RE: More Expectations… (Full Version)

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SimplyMichael -> RE: More Expectations… (4/9/2008 8:21:32 AM)

Beth,

I had a long rambling post till I read yours and deleted it.

You do have an expectation of Merc, that he will be the sort of dominant he is, that he WILL demand of you things, that he WILL dominate  you on the level you need. 

Consider this, if you have no expectations of him, then you have no expectations of anyone and the first joe who comes up and tossed a collar your way would be acceptable.

Clearly that isn't the case, you expect him to be the man that Merc is and you wouldn't be happy with anyone else.  To me, that is an expectation and a demand, albeit a passive one.




hopelesslyInvo -> RE: More Expectations… (4/9/2008 8:28:21 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tahlly
HopelesslyInvo,

 that may be your idea of relationships; and that may be how you approach them; however, I still, will, respectfully disagree with your words.


it's not too dependent of being just about relationships, and it's really probably and very literally all semantics here. 

expectations are simply what gets filled in, as your ignorance starts to diminish. 

think of even in that impulse or snap decision, you have little time to anticipate what is going to happen, so the course of action you take, the very reaction you have to it is based on what you expect to occur.  now surely "expectations" is in a slightly different category than "assumptions" though they are widely present in both situations.  with expectations you can predict, using good old common sense, the likelihood of an occurrence.  with an assumption though, you walk into a situation and are already basically convinced rather than confident of the outcome.  if a glass is dropped on a hard floor, you would have both the expectation and the assumption that it will break when it impacts.  if you again tell me "no i didn't" then it still is because you "expected" it wouldn't break, either because you were clueless of the outcome or because you thought the glass would withstand the trauma.  but now i drop a second glass, well what do you expect this time?  as long as the gears in your head are turning, you cannot tell me "i don't know what to expect" or "i don't expect anything", your experience has now led you to expect a bigger mess for someone to clean up. 

now put that into a relationship, if you get into a relationship where the two of you don't co-exist very well, you can expect it to shatter no differently than the glass did, but if you didn't know anything about them as you went into the relationship then you have no idea what to expect.  so obviously that relationship goes to hell, and 2 weeks later someone who seems very similar to that person asks you on a date, now what do you expect?  see, now you can expect alllll sorts of things.  if the first guy was a blind date that your friend julie set you up on, and julie tries to set you up on another blind date, what do you expect from julie’s arsenal of awesome potentials this time?  you probably either expect total crap, or you just go along with it while having much lower expectations than you might have previously took with you, but you surely expect julie isn't doing you many favors by playing match maker.

now on the other end, when looking for a relationship, it would be foolhardy to expect something from someone who neither knows, nor gives any inclinations of living up to what expectations you have established.  but then again, if they do know and attest to your expectations and if based on their sincerity, and your past experiences, if you’re even fairly convinced by them, it would be well within reason to expect that they live up to your expectations.  it’s really just night or day, you expect they were being honest, or you expect this guy to be a flake.  more importantly however, it would be not only within reason, but prudent to say "i have expectations not just of my partner, but of myself, and expectations of a meaningful relationship”, foundations of a level of importance that if those expectations are not met, the relationship would simply be unfulfilling.  if nothing else it is so simple as saying "i expect within reason that this relationship is likely to be worth my time”, else you would not waste your time.  i expect my partner to be what they claim if i trust them enough to make it to that step in the first place.  the more i know them the more i will know what to expect from them, the more i will know if they lived up to my expectations or exceeded them.

but it's all really just semantics, you say you only want things rather than expect of him.  you wanted to trust him, but you didn't expect to, though here you are and now you do trust him, so now that trust is built, you can expect things because of that.  demands are only one form of expectations, and expectations are not assurances, or denial based, and depending what you expect the outcome to be, the result could have been the result of setting yourself up for disappointment, or becoming pleasantly surprised.  if you don’t expect one outcome, you expect another, but if you truly and almost impossibly don't know what to expect, you're basically just a deer in headlights.  the more you know, the more you come to expect, the more your doubts will wane.  for example, i don't expect you to agree with me, i don't expect you want to read what i've written, and i expect i will waste little time in writing more, but seeing as how i wrote this anyway...

*post*




Mercnbeth -> RE: More Expectations… (4/9/2008 8:37:47 AM)

Michael,
 
sorry if there was a misunderstanding, but this slave did not say she didn't have expectations of Master.

quote:

there is also the expectation that we will be honest with each other, respectful of each other's place in our life and the things we have committed to each other...but those expectations run both ways.

 
the bolded part speaks to what You have commented on.  You gave it a finer detail, than this slave.




TreasureKY -> RE: More Expectations… (4/9/2008 8:39:17 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hopelesslyInvo

(clipping out a lot of good stuff)

... expectations are simply what gets filled in, as your ignorance starts to diminish...


lol... I like your style, hope.  A very good post, indeed.  [:D]

Edited because the quote box didn't like me.




Mercnbeth -> RE: More Expectations… (4/9/2008 8:40:01 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

to take it the step further that this slave feels is more the crux of the double standard...this slave makes no demands of Him, even if He falls short of her expectations...THAT does not run both ways.


So you're saying that you have expectations that he will make demands upon you, but expect not to make demands upon him?  [;)]



yes, that is what this slave is saying, with the added caveat that not only does she expect not to, she hasn't so far.[:)]




outlier -> RE: More Expectations… (4/9/2008 8:53:17 AM)

I think we all almost constantly have expectations whether we are aware
of them or not.  I think that they are part of the basic pattern recognition
necessary for our survival.  It is why I expect an apple to taste "like an
apple" and not make me sick.  This pattern recognition expectation, even
applies here on the boards.

For example:
I have an expectation that when I see a thread started by TreasureKY
it will be well thought out, well presented and defended in the classical
sense.  And it will evoke a number of sufficiently thoughtful responses
to be worthwhile.  

Thank you for meeting my expectations.

Outlier




TreasureKY -> RE: More Expectations… (4/9/2008 8:56:23 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: outlier

... I have an expectation that when I see a thread started by TreasureKY
it will be well thought out, well presented and defended in the classical
sense.  And it will evoke a number of sufficiently thoughtful responses
to be worthwhile.  

Thank you for meeting my expectations.

Outlier


[:)]  You are welcome, my friend, and thank you.




Mercnbeth -> RE: More Expectations… (4/9/2008 8:56:53 AM)

quote:

Clearly that isn't the case, you expect him to be the man that Merc is and you wouldn't be happy with anyone else.  To me, that is an expectation and a demand, albeit a passive one.


Michael,
More proof that the written form of communication is the least effective.

Twenty five years failure for me searching for a compatible partner jaded me to no end. Reality is, I had but one demand; represent yourself honestly. I had a plethora of people who 'thought' they were doing so and did for limited periods of time - a weekend, a week. I married one who baited the hook for 2 years and revealed herself honestly on the flight going to our honeymoon. Stuck around for years dealing with that, no so much because I wanted to but to punish myself for being so easily conned.

Back on point.

When beth posted her perspective I disagreed with the basic premise that there were no demands on me too. However the demands don't come from her, they come from me. My expectations for myself come under the concept that I represent our relationship. I too am a 'slave' to what collectively is called 'Mercnbeth'. Interpreting that as a beth originated demand is arguable. However, semantics or rationalization, the demands exist only in that context of serving the relationship.

I expected beth to represent herself honestly. she had the same expectations for me. There are some very high expectations involved. ALL serving the relationship that we enjoy so much.

Neither of us have been happier, more content, and more confident in our partners. There is no doubt in either of us that the other is the most important thing in our life. As a matter of fact, family and friends no that too. We are extremely selfish regarding us.

When it comes to demands beth could never demand more of me than I do of myself. Interesting enough I believe the same holds for her. It's our compatibility that gives the seamless appearance, and beth's perspective of making no demands. After 5 years I doubt I've been fooled about her; and I don't think I fell short of her expectataions based upon our intial personal representation. I can't express in words how much fun it is!




kyraofMists -> RE: More Expectations… (4/9/2008 10:32:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY
But what about expectations on the part of the submissive?   


I am allowed to have the expectations that he has given me in regards to my relationship with him.  The main one is that I can expect him to do his will and not intentionally harm me. 

The one expectation that I cannot have is to expect him to do my will or do things the way I want them to be done.  Having this expectation will only be destructive to our relationship.

Knight's Kyra




SimplyMichael -> RE: More Expectations… (4/9/2008 11:19:52 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth

Michael,
 
sorry if there was a misunderstanding, but this slave did not say she didn't have expectations of Master.

quote:

there is also the expectation that we will be honest with each other, respectful of each other's place in our life and the things we have committed to each other...but those expectations run both ways.

 
the bolded part speaks to what You have commented on.  You gave it a finer detail, than this slave.


Actually, YOU did better than I did, I just didn't read your post well enough.

Merc,  You two have one of the only relationships that meets what I would consider to be be a "Master/slave" relationship where the submissive partner is truly a slave to her Master.  Having spent enough time with you two in real life you have dispelled my belief that they were impossible.  As  you said, you two are both truly happy, emotionally healthy, and one hell of a lot of fun.




DelilahDeb -> RE: More Expectations… (4/9/2008 11:47:24 AM)

Humans learn to deal with the world based on patterns of experience. As a species: UMs wake up, make noise, parents/caretakers respond by seeing to feeding, UMs develop "expectation" that making noise will get it fed. Our brains are pattern-recognition systems (among other things). A particular UM might have a different experience if born to an addicted parent, and will develop a very different expectation. That's humans. And that pattern-recognition factor is a big part of how we humans learn to deal with the world we inhabit, whether UMs or legal adults or senior citizens.

****
An education experiment decades ago:
A pool of kids of random IQ and educational achievement are randomly divided into equal groups.
Qualified teachers of equal experience and achievement instruct each group.

Phase ONE:
A teacher is told that X group of students are remedial performers: over months, they perform poorly.
A teacher is told that Y group of students are above-average intelligence: over months, they excel.
The students performed to the TEACHER's expectations.

Phase TWO:
A teacher is told that Y group of students are remedial performers: over months, they perform poorly.
A teacher is told that X group of students are above-average intelligence: over months, they excel.
Once again, the students performed to the TEACHER's expectations.

But all the students were of completely mixed and random intelligence and past performance scholastically.
The only difference was what the teachers believed were the students' capabilities.
****

Expectations can be self-fulfilling prophecies; wherefore the absolute need for communication.
Figure out your own expectations. Ask about your partner's expectations. Your partner may not even know what hir expectations are, but it's a place to start talking.

Delilah Deb

the joys of magical thinking...




CreativeDominant -> RE: More Expectations… (4/9/2008 12:20:15 PM)

Another well thought-out post, treasure.

In my world, the submissive does have the right to expectations.  She is a human being with basic needs and more complex needs and, as a human being, has the right to expect that her needs will be met...either by herself or by another or by the two together.

A submissive that states that she has absolutely no expectations would scare me.  Were one to say to be that she expects only for me to dominate her in whatever fashion I chose...with little discussion of her life, her past experiences, her hurts, her hopes, her desires, etc...would indicate to me someone whose existence as a person, whose definition as a person is dependant upon how others see her and then, make her into. 

The basic needs...food, water, fresh air, shelter...are usually met by the individual. But in a situation in which the submissive has quit her job in order to serve her dominant, she has done so with the expectation that these needs will be met by the dominant.  The more complex needs AND wants-masquerading-as-needs is where it gets more complicated and where communication plays a very essential part.  As an example:  Does the submissive have a past history that has led her to a point where she needs reassurance that she is not a stupid oaf or an ugly, fat cow?  Though the lack of this will not cause her to die physically, the lack of it could well lead to a death of the soul/spirit.  If she has made this clear to the dominant and he has agreed to fulfill this need, does she have the right to expect it?  Yes...but to paraphrase kyra, she cannot expect that she gets to dictate the how and when and where of fulfillment of that expectation. 

Expectations and their importance to the partner will vary from D/s dynamic to D/s dynamic.  There are some submissives (think "do me types" or SAMS) who feel they have the right to demand that the dominant do something and some dominants who go along with these demands.  There are others on beth's side of the spectrum:  while they consider it a right to have expectations of the one they call Master/Mistress, they recognize the face that there is no right to make demands...which ARE different than expectations.

As has been said, and I know it sounds cliche, but communication, whether immediate or after thought, is vital.






SailingBum -> RE: More Expectations… (4/9/2008 12:45:14 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Beth,

I had a long rambling post till I read yours and deleted it.

You do have an expectation of Merc, that he will be the sort of dominant he is, that he WILL demand of you things, that he WILL dominate  you on the level you need. 



LOL if ppl can't make their point in under 3 short paragraphs I can't be bothered.  This is one long winded thread.  My expections are for shorter posts.  SHEESH




TreasureKY -> RE: More Expectations� (4/9/2008 1:42:38 PM)

Obviously it didn't keep you from bothering to complain about it, SB.




TreasureKY -> RE: More Expectations… (4/9/2008 2:52:54 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY
But what about expectations on the part of the submissive?   


I am allowed to have the expectations that he has given me in regards to my relationship with him.  The main one is that I can expect him to do his will and not intentionally harm me. 

The one expectation that I cannot have is to expect him to do my will or do things the way I want them to be done.  Having this expectation will only be destructive to our relationship.


I do understand your position, Kyra, and respect the limitations on expectations that KoM requires.  I'm just not so convinced that expectations can be dictated that easily.  I would imagine that you are very much in agreement, or you'd have a hard time living within those restrictions.




LuckyAlbatross -> RE: More Expectations… (4/9/2008 4:13:27 PM)

I think that's a great post Treasure, very well worded and expressive.

I can add that expectations should be kept at base minimum if they exist at all until there is solid reason to believe otherwise.  Assuming expectations and understandings with them is just one of the major fuck ups in relationships.  You can't rely on expectations until you know the person and situation well enough to know what you're likely to get.

And the other side is when the person CLEARLY expresses exactly who they are and what they will be giving, and the other person not only closes their eyes to it, but then gets upset about getting something else (aka he only calls when his wife isn't around and I'm so upset that I don't get more time)




Lumus -> RE: More Expectations… (4/9/2008 5:00:22 PM)

I was tempted to respond to this in another manner, but in retrospect, it would probably spark the type of dramatic arguments that no one needs.

So, keeping things on a quieter note:  expectations can develop by embracing an accepted assumption, majorally based on prior experience and personal perception.  There's a handful of variables there.  Rather than develop expectations, my personal prefence is to appreciate the situation, and those involved, for what they are.  The two are not mutually exclusive; I just find appreciation runs deeper than expectation, and would rather not worry myself about the things that might be when what is, is right in front of me.

Back to the OP:  I realize you may have expectations, but would you rather have appreciation for Firm, or hold expectations of him?  To be frank, your profile infers the former, not the latter.




ownedgirlie -> RE: More Expectations… (4/9/2008 5:20:05 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY
I'm just not so convinced that expectations can be dictated that easily. 


Here's the thing.  They can be dictated, and that which is dictated can be upheld, as long as everyone is meeting whatever expectations they have (whether realized or unrealized).  I expect my Master to be a Master in the way he represented himself to be.  Should he stop being that kind of Master, suddenly I'll find all sorts of other previously unrealized expectations that aren't being met.  Certain expectations come as a result of conditioning within a relationship.  I can expect to anger my Master if I say such-n-such to him, and I can expect he'll be pleased if I say this-n-that.  But for now I can simply say I expect him to be the Master I know him to be.  If he stops being that, I might realize all sorts of expectations which go along with that particular style of mastery.

As for making demands, that's an entirely different ballgame.  Expectations and demands do not go hand in hand.




kyraofMists -> RE: More Expectations… (4/9/2008 6:54:18 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY
I do understand your position, Kyra, and respect the limitations on expectations that KoM requires.  I'm just not so convinced that expectations can be dictated that easily.  I would imagine that you are very much in agreement, or you'd have a hard time living within those restrictions.



Well, not all of them were adopted so easily, sometimes it was quite a painful learning process on my part.  However, when weighed against not having him in my life, it was the least painful path.  He knows how to make our relationship work and he knows how to make the best decisions for our relationship.  It took some time for me to learn his perspective and shed some of the useless baggage I was carrying.

Now I know that he will do what he thinks is best for our relationship and I am able to let go of expectations that do not fit within our relationship.  There are times when I am disappointed in something and I realize that it is because I am expecting something of him that is unrealistic for our relationship.  I cannot recall it happening since moving in, but I would not be surprised if it happens in the future and he will expect me to deal with it in a manner that benefits our relationship.

Not so easy, but very liberating in a way. 

Knight's Kyra




SimplyMichael -> RE: More Expectations… (4/9/2008 7:18:51 PM)

quote:

I was tempted to respond to this in another manner, but in retrospect, it would probably spark the type of dramatic arguments that no one needs.


Yeah, the "I am a more real dom than you" tends to do that.

quote:

expectations can develop by embracing an accepted assumption, majorally based on prior experience and personal perception.  There's a handful of variables there. 


Yah think?

quote:

Rather than develop expectations, my personal prefence is to appreciate the situation, and those involved, for what they are. 


How evolved of you

quote:

 I just find appreciation runs deeper than expectation, and would rather not worry myself about the things that might be when what is, is right in front of me.


So if your partner announced she was no longer interested in sleeping with men and wanted to only sleep with women, you would sit back and "appreciate" it?  Or if she decided you should submit to her?  You have no expectations that fundamental things won't change?

quote:

Back to the OP:  I realize you may have expectations, but would you rather have appreciation for Firm, or hold expectations of him?  To be frank, your profile infers the former, not the latter.


I think most submissives have expectations that their dominants with continue to be dominant and not become bottoms. 

The thread isn't about hidden expectations, it is about having expectations that are clearly expressed, a far different concept.




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