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colouredin -> RE: More Expectations… (4/10/2008 12:04:43 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists
I am submissive and I expect that I will be required to submit to him to maintain the relationship.  They key though is that I submit on his terms and not on mine.


Devils advocate, would you have been interested in the first place in someone whos idea of submission was that whenever he rang you you would go round to his house and give him a blow job with him? that is your only role, and he doesnt talk to you about anything ever apart from that? What if thats what happened now in your relationship? (I know its far fetched but devils advocate) Dont you therefore have some expectations of him to be diverse and all that jazz? Would you stay  in the relationship indefinatly if that became his indefinate requirements? - Im not picking on you, just wondered.



SimplyMichael -> RE: More Expectations… (4/10/2008 1:13:56 PM)

Kyra,

You wrote:

quote:

  I expect that at any time I will have to submit to things that give me pleasure, some that I am indifferent to and some that are extremely challenging and cause me pain.  I don't expect him to subscribe to my idea of submission; I don't expect him to have me do things that give me certain feelings. 


Both of those sound like expectations to me.  You respect him enough to submit to his vision and have an expecation that you will continue to respect him.



Justme696 -> RE: More Expectations… (4/10/2008 1:16:35 PM)

quote:

Both of those sound like expectations to me


and expect reads like expect(ation) also  [:D]



SimplyMichael -> RE: More Expectations… (4/10/2008 1:35:11 PM)

Part of the problem of this discussion is we are not using "expectations" in a consistent way and we need either a better word or a more precise definition.  Consider the following two examples.
 
I have an expectation that my partner will know, even though I haven’t told him, that I want to be paddled 13.7 times at a medium intensity and then given 4.5 orgasms.
 
I have an expectation that my partner will not hesitate to ask me to do things that will be hard and or difficult for me but as long as my partner continues to meet my expectations for a partner, I will continue to submit.
 
Two very different extremes of meaning for the same word.    I don’t know how to make the usage of the word more clear.  This is an awkward way of saying it but “My expectations around my needs” and “My expectations around my wants”.
 
That is still way to coarse a definition definition because needs is still to broad a modifier.    Perhaps it is as simple as “I expect you to retain the qualities that drew me to you in the first place” but even that has problems.



BitaTruble -> RE: More Expectations… (4/10/2008 2:30:31 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Part of the problem of this discussion is we are not using "expectations" in a consistent way and we need either a better word or a more precise definition.   


Something has been nagging me as I read through this whole thread and I think you just hit on it. I have the hope that certain things will happen based on the past and my knowledge of him. I don't, necessarily expect those things to happen, but I do hope for them. I found it rather odd that when I looked up the word hope in my dictionary, expectation was considered a synonym and that just doesn't seem right at all to me. I think one of the reasons I seldom get disappointed is because I'm much more likely to embrace hopeful than I am to embrace expecting certain behaviors, treats, actions or styles. There are other things which I highly doubt will ever happen and I'm hopeful that they won't, but am aware they might.

Overall, I think expectations speak to some future event based on past performance and I do prefer to live in the present with knowledge of the past and hope for the future. It's the here and now that is of the most concern to me, however.

I think, also, that expectations combine with a big IF and I'm not overly fond of IF. I expect that Himself will enjoy what I make for dinner tonight IF I don't burn it, IF he is in the mood for it, IF he feels well enough to enjoy his dinner .. etc, etc.

IF I keep serving as he desires, I expect he'll keep me. With that thinking, I'm setting myself up for a major fall IF he decides to dump me for some other reason. Nah, much better to serve as he desires and 'hope' he'll keep me. Being aware that change happens in a split second for a variety of reasons is reason enough for me to keep expectations very low even if I have high hopes.

Celeste



gypsygrl -> RE: More Expectations… (4/10/2008 2:57:49 PM)

quote:

Being aware that change happens in a split second for a variety of reasons is reason enough for me to keep expectations very low even if I have high hopes.


Maybe, 'prepare for the worst, hope for the best?'



ownedgirlie -> RE: More Expectations… (4/10/2008 4:34:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl

quote:

Being aware that change happens in a split second for a variety of reasons is reason enough for me to keep expectations very low even if I have high hopes.


Maybe, 'prepare for the worst, hope for the best?'


I prefer to keep my thoughts positive.  Being a former negative thinker, the concept above doesn't work for me.  I am capable of dealing with the worst, but  aim for the best.  But maybe that's just semantics.

Celeste, once again I share your thoughts.  I do not equate hopes with expectations - two completely different animals. 



KnightofMists -> RE: More Expectations… (4/10/2008 5:08:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

Kyra,

You wrote:

quote:

  I expect that at any time I will have to submit to things that give me pleasure, some that I am indifferent to and some that are extremely challenging and cause me pain.  I don't expect him to subscribe to my idea of submission; I don't expect him to have me do things that give me certain feelings. 


Both of those sound like expectations to me.  You respect him enough to submit to his vision and have an expecation that you will continue to respect him.



There is a huge difference between

I expect him to do what I want!

Compared to

I expect him to do what He wants!

In case people are misunderstanding... Kyra is NOT advocating that she has NO Expectations.  However, she is been taught to be very responsible in what she expects to have or not have.  As my slave, she has learned at times the hard way.. that  her expectations can lead her to alot of emotional disappointments.  She has learned that "Realistic" Expectations are very critical in protecting herself from emotional disappointments.  She has learned that she MUST gain my perspectives on a given issue and what expectation would be realistic to expect from me and therefore what she can expect.  In essense, she has to go to the Well before she can drink the water.

Another issue that clouds things... Is the idea of Expectation vrs the idea of Wants.

I believe we can want alot of things... but realistically I don't expect to have my wants all met.. infact some I expect alot will never be met.   Expectations are in a subset to our wants.  Unfortunately, I think alot of times we just group them all as one.  Over time Kyra has (just Alandra before her) learned to start to make a distinction between the things she wants.  Understanding that some things she can expect to have and some wants she can expect not get.  But just because she doesn'tt expect to get it... doesn't mean she stops wanting it.  She as learned very successfully (alot quicker than I expected) to let go of Her Expectation with regards to her Wants!  She has learned to pare things back to the basics of her Needs for her Well-Being.   I have learned what wants allow her to thrive and enhance who she is.  She May want a Mustang car... but she knows never to expect it.  I see no value in her having it that would enhance her or help her to thrive.  But yet... she still wants the damn think. 

I think this concept might be hard for some to understand/accept... particularly for those that live a Limit authority transfer as compared to Total authority transfer dynamic.   As someone that lives a Total Authority Transfer (TAT) Dynamic, I feel it critical that the Dominant is very careful in managing the Expectations that are established in the dynamic.  As the person that has all the authority to make any decision, one can inadvertently cause emotional stress ones partner because of an expectation that was established.  Expectations, if not focused and consider on a conscious level can slip in have play ahavoc with the emotions of the submissive partner in a TAT Dynamic.  It is the responsibility of the Dominant partner to becareful on the messages that they send that may create expectations.



catize -> RE: More Expectations… (4/10/2008 5:50:50 PM)

quote:

Overall, I think expectations speak to some future event based on past performance and I do prefer to live in the present with knowledge of the past and hope for the future. It's the here and now that is of the most concern to me, however.   


and from KyraofMists
quote:

I am submissive and I expect that I will be required to submit to him to maintain the relationship.  They key though is that I submit on his terms and not on mine. 


Bita and Kyra,
Both your posts gelled some random thoughts I had about this topic.  Perhaps the other end of the spectrum is entitlement.
For sake of the discussion, can we say that the dominant is granted entitlements within the authority dynamic and the submissive is not?
That it is the dominant’s prerogative to bestow or deny privileges to the submissive?
A D/s relationship by its very nature is not balanced.  But each of us must determine for ourselves how far the scale can tip while remaining content and happy. 
If we choose to submit because it is what makes us feel whole, then we do have expectations and hopes regarding how that will happen.



gypsygrl -> RE: More Expectations… (4/10/2008 5:57:04 PM)

quote:

I prefer to keep my thoughts positive


Yeah, it felt kind of depressing as I translated Bita Trouble's comment into my own words.

quote:

  I am capable of dealing with the worst, but  aim for the best.


Its more than just semantics.  Your version contains a sense of your own agency.  I like it better too. :)



ownedgirlie -> RE: More Expectations… (4/10/2008 6:02:42 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: gypsygrl

quote:

I prefer to keep my thoughts positive


Yeah, it felt kind of depressing as I translated Bita Trouble's comment into my own words.

quote:

  I am capable of dealing with the worst, but  aim for the best.


Its more than just semantics.  Your version contains a sense of your own agency.  I like it better too. :)


[:)]

I used to say "prepare for the worst" a lot, and guess what?  The worst always seemed to happen!  So now it's just my thing to change it up a bit and plan for good things...and the change of focus has had me realizing a lot more good than before.  I'm glad you like it.



kyraofMists -> RE: More Expectations… (4/10/2008 6:03:28 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists
She May want a Mustang car... but she knows never to expect it.  I see no value in her having it that would enhance her or help her to thrive.  But yet... she still wants the damn think. 


It's because I know I would look really hot in a little red convertible!!! 

It is to help enhance the beauty of your slave, my Lord  *eg*  but then again for the 6 months or so that it is winter up here, I might just become a popcicle instead.



MasterWilliam55 -> RE: More Expectations… (4/10/2008 6:11:13 PM)

An interesting reply to a thought provoking question. Expectations though come in all shapes and sizes, so-to-speak. I think the nature of "trust" is mainly about expectations. If you believe your Master will treat you fairly and live up to his stated level of committment, then you automatically expect that he will, otherwise, why would you engage in a relationship with him? You "trust" that he will. You expect that he will.

A submissive makes a discission regarding a certain Dominant based on his/her expectations of future behaviour. This cuts both ways. If a sub/slave approaches me indicating she is masochistic then she must expect that as a Sadist I will explore the S&M aspects of our characters. Because S&M behaviour is measured in in degrees, sometimes our expectations over reach what is truly possible with a particular individual. Matching expectations to what is possible, is what this is all about.

Expectations are what we impose on another individual. These often have little to do with how that person is behaving in the present. Rather, our expectations turn on a given word or phrase that we translate as an indication of their character and how we hope they will behave in the future. When they don't live up to those expectations we are disappointed and can even be emotionally hurt.

I suppose the answer can be found in better communications and a better understanding of current behaviour. With communications you have to learn to read between the lines (listen to the words carefully), and clues to future behavour can sometimes be found in current forum posts or by getting references from those that have some experience with an individual.

If you don't do your homework, then the reality will often fall far short of your expectations. Expectations in themselves, are unavoidable. It's when reality doesn't live up the your expectations that you run into trouble.

Base your expectations on a reality based on knowledge. Do people lie? Yes! Do people misrepresent themselves? Yes! Lead with your head, not with your kink.



vampchick88 -> RE: More Expectations… (4/10/2008 6:16:49 PM)

I agree that with trust comes expectations. My past experiences with ‘men’ (I use that term loosely they were boys not men) were that I could not fully trust them or ever rely on them because I would always be let down.
With pet however he has earned my trust though time, my heart, my dominance, and my faith in him. Over time I began to develop expectations from him, things that he does on a regular basis that I enjoy. Opening doors for me, carrying my bags, never overstep boundaries, always remaining honest with me, never questioning my authority when he is asked to do something. He knows that I will never ask him to do something that can or will cause him bodily harm that is not fun or will leave him damaged, and many others. When we first began talking we discussed what he want, likes, dislikes, limits, etc. From there we both began to develop expectations. Its all part of a relationship to know what is expected and to comply. submissives’ do have expectations for who they’re with, they want to be happy and most know exactly what they want or what they’re looking for. Dommes know what they want or what they’re looking for so its an even balance between both worlds. The key is to find someone on the same level as you. I’m luck to have found my happiness.~Lorelei



SimplyMichael -> RE: More Expectations… (4/10/2008 6:23:58 PM)

quote:

Perhaps the other end of the spectrum is entitlement.
For sake of the discussion, can we say that the dominant is granted entitlements within the authority dynamic and the submissive is not?


Brilliant!



kyraofMists -> RE: More Expectations… (4/10/2008 6:52:02 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: colouredin

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists
I am submissive and I expect that I will be required to submit to him to maintain the relationship.  They key though is that I submit on his terms and not on mine.


Devils advocate, would you have been interested in the first place in someone whos idea of submission was that whenever he rang you you would go round to his house and give him a blow job with him? that is your only role, and he doesnt talk to you about anything ever apart from that? What if thats what happened now in your relationship? (I know its far fetched but devils advocate) Dont you therefore have some expectations of him to be diverse and all that jazz? Would you stay  in the relationship indefinatly if that became his indefinate requirements? - Im not picking on you, just wondered.



I am trying to think of  way to express this that doesn't sound like a cop-out of "but he would never do that..."

The main expectation that I am allowed to have is that I will not be intentionally harmed by him and he will not harm our relationship.  To keep me from harm there are certain needs that have to be met to maintain my physical, mental and emotional well-being.  Keeping our relationship from harm means that there are certain things that need to be done as well.

Moving me out of the house and only interacting with me when he wanted a blow-job would mean that I am no longer getting certain needs met within our relationship and the relationship is not getting what it needs in order to survive.  In order for him to make that decision, he would have to remove the expectation that he will not intentionally harm me or our relationship. 

If I can longer expect to be free from harm in my intimate relationship, then I cannot remain in the relationship.  It isn't about expecting diversity.  It is about expecting that I will not be intentionally harmed. 

Knight's Kyra



TreasureKY -> RE: More Expectations… (4/10/2008 6:57:12 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

quote:

Perhaps the other end of the spectrum is entitlement.
For sake of the discussion, can we say that the dominant is granted entitlements within the authority dynamic and the submissive is not?


Brilliant!


lol... Unless you believe that a submissive is entitled to have her basic expectations.

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

... I found it rather odd that when I looked up the word hope in my dictionary, expectation was considered a synonym and that just doesn't seem right at all to me.


As well, "hope" is named as a synonym for "expect".  Like many words, usage helps define the meaning.

But I don't think we're having problems agreeing upon how to define "expectation"; what I think we are have having trouble with is pinning down that there are different types and degrees of expectations that apply to different people and different situations.

For lack of better terminology, I can say I had basic expectations when searching for a suitable partner.  Those are the expectations I formed from both my personal desires and prior experiences that I required compatibility on before I would even consider attempting to develop an intimate relationship.  There aren't many, but they are ones that I'm unwilling and unlikely to ignore.

For example, I expected someone who would become my dominant to be content in a monogamous relationship with me.  I can certainly accept that there are dominants who are not content to be monogamous... I can even appreciate, like, and respect them.  However, on this particular expectation, I am not willing to agree to not having my expectation met.

I wouldn't force my expectation on someone or attempt to change a potential partner... they would just cease to be potential.

It is a hard limit expectation, if you will.

That particular expectation and similar ones don't come into play at all when I encounter those with whom I'm not considering an intimate relationship.  I don't require someone to be monogamous in order to become friends with them. 

Some expectations, however, I consider as soft limit expectations.  These are expectations that are essentially preconceived ideas and not necessarily fundamental to my happiness. 

My previous ficticious example of expecting flowers for my birthday might fall into this category.  I'm not talking about simply wanting to get flowers, or hoping to get flowers... this is an expectation... a belief that I will get flowers for my birthday... no question about it.  I feel that getting flowers from my lover for my birthday is a given.  I always got flowers from previous lovers... my mother got flowers from my father... lovers on tv are always shown to give flowers.  I simply cannot imagine not getting flowers.

Note again, this is a fictitious example.  [;)]

Now, say Firm and I discuss this expectation and he steadfastly opposes it.  I decide that I can live without getting flowers for my birthday and can accept that this expectation will not ever be met.  It doesn't mean that I don't still have the expectation... I might still firmly believe that I should get flowers, but I've agreed to not allow that expectation to interfere with our relationship.

Or, I can decide that it is a silly expectation and let it go.  These kinds of expectations are more mutable... possible to change or eliminate altogether but no one can make me change my expectations nor can they make me give them up.  Influence me, yes; entice me, yes... force  me, no. 

This isn't stubbornness or lack of submissiveness... it's quite simply just part of who I am.  It would be like someone trying to force me to love them.

Of course, I think we can all agree that this discussion could go on and on.  It's quite frankly a complicated subject and easy to understand why there is so little accord.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kyraofMists

... then again for the 6 months or so that it is winter up here, I might just become a popcicle instead.


You could always try tempting him with a little "ice play".  [;)]



catize -> RE: More Expectations… (4/10/2008 7:36:50 PM)

Thank-you! 



tahlly -> RE: More Expectations… (4/11/2008 4:43:47 AM)


Celeste hit on a big issue with me and how I view the word expect/expectations in regards to people and relationships. I believe that much of the disagreement happens because of the way people view the word itself. I see it as a word that leads to disappointment.

If I expect something and it does not happen; I am disappointed. Because of this, I have programmed myself to not expect anything in regards to life, people, and relationships. The word Celeste used was hope…I guess it’s a good word to use for the way I look at things. I hope that my owner will continue to behave in a consistent manner towards me; I hope that I will continue to behave in a consistent manner towards him; I hope that our relationship will continue to be as fulfilling in the future as it is now. The same can be said for me when I apply it to my hobby; or when I apply it to others that I meet throughout my life.

I have no expectations; I do however have hope.



kyraofMists -> RE: More Expectations… (4/11/2008 10:39:08 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

This isn't stubbornness or lack of submissiveness... it's quite simply just part of who I am.  It would be like someone trying to force me to love them.


I think flowers for your birthday is a great example.  Colouredin gave an example that very clearly would result in one partner not getting their needs met and the relationship not getting its needs met.  Those are the easy things to work through.  In that example you can see the logical thought process that we go through in our relationship.  If it is harmful, then I can expect that I will not be required to do it.

Flowers on your birthday is one of those examples that are in a grey area of whether they could be harmful or not.  I can say with a high degree of certainty that it isn't harmful for me, Alandra or him to not get flowers or gifts for our birthdays.  The way we express and perceive love is not through material possessions.  However, if someone were to join our house and the main way they perceived love was through material possessions, I could see harm occuring to them over the long term.  None of us express love materially, so if we do not communicate our love and affection for that person in a way that they can perceive it, then they will end up hurt and it woud harm the relationship. 

Working through and managing expectations on the extreme examples is rather easy.  Managing expectations on other things is not so easy.  What is harmful or needed for one is not for someone else.  What may harm me today, may not harm me tomorrow and vice versa.  These grey areas are what present the challenges in relationships and where many relationships falter.

Hopefully, I expressed my thoughts clearly.  I think this was a great thread and this is one of the topics that I would enjoy seeing more of.

Knight's Kyra



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