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Goodbye fair Britannia. - 4/2/2008 11:16:40 AM

Aneirin

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http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article3666992.ece

The image of Britannia, maybe had it's origins in Roman Britain, coins minted by the then Hadrian depicted the warrior woman, some say as a tribute to Britains greatest war leader, Boudicca. A woman who under oppression united many of the tribes of Britain and very nearly succeeded in ridding the country of the Roman invader.

Britannia has always been the symbol of britain, but maybe she is under attack. Not long ago a minister criticised the singing of 'Rule Britannia' at the momentous occaision of 'Last night at the Proms' at the Albert hall, in case it upset others who call this country home.

Now She has disappeared from our coinage, is this an exercise in remodelling of our country, what do others think?

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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

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RE: Goodbye fair Britannia. - 4/2/2008 11:18:15 AM

kittinSol

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Cool. Rule Britannia is one of the most embarrassing songs ever. About time it got flushed down the toilet of history.

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RE: Goodbye fair Britannia. - 4/2/2008 11:49:19 AM

RealityLicks

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There's no evidence that Britannia and Boudicca are one and the same. The Romans didn't celebrate vanquished barbarians with coins. And the Romans were a foreign, occupying power - so the Britons were slaves.

Most of the image of Britannia we now know was brought over by the Hanoverian Dutch, when they took over ruling the country (bloody foreigners, eh?) its only been on coins for 300 years.. The Dutch hat was made into a Minerva-style helmet and the Victorians added the Union Jack.

All just iconography to cow the locals into worship and obedience and boy did it work.

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RE: Goodbye fair Britannia. - 4/2/2008 11:53:40 AM

kittinSol

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Same as with Joan of Arc - a whole mythology constructed out of a few meagre historical facts for the amusement and submission of the plebes. "Britons will never be slaves" = it kind of worked... fiercely independent people that we are. Ahem... oh shit! I just saw the star spangled banner fly by

.

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RE: Goodbye fair Britannia. - 4/2/2008 12:09:00 PM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

There's no evidence that Britannia and Boudicca are one and the same. The Romans didn't celebrate vanquished barbarians with coins. And the Romans were a foreign, occupying power - so the Britons were slaves.

Most of the image of Britannia we now know was brought over by the Hanoverian Dutch, when they took over ruling the country (bloody foreigners, eh?) its only been on coins for 300 years.. The Dutch hat was made into a Minerva-style helmet and the Victorians added the Union Jack.

All just iconography to cow the locals into worship and obedience and boy did it work.

Didnt they teach you anything at left wing university..
Look and learn

http://24carat.co.uk/britanniaframe.html

Adds..scroll to Hadrian

< Message edited by Politesub53 -- 4/2/2008 12:12:12 PM >

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Post #: 5

RE: Goodbye fair Britannia. - 4/2/2008 12:14:35 PM

Aneirin

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From: Tamaris
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Britannia is much the same to Britons as is Lady Liberty to the Americans, a national identity. Without an identity, what names a country.

Britain is about the people of Britain, the Britons, so named by the Romans following the Greek name for our fair isles.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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Post #: 6

RE: Goodbye fair Britannia. - 4/2/2008 12:21:04 PM

kittinSol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Britannia is much the same to Britons as is Lady Liberty to the Americans, a national identity. Without an identity, what names a country..

We part ways right here, Aneirin: national identity is bad. Evil. Booh! I don't believe in worshiping at the altar of the nation. A country is a territory, and my preference is for using geography to mark the territory in question... unfortunately, people like to "push" the boundaries a little by waving flags and throwing coins with images of their rallying figures inscribed on them...

I'm glad I'm European, (British, actually) because it makes it easy for me to travel: but it's certainly not a source of pride for me. I'm proud of my personal achievements (for example, that I graduated from a famous "left-wing" university ;-) ), but not of the place where I was born (not in Britain).

To each their own, I suppose. But you have to agree that Rule Britannia is a dreadful embarrassment.

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RE: Goodbye fair Britannia. - 4/2/2008 12:27:46 PM

charmdpetKeira

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Britannia is much the same to Britons as is Lady Liberty to the Americans, a national identity. Without an identity, what names a country.

I was going with its goal, but I often stand alone.

k

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RE: Goodbye fair Britannia. - 4/2/2008 12:30:30 PM

RealityLicks

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We didn't have lectures at "left wing uni", we just plotted the overthrow of the miltary-industrial complex.

Still can't see any connection between Boudicca and Britannia in your link. Britannia was raped and beaten by the Romans and her royal status never recognised - she wasn't being commemorated by the choice of image.

The locals called themselves the "pretani" which got changed to "Britanni" and Britannia - the goddess of these isles, was a Roman invention, slavishly adopted much later. Put the rest down to The Matrix.

Tbh, the only real difference between Britannia and the French Ariane is that Ariane has her tit out and is usually depicted standing, whereas Britannia - prophetically enough - is seated in a sort of perpetual tea-break and has a bit of a miserable look on her face.

I love the new design and its good to see a young British designer getting such a fantastic break.

(in reply to Politesub53)

Post #: 9

RE: Goodbye fair Britannia. - 4/2/2008 12:36:03 PM

popeye1250

Posts: 18104
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From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Britannia is much the same to Britons as is Lady Liberty to the Americans, a national identity. Without an identity, what names a country..

We part ways right here, Aneirin: national identity is bad. Evil. Booh! I don't believe in worshiping at the altar of the nation. A country is a territory, and my preference is for using geography to mark the territory in question... unfortunately, people like to "push" the boundaries a little by waving flags and throwing coins with images of their rallying figures inscribed on them...

I'm glad I'm European, (British, actually) because it makes it easy for me to travel: but it's certainly not a source of pride for me. I'm proud of my personal achievements (for example, that I graduated from a famous "left-wing" university ;-) ), but not of the place where I was born (not in Britain).

To each their own, I suppose. But you have to agree that Rule Britannia is a dreadful embarrassment.

Kitten, I love that song!
"Rule Britania......!"
Now I'll be humming it all evening!
I'm just the opposite of you, I'm a Nationalist!
I love flags and secure borders.
"Left-wing university?"
Do they advertise themselves that way?
What's your "degree" in?
I went to a right -wing college, B.S. in Business before this "global economy" started.
Hey! "Opposites attract!"
"RULE BRITANIA.....!"

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RE: Goodbye fair Britannia. - 4/2/2008 12:36:30 PM

Aneirin

Posts: 6121
Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

Britannia is much the same to Britons as is Lady Liberty to the Americans, a national identity. Without an identity, what names a country..

We part ways right here, Aneirin: national identity is bad. Evil. Booh! I don't believe in worshiping at the altar of the nation. A country is a territory, and my preference is for using geography to mark the territory in question... unfortunately, people like to "push" the boundaries a little by waving flags and throwing coins with images of their rallying figures inscribed on them...

I'm glad I'm European, (British, actually) because it makes it easy for me to travel: but it's certainly not a source of pride for me. I'm proud of my personal achievements (for example, that I graduated from a famous "left-wing" university ;-) ), but not of the place where I was born (not in Britain).

To each their own, I suppose. But you have to agree that Rule Britannia is a dreadful embarrassment.

Nope, not really, the original version of the song describes the country, a country to be proud of. The song that is sung at the proms is a modified version which loses some of the original.

I think it is fair to say that we will defend our shores from those that wish to make us slaves.

The land of the Britons was at one time great, it can be again, great in the eyes of those that call it home.

I feel, for someone not to have a country they can call home, it is much like being a vagrant with nowhere to go, I am proud of my country, perhaps not some of it's history, but one can't have the good without the bad. The country can again be great in our eyes if we would just wake up and believed in ourselves. Cast aside those with social engineering on their mind and build our own society.

< Message edited by Aneirin -- 4/2/2008 12:41:43 PM >

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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Post #: 11

RE: Goodbye fair Britannia. - 4/2/2008 12:37:38 PM

kittinSol

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Pssssst.. it's Marianne :-) .

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RE: Goodbye fair Britannia. - 4/2/2008 12:40:04 PM

kittinSol

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Politics *sigh*.

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RE: Goodbye fair Britannia. - 4/2/2008 12:41:27 PM

RealityLicks

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By the way, I used to drink in the pub where Rule Britannia was written, it overlooks the Thames at Hammersmith. Good beer open fires as I recall and a brilliant little snug that is never empty.

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Post #: 14

RE: Goodbye fair Britannia. - 4/2/2008 12:43:49 PM

Aneirin

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From: Tamaris
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Hey Popeye, for you ;

When Britain first, at Heaven's command Arose from out the azure main; This was the charter of the land,And guardian angels sung this strain: "Rule, Britannia! rule the waves:"Britons never will be slaves."

The nations, not so blest as thee, Must, in their turns, to tyrants fall; While thou shalt flourish great and free, The dread and envy of them all. "Rule, Britannia! rule the waves: "Britons never will be slaves."

Still more majestic shalt thou rise, More dreadful, from each foreign stroke; As the loud blast that tears the skies, Serves but to root thy native oak. "Rule, Britannia! rule the waves:"Britons never will be slaves."

Thee haughty tyrants ne'er shall tame: All their attempts to bend thee down, Will but arouse thy generous flame;But work their woe, and thy renown. "Rule, Britannia! rule the waves: "Britons never will be slaves."

To thee belongs the rural reign; Thy cities shall with commerce shine: All thine shall be the subject main, And every shore it circles thine. "Rule, Britannia! rule the waves: "Britons never will be slaves."

The Muses, still with freedom found, Shall to thy happy coast repair; Blest Isle! With matchless beauty crown'd, And manly hearts to guard the fair. "Rule, Britannia! rule the waves:"Britons never will be slaves."

< Message edited by Aneirin -- 4/2/2008 12:47:41 PM >

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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Post #: 15

RE: Goodbye fair Britannia. - 4/2/2008 12:49:59 PM

kittinSol

Posts: 16926
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

"Rule, Britannia! rule the waves

The nations, not so blest as thee, Must, in their turns, to tyrants fall.

The dread and envy of them all.

More dreadful, from each foreign stroke

You DO realise how uncharmingly xenophobic, trumpetingly superior the above quotes are, right? Right?! They would be funny, if they weren't so tragic

.

< Message edited by kittinSol -- 4/2/2008 1:02:09 PM >

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RE: Goodbye fair Britannia. - 4/2/2008 12:59:13 PM

Aneirin

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Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline

Not at all, the song was written over a century ago, words which meant much at a time when our shores were threatened, but fear of foreigners, no, only those who wish to destroy what we have, a time when I will defend my shores, as I suspect many a commoner will do, as they did when Hitler, the last tyrant tried.

_____________________________

Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

(in reply to kittinSol)

Post #: 17

RE: Goodbye fair Britannia. - 4/2/2008 1:03:04 PM

kittinSol

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There's no arguing over aesthetics I guess.

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RE: Goodbye fair Britannia. - 4/2/2008 1:10:49 PM

popeye1250

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From: New Hampshire
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

"Rule, Britannia! rule the waves

The nations, not so blest as thee, Must, in their turns, to tyrants fall.

The dread and envy of them all.

More dreadful, from each foreign stroke

You DO realise how uncharmingly xenophobic, trumpetingly superior the above quotes are, right? Right?! They would be funny, if they weren't so tragic .

Kitten, the U.S. and Britain aren't xenophobic, we like each other's countries and peoples!
The thing about being a man is that you have to be willing to fight and die for your country and your family and I think "Rule Britania" expresses that nicely.
They have the same types of songs in Ireland too.
"RULE.....BRITANNIA......!"

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"But Your Honor, this is not a Jury of my Peers, these people are all decent, honest, law-abiding citizens!"

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RE: Goodbye fair Britannia. - 4/2/2008 1:13:04 PM

Politesub53

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Hey RL....... Nice try but you forget this bit

quote:

its only been on coins for 300 years..

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Post #: 20

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