
Also a leaders doesn't need to be dominant in the sense of bdsm dominant. There are so many kinds of ways to lead.
 
I think when we dominants try to describe ourselfs we get to cocky about our abilities. We just describe how we want to be seen. It is like asking Ferrari what car is the best.
The only ones to judge about us are the subs and slaves.
The costumer rules the market so to say   lol
 



colouredin -> RE: Dominance, and Power (4/1/2008 11:26:54 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

Leaders want many people and hardly are satisfied with 1 person.


Says who? dont Dominants lead their submissives? doesnt that fundementally make them leaders? surely they lead them in one way or another be that all the virtuous ways of personal improvement or simply leading them in sexual ways, its still being a leader, taking charge of the situation and having someone follow you.

lead·er  [image]http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/premium.gif[/image]  [image]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png[/image][image]http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/speaker.gif[/image]  /ˈli[image]http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png[/image]dər/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[lee-der] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun 1.a person or thing that leads.



DragonLady5 -> RE: Dominance, and Power (4/1/2008 11:43:32 AM)

Here, here. *clapping*
LadyPact: I agree with you 100%. Thanks for saying it so well.
I have found that the stronger/more Dominant a person I am, the more men seem to like me. And most of the women hate me. Asserting myself has had good consequences in my case. And I prefer, in turn, strong men, those that "know" themselves.



MrThorns -> RE: Dominance, and Power (4/1/2008 11:49:03 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

quote:

ORIGINAL: lally3

i know that without submission a dominant is powerless, but that isnt what this means or is it.  i dont think im fond of that analogy, it suggests that we have power over our dominants - so what is it.


Rather than derail the conversation started here, I thought I'd take my hijack elsewhere.

I take a strong position that if a dominant is powerless without a submissive, he is powerless with a submissive.

Dominance doesn't stem from anyone or anything but within that person.  Powerful people don't wait around for others to obey; they actively take control of situations that are presented to them.  It is through their charisma, strength of will, and/or good sense that they have the capacity to bring situations to a desired conclusion.  The old saying "behind every strong man, there's a strong woman" doesn't mean the man is weak without her; it means he wouldn't have that strong woman, if he wasn't already a strong man.  If it hadn't been her, it'd have been someone else.

Good, dominant people constantly draw others to them.  It is not the submission of others that empowers a dominant; it is the dominant who empowers themselves.

Submissives have the same capacity to empower themselves as well; one needn't be dominant, to have power.  The point of this brief essay was to address dominance, and not to disparage the personal power every person is capable of possessing and wielding. 

Stephan


 
I can agree with your position here, although I think it may be for different reasons than what you suggested.  I believe that one of the things that makes Dominants dominant is the ability to influence others by using that power inherent to a dominant individual.  A submissive may give a dominant the authority to exercise control, however the submissive has absolutely nothing to do with granting power.
 
~Thorns



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