RE: A tough nut to crack - advice? (Full Version)

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YourhandMyAss -> RE: A tough nut to crack - advice? (4/4/2008 8:10:15 PM)

Playing with others does not mean you're poly in my opinion, Poly to me means you want others to join you as a third for a relationship on a as long as relationship with them lasts basis..

but I can understand not playing with others and it being a big no no. . That's why I said for me, if it wasn't a rule in our relationship to not play with others:)
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pyrrsefanie

quote:

ORIGINAL: YourhandMyAss

I know that for me, should it not be a hard limit that I do not play with others, if I had a sub and his bad behavior made me put him on restriction, I would simply play with others while he was on restriction.



I think you may have missed the part of my original post where I mentioned that he's also my fiance... playing with others is a BIG no-no in our relationship, not only for me, but for him.  I've been burned by poly before and it's left me with a permanent distaste for it.




Pyrrsefanie -> RE: A tough nut to crack - advice? (4/4/2008 8:18:16 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: YourhandMyAss
Playing with others does not mean you're poly in my opinion, Poly to me means you want others to join you as a third for a relationship on a as long as relationship with them lasts basis..


Then I suppose I look at your suggestion as "cheating."

Sorry if I seem a bit upset about it, but there are certain things that will throw me for a loop and put me in a VERY bad place, mentally... and even thinking about turning to another person for play just because my darling and I are fighting makes me want to vomit and cry all at the same time.



YourhandMyAss -> RE: A tough nut to crack - advice? (4/4/2008 8:20:11 PM)

cancle my statement. I wouldn't want what I suggested done to me if shoes were on other feet, so in retrospect I wouldn't do it either.



YourhandMyAss -> RE: A tough nut to crack - advice? (4/4/2008 8:23:26 PM)

Yeah. Cancle my original statement, cause I know if a Dominant I was involved with decided to play with others cause he was mad at me I'd be sad and sick too.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Pyrrsefanie



even thinking about turning to another person for play just because my darling and I are fighting makes me want to vomit and cry all at the same time.




atursvcMaam -> RE: A tough nut to crack - advice? (4/4/2008 10:34:37 PM)

Dear Pyrrsefanie, i hope that all works out well for You.  i started to respond to this without reading all of it, and had to edit quite a bit.
    i am happy for You that You opened up communications on things that were troubling You.
    Please realize that Your described "stubborn" will help You considerably, and that each perceived argument that You resolve gives an avenue for any subsequent disagreements.
     i wish Y/you good luck.



MaamJay -> RE: A tough nut to crack - advice? (4/5/2008 1:30:29 AM)

To the OP ... You've had some great advice here and I support You for coming here and asking. We all have to learn and why not learn from others with more experience? I didn't perceive You as whining at all. You've also made great strides in the discussion that You had with Your boy, and it was good that You came back and told Us too. Frankly I was surprised to see how young You are, Your posts are very well thought out and I had assumed You were older in a good way (as in more life experience)! So kudos to You for being where You're at so soon.

I have a few things that struck Me:

* I really resonated with what MsHonor said. I was also thinking that some sort of calming ritual either on the way home from med school or once he first gets home could really help defuse the situation. In Australia's lovely weather a mandatory stop at a park for a 10 min walk can do wonders, or if it is wet, just sit there in the car and watch the rain on the trees. Not sure how practical that is where You are, although Florida looks good on TV! Do You have a dog? Another way is that it is his job to take the dog for a short walk as soon as he gets home. One look at those pleading eyes will get him walking out his woes! Or maybe when he gets home he's allowed to go to the bedroom or the bathroom and just sit for 10 mins or so, with the brief being to focus on leaving the work world behind and peacefully enter the home world. Then he comes out, kneels, greets You and asks You to put his collar on etc. If he needs a more tangible way to debrief, when he goes into his quiet space for 10 mins, have him write down the good things that happened that day on 1 note and the bad things on another. When he comes out, you both take a few minutes to review them, celebrate the good, then together light a candle and burn the bad, symbolising their lack of hold over him now he is home. By the way, there's nothing to stop You doing the same thing! Great ways of improving each other's understanding of the outside influences on each other's lives. These are but a few ideas, work out what will work out for the both of you in the lives that you lead ... but I hope You get the drift.

* I'm a switch ... and as I am a Domme currently without a sub (though I'm working on it!), I know that My Jay side is a bit antsy at times, and it can be hard for violet to be the one interacting with Master. W/we worked out some little cues to find out whether it's Jay acting out of turn, or violet's cheekiness coming out ... Master would say "Is that your Top hat I see?" or "I think your capitals are showing pet". They've proved very useful as non-confrontational ways of making me check myself as to what i was doing. Now I noted You said Your boy was dominant with others ... not sure if You meant that he has actually BEEN a dominant ... or whether it's the military dominating side of him coming out ... but a similar little cue might be helpful in Your situation also. Master reserves the "Remember who you're talking to!" in a stern tone for when He is SURE that violet has lost the plot and is acting inappropriately. He also refuses to engage in confrontation, simply sends me away to think on it ... He goes out and attacks the weeds! It doesn't usually take long before i am at least sorry for HOW i said what i said (even if i still think there was sense in what i said) and i apologise. He then apologises for getting mad ... and then W/we sit down and talk it out. My Mum always said that in any argument, there is always something BOTH sides can be sorry about. And Dad always said "If you raise your voice it's because your argument is weak and you've lost". Wise words! I think Your engaging him in a verbal fight is a losing play ... don't fall for it.

* Given that he's ex-military ... and eastern European (and I know what You're getting at, there's a certain inbuilt stubbornness) ... I really think it's paramount that You don't cave in to fear or pressure. And I think he's been seeing that in You, that fear of losing him. I really think he is looking to You to be strong and consistent, secure. That doesn't mean there aren't times when he can see You cry or whatever ... You are human and he should be Your comfort when things upset You ... but in terms of conflict with him, You really need to stand firm at the crisis. In later discussions, You might be willing to concede a point or mutually agree to a shift of position, but don't do it in the heat of battle ... frankly that will scare him deep down. In the military mind, there's a time for sticking to the battle plan and a time to discuss and decide on a change of tactics ... don't mix the two. And while doubtless You would hate to lose him ... hon, You're 20 and a Domme. Frankly, You're on the winning end if it came to finding a new partner ... he only needs to ask all the whingeing male subs on the boards how tough it is LOL! Don't let that fear become Your prison ... and his victory.

I wish You all the best little sister ... You and I share a birthday! I was supposed to be a twin apparently ... maybe You just waited 31 years to come along LOL!
Maam Jay aka violet[A]



Pyrrsefanie -> RE: A tough nut to crack - advice? (4/6/2008 3:35:09 PM)

Aw MaamJay, you're way too sweet!  Thank you so much for your kind words, apparently early-born twin!  [:D]  That life experience has not come easy, to be honest... some experiences I've gone through, I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy, although I suppose in the end it's better to have had them and learn from them rather than to not have them at all and not have to exert that strength and ingenuity to come through them unscathed.

I especially like your father's advice (sounds like quite an intelligent man to come up with that!).  It's true that it seems he only starts yelling out of sheer exasperation, when he realizes that yes, he might actually be wrong... I'm not sure that he knows how to deal with that concept.

The idea of a cool-down time sounds absolutely lovely.  One of my big flaws is impatience -- I know, what an important quality for a Domme to have!  Especially when he doesn't share all of the details of his day with me, I assume that he's had a good, easy day, and that he's not tired.  That's one of the big things I've got him working on, is opening up and expanding his answer further than just "fine" when I ask him how his day was.  It's so endearing to watch him work on this, because I can see that he's truly putting forth the effort and putting much more thought into his communication with me than previously.

Much love and positivity to you, I love your posts on these forums and I'm honored to accept your advice and thoughts on the situation.  Mwah!







DesFIP -> RE: A tough nut to crack - advice? (4/6/2008 6:09:04 PM)

Does he have a routine when he comes home? Some people don't do transitions very well. Would it help if he had to go to the gym and work out his stresses before he came home? Or strip, put on collar and cuffs and kneel in the corner for half an hour (assuming his knees can take it?). Some kind of routine to help him go from dominant attitude at work to submissive attitude at home.

But if he really behaves like an ass to everyone, are you sure you want to marry him? He'll be setting the tone for your offspring and that's not an attitude you want them to emulate.



MistresssAria -> RE: A tough nut to crack - advice? (4/6/2008 7:58:06 PM)

I've always thought that if you want to get points/problems across to someone, it's best to write a letter & leave it where they'll get it when you're not there.  This forces them to read it WITHOUT stopping to argue in the middle over something, and you can peacefully get your point across.  Perhaps write him something like you wrote here (only more caring hehe) and ask that he respond back with a letter, and then afterwards you two will *calmly* have a discussion?



atursvcMaam -> RE: A tough nut to crack - advice? (4/6/2008 8:51:36 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistresssAria

I've always thought that if you want to get points/problems across to someone, it's best to write a letter & leave it where they'll get it when you're not there.  This forces them to read it WITHOUT stopping to argue in the middle over something, and you can peacefully get your point across.  Perhaps write him something like you wrote here (only more caring hehe) and ask that he respond back with a letter, and then afterwards you two will *calmly* have a discussion?


Great idea, and if i might add, in my humble opinion, as an occasional Snarkist (all right, i made up the work) read what You are writing a time or two, and especially when You are calmed down and not too "Vent-y", do not leave too much time to brood over what has been written, and make sure that there is time and opportunity to discuss things.  Then ceremoniously burn the letters.  If the words stick around they tend to come back to haunt You in Your next disagreement.  Just some thoughts.



Pyrrsefanie -> RE: A tough nut to crack - advice? (4/6/2008 9:22:06 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: atursvcMaam

quote:

ORIGINAL: MistresssAria

I've always thought that if you want to get points/problems across to someone, it's best to write a letter & leave it where they'll get it when you're not there.  This forces them to read it WITHOUT stopping to argue in the middle over something, and you can peacefully get your point across.  Perhaps write him something like you wrote here (only more caring hehe) and ask that he respond back with a letter, and then afterwards you two will *calmly* have a discussion?


Great idea, and if i might add, in my humble opinion, as an occasional Snarkist (all right, i made up the work) read what You are writing a time or two, and especially when You are calmed down and not too "Vent-y", do not leave too much time to brood over what has been written, and make sure that there is time and opportunity to discuss things.  Then ceremoniously burn the letters.  If the words stick around they tend to come back to haunt You in Your next disagreement.  Just some thoughts.


As dorky as it might sound, I'm a HUGE fan of the Men Are From Mars, Women Are From Venus book... I've been trying to get the boy to read it, but he's been slacking.  It has a chapter dedicated to writing a "feelings letter" and it's something I'd definitely love to implement!

The trick is getting him to sit down and calmly sort out his thoughts in order to write them.  Again, another thing that we're progressing on.  Sharing his feelings is a brave new world for him, but I definitely agree that doing it in written form is a lot less intimidating.  Also about words sticking around to haunt you.  It's like a ticking time bomb -- you think you've forgotten them until BAM, they sneak up and hit you again! 

I've also found that when he starts getting defensive, I can calmly say "Darling, you are the only one here raising your voice" and the change in his attitude is almost instant.  Which really, I don't blame him, because it's a lot easier to take a calm, even-tempered person seriously than it is to take someone who's curled up in the fetal position sobbing at face value.  Today we also discovered that part of his problem is that when he does hurt my feelings and realizes he's done so, he gets ashamed with himself and doesn't know how to react, so he acts on his emotions -- which at the time are negative towards himself for hurting me -- and ends up projecting them onto me.

Des, I honestly believe that this is NOT his ingrained personality and is instead just a bad habit that can be remedied.  As far as influencing our children... well, they'll have me for a mother, and I'm kind of an asshole myself.  So I figure either they'll end up being jerks, or they'll end up plastering their folders for school with autopsy photos and discussing reincarnation with their teacher in Catholic school just like their dear old mom.  Either way they're probably screwed.  [:D]



MaamJay -> RE: A tough nut to crack - advice? (4/7/2008 2:32:06 AM)

You're welcome to My advice hon, any time. I am happy to pass on that which I have learned from others wiser or more experienced than I, or from personal trial and error! Glad You liked My father's advice ... yes, he was an intelligent man and I learned a lot from him. And obviously calling him on being the only one shouting works! But I'm thinking that Mum's advice is also relevant to Your situation, especially this part:

Today we also discovered that part of his problem is that when he does hurt my feelings and realizes he's done so, he gets ashamed with himself and doesn't know how to react, so he acts on his emotions -- which at the time are negative towards himself for hurting me -- and ends up projecting them onto me.
 
So part of the problem is that he DOES realise there is something in the argument to be sorry for ... upsetting You ... but then doesn't know how to deal with that. Part of the discussions probably needs to be working out some strategies for that, a way perhaps, of Y/you BOTH saying sorry for Y/your part and releasing those feelings, before the discussion continues. For eg, he might be sorry for having snapped, You might be sorry for asking in the way or tone that You did. When You get upset, do You know what would be a good way to defuse You? You might need to think on that carefully Yourself, so You can best advise him. Personally, if I get upset, I know a truly sincere apology and contrition will do much to defuse Me. However, I need to see it in their eyes that they are genuinely sorry for their part. Someone just saying in a snarky tone "Sorry but ..." is NOT going to do it, in fact it will likely inflame the situation further. Which is why I usually go with time out to think on things as that allows time for contrition to develop and for Me to cool off. Work out what works for You then tell him ... it's only fair!

I remain very impressed with Your ability to analyse and probe and relate cause and effect to be remarkable, all the moreso for Your tender age. I know many double Your age and more who wouldn't be able to "see" the part I highlighted earlier ... and lead someone else into understanding that's how and why they are reacting as they are. Yay sis!!

While I am sure You realise the only person that can change him IS him ... he is young too, and therefore these habits need not be set in stone. Your job is to provide the motivation for change, the tools by which he can accomplish change, and the encouragement and support of change as it occurs. he needs to want to ... and be capable of putting his desires into real action (that's where My ex-hubby failed himself ... in so many facets of life he wanted to do something but could never actually see it through into real physical action. But he was older and more set in his ways and this also permeated many more aspects of his life, therefore a much bigger job to tackle). Your sub needs to understand that change will feel strange ... it won't initially feel like him ... that's where support from You can be vital as it's easy to relapse at that stage. With Your understanding and skill set ... if he has the desire and capacity, I give You a very good chance of helping him overcome these bad habits and learn whole new productive ways of inter-relating with people!

Maam Jay aka violet[A]



psykocloud -> RE: A tough nut to crack - advice? (4/7/2008 9:05:10 AM)


He has a tendency to internalize things, and when I ask him about what he's thinking or feeling, he remains silent or says he doesn't want to talk about it.  To his credit he has gotten a lot better about sharing his feelings with me, but there's still a very long road ahead.  And the mentality during "snappy-time," as I not-so-affectionately refer to it, is one of those things I'm still trying to get to.  I agree that it's a very important thing to discover, though.  I'm all for getting into people's minds and understanding what drives them to do and say what they do.

[/quote]

Pyrrsefanie,

When Sir collared me last November, and signed my contract of slavery to Sir and Ma'Lady, I knew full well I had to be transpararent and NOT keep anything from them. I know what your talking about when your slave tells you that, I was the same way. But not any more, I can't be, it says that in my contract. It just sounds like he doesn't want to be your slave so much as he says he does.



Pyrrsefanie -> RE: A tough nut to crack - advice? (4/7/2008 9:15:19 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: psykocloud
It just sounds like he doesn't want to be your slave so much as he says he does.


No offense meant, but I really don't place much stock in this idea.

He was the one who came to me and asked me to train him... I've asked him point-blank several times if he's having second thoughts, or if he's still happy with a 24/7 relationship, and both times I've been told that everything is fine and that he is happy.  A couple of times when I've asked him after a particularly bad string of behavior he's begged me not to give up on him.

So with all the input here I'm thinking it's probably a nasty case of being a typical 24-year-old boy, and a need for better-set rules and consequences... also a bit of patience on my part with him.



AAkasha -> RE: A tough nut to crack - advice? (4/9/2008 7:05:51 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Pyrrsefanie

Well... older than me.  I'm 20, he's 24.  But in the grand scheme of things, yep, he's a whippersnapper.  Thank you for assuring me that he's going to grow up a little more.  If he doesn't I think I may go lesbian or become a cat lady.

My fear in asking him to keep a journal (I'm a huge fan of such things, myself) is that he'll use his standard excuse of "I've got so much to do, I've already got tons of homework, it's late, et cetera."  I could always ask him to do it later, I suppose, but then I worry he'd lose that thought process that he enters when he's actually feeling those things.  Would it be acceptable, in your mind, to tell him "tough shit, it'll take you ten minutes, write it down anyway?"

Your post made me giggle and gave me a lot of hope for my boy.  And I've learned a couple of things I've never really thought of, like this part:

Men that really pour themselves into submitting are emotionally exhausted afterward, and if  he's in too tired or fragile a mood, it's not worth it to either of us.

Thank you, Akasha!  Although now I'm really freaking jealous of you for getting to date a hockey player.  Some women get all the luck, hmph.  [:D]





Keep us posted on the progress.  Remember there are good days and bad days. I think you are handling things the right way.  Above all else, it's a relationship first and foremost, so compromise and communication will always be most important.

Oh and no need to be jealous about the hockey player I dated.  He's now my husband, but he's not much into hockey lately because he's adopted warm weather sports since moving to California from Canada. He never played professionally, just for fun.    Next year I might "force" him to get back onto a team though.  Watching him play hockey was great foreplay.

Akasha



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