RE: More Expectations… (Full Version)

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catize -> RE: More Expectations… (4/9/2008 7:52:14 PM)

I think it is perfectly reasonable to expect fulfillment in whatever form that takes for the individual and the relationship.
Why do we seek to bring others into our lives if not to find happiness?  I’d say that fits under the category of expectations.



Lumus -> RE: More Expectations… (4/9/2008 7:55:49 PM)

Oh, Michael, you zany, whacky guy.  Gimme a hug.

If I'm giving a personal opinion I try to make it as painfully obvious as possible to avoid the flames from people who think I'm generalizing.  In doing so, it seems to compel you to flame me for expressing myself.  While that kind of repeated attention is oh-so-sweet, I fail to see the rationale.

To the first part of your reply that wasn't a direct bitchslap:  the mother of my son no longer sleeps with men.  She is living with a woman, in fact.  I do not expect to have sex with her again, nor do I have any desire to...we broke up for a reason, incompatibility [and not over gender, surprise!].  I appreciate that she should be happy and that her happiness affects my son's happiness.  Note the underlined part; while I may not get along with my ex, my son's needs are still important.  Which is paramount in this case, then:  my appreciation [and acceptance] of the situation, or my expectations [which would be driven entirely by personal desires and thus biased]?  To your specific example - I can appreciate that other people can make choices that inconvenience or contradict me, which doesn't make them any less valid.  My personal 'expectations' of 'fundamental things' can be counted on one hand, as they are all based on fact, and fact alone.

I'll also toss out the idea that while a sub can make any expectation they like [as can a Dom], the expectation is still something driven by personal perception and therefore cannot be equated with hard fact unequivocally.  Things change, shit happens.  That's why a hidden or expressed expectation holds the same value - faith-based as it is, an expectation is about as factually based as the Bible [said the former minister's son].  There's grains of truth in there, but the whole cannot be construed as fact beyond the fact that you currently think you know.

One last thing - since this has been an ongoing thing, could we touch base off the boards, Michael, so I can find out why you are compelled to sling derision my way?  Be cool to know the basis of it.  I specify off the boards because drama annoys the fuck out of me, and I imagine the same is true for others...



Daddyslilpookie -> RE: More Expectations… (4/9/2008 8:01:39 PM)

 Everyone has expectations, even though mine are really high as my  friends would tell you about me. Which I have a Master who meets all my expectations and I meet his so all is good[;)]



TreasureKY -> RE: More Expectations… (4/9/2008 8:46:57 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lumus

... Rather than develop expectations, my personal prefence is to appreciate the situation, and those involved, for what they are.  The two are not mutually exclusive; I just find appreciation runs deeper than expectation, and would rather not worry myself about the things that might be when what is, is right in front of me.


That's nice.  For me, though, I don't find acceptance and expectation to be interchangable.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lumus

Back to the OP:  I realize you may have expectations, but would you rather have appreciation for Firm, or hold expectations of him?  To be frank, your profile infers the former, not the latter.


Of course I have expectations... for Firm, myself, and our relationship, as well as deep appreciation.  As you've said, acceptance and expectation are not mutually exclusive.  With regard to a preference, I'm afraid my answer may both surprise and disappoint.

You see, I do prefer my expectations to take priority. 

I believe my expectations (and his) were the foundation for our relationship.  Without our personal expectations, we would not have recognized the possibilities between us.  Communication of those expectations solidified our compatibility.  Those expectations led to trust.

And with the benefits of expectations behind us, we can appreciate each other more fully and with the confidence those expectations provided.  We can now enjoy the relationship we've developed with fewer expectations.

So we have our cake and eat it, too.  [;)]

Edited to add for Michael:  [sm=applause.gif]



gypsygrl -> RE: More Expectations… (4/9/2008 9:01:07 PM)

quote:

****
An education experiment decades ago:
A pool of kids of random IQ and educational achievement are randomly divided into equal groups.
Qualified teachers of equal experience and achievement instruct each group.

Phase ONE:
A teacher is told that X group of students are remedial performers: over months, they perform poorly.
A teacher is told that Y group of students are above-average intelligence: over months, they excel.
The students performed to the TEACHER's expectations.

Phase TWO:
A teacher is told that Y group of students are remedial performers: over months, they perform poorly.
A teacher is told that X group of students are above-average intelligence: over months, they excel.
Once again, the students performed to the TEACHER's expectations.

But all the students were of completely mixed and random intelligence and past performance scholastically.
The only difference was what the teachers believed were the students' capabilities.


The education experiment you're talking about is documented in the book, Pygmalion in the Classroom.  If I'm not mistaken, its been discredited.  Unfortunately, as so often happens with anything 'scientific,' the process of criticism hasn't gotten as much press as the original study.



Corvidae -> RE: More Expectations… (4/9/2008 9:07:33 PM)

As several people before me have said, expectations on both sides of the equation are good, so long as they are communicated.
The important thing is not to assume anything (as my geometry teacher once said "When you ASSUME you make and ASS out of U and ME... cheezy, but true).
For example, if a dominant enters a scene and expects to be treated like the sub's one and only true god, and the sub enters the sence expecting to treat the dominant as their evil captor, both parties might get confused or frusterated with the other's behavior. However, if they communicate these expectations before the scene they can perhaps come to a compromise (such as starting off as evil captor, but through the course of the scene the sub comes to treat dom as one true god). Or, if they might decide not to do a scene together after all.



Lumus -> RE: More Expectations… (4/9/2008 9:17:39 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

That's nice.  For me, though, I don't find acceptance and expectation to be interchangable.

Of course I have expectations... for Firm, myself, and our relationship, as well as deep appreciation.  As you've said, acceptance and expectation are not mutually exclusive.  With regard to a preference, I'm afraid my answer may both surprise and disappoint.

You see, I do prefer my expectations to take priority. 

I believe my expectations (and his) were the foundation for our relationship.  Without our personal expectations, we would not have recognized the possibilities between us.  Communication of those expectations solidified our compatibility.  Those expectations led to trust.

And with the benefits of expectations behind us, we can appreciate each other more fully and with the confidence those expectations provided.  We can now enjoy the relationship we've developed with fewer expectations.

So we have our cake and eat it, too.  [;)]


I'm afraid I'm not following you.  I never said or meant to infer that appreciation and expectation are interchangeable; quite the opposite.  They are separate, distinct, but not mutually exclusive concepts.

Here, I'm defining expectation as what you believe will occur; appreciation steps beyond that equation to say, "this is how things are" - meaning that you go by fact, not what you believe will become fact.

I'm not surprised that you have expectations; I'm surprised that you value what you think is your relationship over what I meant by appreciation, which is what it is.  In other words, you might think something in the relationship is and always will be, which I've seen firsthand isn't always the case.  Appreciation, by the definition I'm offering above, looks at the relationship as it is without bias - and there's aways bias, which is evidenced by the fact that people regularly miscommunicate and have arguments...which is healthy, by the way. [:)]

I'm glad you two are happy, and if all things work out to the fabled forever and ever of the beloved fairytales of youth, then all the best.  I was merely acknowledging that that is hardly the majority of relationships or their dynamics.  How often do people eventually part because they didn't appreciate their partner for what they were, and instead relied on expectations even though the other person changed?



SailingBum -> RE: More Expectations⢠ tabindex= (4/9/2008 9:34:59 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

Obviously it didn't keep you from bothering to complain about it, SB.


Thanks for noticing and I managed to stay on topic.

BadOne



LostMyself -> RE: More Expectations… (4/9/2008 10:41:07 PM)

Sometimes, a dominant gives a submissive expectations...  My former mistress had told me that if I came to her on my knees in submission and gave all of myself to her, that she would always take care of me..



SimplyMichael -> RE: More Expectations… (4/9/2008 11:26:55 PM)

Lemus,

First off, I want to apologize for my example, I had no idea it was in any way similar to your life and would never have  used it if I did.  I might be an asshole but that sort of crap is beneath me.

With that out of the way, you wrote:

quote:

Michael, so I can find out why you are compelled to sling derision my way?  Be cool to know the basis of it.  I specify off the boards because drama annoys the fuck out of me, and I imagine the same is true for others…


If drama “annoys the fuck out of” you and you wanted to discuss this in private, why didn’t you?  Instead you post publicly asking me to take things private.

Your opening in the post I was responding to stated that you had a comment to make but didn’t want to post it because of the drama.  If you didn’t want the drama, why say anything at all?  Again, you want others to do as you say, not as you do.  Here, most of us call that hypocrisy.

So back to an open and direct discussion, you stated that

quote:

My personal 'expectations' of 'fundamental things' can be counted on one hand, as they are all based on fact, and fact alone.


And thus you prove my point.  I hadn’t stated ALL people have over 5 expectations (assuming you have 4 fingers and a thumb) and so, on the issue of whether people have expectations, we agree

You then go on to write.

quote:

Things change, shit happens. 

They do, and when they do, you either consciously or unconsciously reevaluate the relationship based on your expectations and then decide to continue or end it.



MadRabbit -> RE: More Expectations… (4/10/2008 5:17:35 AM)

It's really just one of those bullshit things dominants say to make themselves feel more powerful.

If you are a submissive, you expect to be able to submit.

If you want to please someone, you expect to be able to please them.

If someone really did have no expectations, then they could submit to anyone anytime regardless of character or compatibility.






CreativeDominant -> RE: More Expectations… (4/10/2008 7:38:22 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lumus

I'm afraid I'm not following you.  I never said or meant to infer that appreciation and expectation are interchangeable; quite the opposite.  They are separate, distinct, but not mutually exclusive concepts.

Here, I'm defining expectation as what you believe will occur; appreciation steps beyond that equation to say, "this is how things are" - meaning that you go by fact, not what you believe will become fact.

I'm not surprised that you have expectations; I'm surprised that you value what you think is your relationship over what I meant by appreciation, which is what it is.  In other words, you might think something in the relationship is and always will be, which I've seen firsthand isn't always the case.  Appreciation, by the definition I'm offering above, looks at the relationship as it is without bias - and there's aways bias, which is evidenced by the fact that people regularly miscommunicate and have arguments...which is healthy, by the way. [:)]


I will, respectfully, disagree.

Appreciation of "how things are" can lead acceptance and to inaction.  My ex became about as frigid as the weather in International Falls, Mn...short periods of heat and sultriness interspersed with much longer periods of dryness and cold, arctic-like behavior.  For awhile, I tried to change this.  Eventually, I just began to accept it...to appreciate that "this is how it is" and I became inactive.  Then my anger over the situation and my expectations from before I'd ever married her began to come to the forefront and I began to "make noise".  It eventually led to our parting.  We have been apart for 9 years now and I do not appreciate the change in her behavior any more now then I did then.  I accept it...but I do not have to live with it because my expectations for the sexual expression of our union remain different than hers.  This is one reason why any submissive I deal with is told early on what my expectations are for the sexual part of our dynamic.  I expect these things and I want a submissive who expects this type of sexuality...frequency, intensity, duration...AND appreciates it and understands that I will not appreciate nor expect anything less barring reasons such as health or a TEMPORARY situation which we both have agreed will be limiting in our time together in all ways. 

I expect communication and will not appreciate a situation in which it is not forthcoming nor will I expect less just because it is difficult for the submissive to communicate.  I will be extremely patient while helping her learn to communicate effective but I expect her to let me help her communicate...in some form or fashion...with me or the relationship suffers. 

I expect civility and courtesy and I do not expect nor would I appreciate anything less.  Arguments happen but there are ways to conduct arguments that do not involve screaming at the top of your lungs or calling your partner names or being "in my face" me being "in her face".

I expect patience and understanding and I do not expect nor would I appreciate anything less.  As noted by many on many posts before, including me...I am not perfect (yeah, I know...hard to believe) and I am going to make mistakes.  More so at the beginning of the dynamic than after time has passed but they will be there.  I expect that...the mistakes... of myself but I do not appreciate it and so, I strive to reduce them.  I expect my submissive to have patience and understanding with those mistakes and note them mainly so she can see that they do occur less and less and concentrate more on what I do right.  She has the right to expect patience and understanding from me as I am new to her, my ways are new to her...while many things I do may be similar to what she has known in the past, I am an individual in my own right with my own twist on things.  So while she may do her level best, there are going to be mistakes on her part also.  I expect this.  I also expect them to occur less and less frequently and would not appreciate them occurring over and over...to use your phrase, that would be an appreciation of "how things are" and could be used as a basis for inaction...no attempt to make things better, no attempt to change behaviors, nothing. 

These are my basic expectations.  Most of them are reciprocal expectations.  When they are not met, the situation would not be met with appreciation but with communication about how to get to a point where the expectations are met on both sides.






TreasureKY -> RE: More Expectations� (4/10/2008 7:53:42 AM)

Thank you, CD... I couldn't have said it better.

To me, expectations, acceptance and appreciation are all entirely separate and do not usurp each other.

Just because I accept something, doesn't mean I appreciate it. In the same way, just because I accept something for the way it is, that doesn't mean that I no longer have my expectation. Sometimes you can just agree that an expectation isn't going to get filled.



tahlly -> RE: More Expectations� (4/10/2008 8:19:49 AM)


To the OP
I have tried to see some kind of agreement with your words; I am sorry though, but I still must disagree with YOUR assumption of how I interpret certain things within my own life and that of my relationships. If you must, by some decree that only you are aware of; determine that I do not know my own mind, or that I do not know what I am really trying to express; then all I can say is congratulations and I hope that your conclusions are one’s that keep you happy.
Personally, I have no more to add as I have no pressing need to force you to understand.

To Lemus
Thank you; you said it so much clearer than I could have.



LadyRainfire -> RE: More Expectations� (4/10/2008 9:27:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: tahlly


To the OP
I have tried to see some kind of agreement with your words; I am sorry though, but I still must disagree with YOUR assumption of how I interpret certain things within my own life and that of my relationships. If you must, by some decree that only you are aware of; determine that I do not know my own mind, or that I do not know what I am really trying to express; then all I can say is congratulations and I hope that your conclusions are one’s that keep you happy.
Personally, I have no more to add as I have no pressing need to force you to understand.

To Lemus
Thank you; you said it so much clearer than I could have.


tahlly, it's Lumus. Possibly a typo on Michael's part...

As for expectations, we can have them of ourselves and what we want in a relationship, but that doesn't always equate to placing those expectations on other people. A person can appreciate someone for just as they are, no expectations.



colouredin -> RE: More Expectations� (4/10/2008 9:29:13 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyRainfire
A person can appreciate someone for just as they are, no expectations.


I agree with this statement, but it depends on the relationship, for example I dont really place expctations on my sisters, they dont own me anything therefore if they go out of their way for me or anything like that I appriciate the hell out of it.



TreasureKY -> RE: More Expectations� (4/10/2008 10:01:16 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyRainfire

As for expectations, we can have them of ourselves and what we want in a relationship, but that doesn't always equate to placing those expectations on other people.


I don't disagree... my expectations do not apply to all people, all relationships or all situations, and may not even apply equally when they do.

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyRainfire

A person can appreciate someone for just as they are, no expectations.


For me, that depends upon how you define "appreciate".

1.  to be grateful or thankful for;

2.  to value or regard highly;

3.  to be fully conscious of; or

4.  to raise in value.

I agree that the third definition is one that I could have no problem applying to anyone or any situation without expectations... but for the others, there will most likely always be expectations.

quote:

ORIGINAL: tahlly

... I am sorry though, but I still must disagree with YOUR assumption of how I interpret certain things within my own life and that of my relationships.


That's quite alright, tahlly... there is no need to be sorry.  I've no need for you to agree with my opinions.



gypsygrl -> RE: More Expectations� (4/10/2008 10:13:08 AM)

quote:

3.  to be fully conscious of; or


I read 'appreciate' that way.  I understood Lumus's posts very differently from others on the thread.  Basically, what I got (and I drew my own conclusions from his comments so I'm not saying this is exactly what he meant) out of it was that realistic expectations should be based on appreciation. 

Enjoyed your thread, btw.  It gave me alot to think about.




kyraofMists -> RE: More Expectations… (4/10/2008 10:45:05 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MadRabbit
If you are a submissive, you expect to be able to submit.

If you want to please someone, you expect to be able to please them.


On the surface these look like reasonable and understandable expectations to have in a relationship, but are they?  Is it really about have no expectations on the submissive's part or is it about having reasonable expectations for the relationship that you are in.  If the expectations are reasonable and work within your relationship, then the dominant partner is unlikely to feel any push to meet the expectations.

I am submissive and I expect that I will be required to submit to him to maintain the relationship.  They key though is that I submit on his terms and not on mine.  In reading the boards there are submissives who think that submitting is about doing something that gives them certain feelings.  If they don't get those feelings out of doing an action, then it is not perceived as submission.  They wish to submit on their terms and not the dominant's. 

I expect that at any time I will have to submit to things that give me pleasure, some that I am indifferent to and some that are extremely challenging and cause me pain.  I don't expect him to subscribe to my idea of submission; I don't expect him to have me do things that give me certain feelings.  I expect him to do his will regardless of whether I enjoy it or not.  I rely on this; it gives me the freedom to make any request of him that I want, to speak to him about anything that I want because I know that he will refuse me if it goes against his will.

I do very much want to please him; I crave it, but again I do it on his terms.  I do not expect to do what I perceive as pleasing to him and I do not expect to always be allowed to do things that I know please him.  I want to do those things, but I don't expect to be able to do them at my discretion.

I think understanding what is below the surface regarding expectations is important in understanding if they are reasonable or not.  You expect to submit and be able to please?  So what does that look like to you?  How and when do you expect to do that?

Rabbit, this isn't really directed to you; they are just some thoughts that came to mind when I read your post.

Knight's Kyra



CreativeDominant -> RE: More Expectations… (4/10/2008 11:53:38 AM)

Nicely said, kyra...and my thoughts regarding D/s contain much of what you've just noted.



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