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RE: Not age, but gender - 4/10/2008 1:17:18 PM

Missokyst

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I don't question the ability based on age, of either gender. My first dominant was 21 to my 26, and things worked out great. I know more than a few female dominants, some of which are under 30 and rock! LOL I would let them do me if I could stand a females hands on my body. Some of the few I have met, are much more intense than the men I have watched who have ten years on them or more. It is almost like there is a fearlessness in them.
Kyst

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Post #: 21

RE: Not age, but gender - 4/10/2008 1:21:14 PM

Justme696

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I propably get killed for it but ok. I thought the same, Mistresses seem more strict, more controlling etc then their male collegues. I only "think" this because my information is not from experience but from what I read in profiles and hear from sub/slaves and posts in the forum.
IS that because they try hard to be leading here, because in the "vanilla"world it is more accepted for males "to rule"?

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Post #: 22

RE: Not age, but gender - 4/10/2008 1:30:01 PM

Daddyslilpookie

Posts: 498
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From: OC, California
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

I propably get killed for it but ok. I thought the same, Mistresses seem more strict, more controlling etc then their male collegues. I only "think" this because my information is not from experience but from what I read in profiles and hear from sub/slaves and posts in the forum.
IS that because they try hard to be leading here, because in the "vanilla"world it is more accepted for males "to rule"?

Why would you get "killed" meaning flamed that is the way the "vanilla" society is bottom line.

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Post #: 23

RE: Not age, but gender - 4/10/2008 1:31:40 PM

Real_Trouble

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

For some time now, the age debate has been going on at the Ask a Master board. Just recently, the same debate was brought over to the Mistress board as well. Now, to Me, this makes perfect sense. If we are going to ask such questions as "Can a 21 year old be a Master?", we should be asking the parallel of "Can a 21 year old be a Mistress?". It shouldn't change because the subject in question is a different gender.

That got Me thinking about something that was written on another thread:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

Someone calling themselves a submissive or dominant is rarely challenged.
Someone calling themselves a Mistress is not often questioned, unless they ask for tribute.
Someone calling themselves a Master is often questioned or challenged, as are what qualifies them as such or who has the "right" to call themselves such.

It's My personal opinion that this shouldn't be the case. I happen to think that the same standard should apply, whether that Dominant be male or female. If we challenge one gender, we should challenge the other.

So, I wanted to ask the opinions of others. Do we challenge Mistresses less often than Masters? Why or why not? Do we encourage sexism by doing so? Is it harder for a male to be accepted as a Dominant than a female? What are your thoughts?

I definitely would agree that there are a large number of social biases wrapped up in this; I won't start in on that heavily unless anyone is really in the mood for a forty page treatise, but in short:

Yes, we challenge women less than men. Some of the other posters have made some good comments on this as well (I noticed Stephann's in particular, but please don't think that means I didn't think anyone else said something intelligent).

There are multiple components to this from my view; my personal background skews heavily towards cognitive psychology and evolutionary biology, so the first few things I would pull out of my hat are that:

- In general, people tend to trust those who are more similar to them more than those who are less similar; women would be more likely to trust a female dominant than a male dominant. Thus, they are more likely to challenge those they do not trust as much.

- In general, men compete with each other for status, so male doms challenging each other is typically the norm, not the exception.

- In general, social training (with a large degree of inherited bias, as well) tends to have women believing that men are untrustworthy; the reverse is not as emphasized.

- Men, in general, are more likely to want to compete than women, so are more likely to perceive comments as a challenge, and thus react that way and escalate the situation.

Now, these are broad statements; they may very well be false in any individual circumstance, so please do not think I intend these to apply to all people at all times. I do not.

From a personal basis, I have a very strong bias against humans; I tend to believe everyone is full of shit and untrustworthy until proven otherwise, but I'm a cynical misanthrope who doesn't mind being disliked, so I might not be a good "average" point here. Thus, I would be just as likely to challenge a male / female dominant / sub as anyone else; I'm rather indiscriminate in that way.

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Post #: 24

RE: Not age, but gender - 4/10/2008 1:35:48 PM

chamberqueen

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I think that part of why there is a difference in Masters being questioned more than Mistresses, especially by members of the opposite sex, is that if a male sub feels that he is being physically abused he is - in most cases - strong enough to put a stop to it. A naturally submissive woman might have a very hard time getting away from a man who may lose control.

Also, instances of men being sexually abused by a woman are fairly rare, while the opposite is rampant.

One other difference is the ratio of subs to Dom/mes of the opposite gender. There are supposedly 10 males subs to every Mistress - they are desperate (sometimes quite literally) for attention and would rather have poor attention than none at all.

It may not seem fair, but the gender does make a difference.

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Post #: 25

RE: Not age, but gender - 4/10/2008 1:52:04 PM

chaosforge

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maybe it all goes back to that "right of passage" thing stuck in the human brain.
once a female begins to menstrate, no one questions her as a woman.
but the crossing point from boy to man differs family to family, culture to culture.
everyone wants nice visual or tangible proof.
just my thoughts- just phoenix

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Post #: 26

RE: Not age, but gender - 4/10/2008 1:53:29 PM

ToysAndTies

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I'm of the opinion that while a great many men here are genuinely interested in finding lasting bdsm relationships (from friendships to wives or owners) there are 10:1 that are just here to get laid. In the same token, I believe there are a huge number of females here, tops and bottoms, looking to find life partners, stableboys, husbands, etc, but a bunch more that are trying to make a quick buck with a "money slave" or "cuck" that they really don't give a damn about.

It's simple math. As another poster said, women tend to be the sexual gatekeepers in hetero settings. This is because whether they try or not, have long profiles, one liners, or none at all, post photos or don't, they will still be inundated with a never-ending deluge of flattery, entreaties, and interest. Every woman that I have ever met in person with a CM account complains about the unending spam, even after hiding / blocking hundreds of users.

Women are generally socialized from an early age to trust other women more than men. We separate the bathrooms and remind them, "no boys here; they're trouble." Then, on to college, where men and women are separated by room, by floor, or even by building, to keep those dangerous men away from the innocent and defenseless women. PS I don't believe women are defenseless, my 5'5" gf at the time (a switch) was assaulted while getting into her car, and with her purse and spiked leather heels, fought off four men considerably larger than her, and put three in the hospital for stitches and surgery. However, is it so hard to believe that that hesitance and discomfort with trusting males lasts on through adulthood?

For the most part, women that I know who have lived with male roommates or housemates seem to be the most trusting of guys, because they know what we're like 24/7. For those without brothers or that glimpse of personality, men are nympho pigs that abhor condoms, beat off 10x a day to porn, and are messy.

As for behavior, I think it's one of illusion versus reality. Female dommes have to put on a bigger show, to appear larger than life and give the impression of being in absolute control. Male doms generally do not seem as rough or aggressive. In my opinion, this is because of what's understood without words: in general, a male will be stronger and better able to defend himself / attack a woman. Barring martial arts knowledge and availability of devilishly long nails that can gauge out eyes, I'd say this is for the most part a true statement.

Surely some people will disagree, but that's the point of a forum. End points: women trust women far more than they trust men inherently, desperate men give bitchy women more authority than they would deserve in an IRL encounter, and male's don't bark as much because they can bite harder. Thoughts?

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Post #: 27

RE: Not age, but gender - 4/10/2008 2:25:44 PM

LadyPact

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

quote:

So, I wanted to ask the opinions of others. Do we challenge Mistresses less often than Masters? Why or why not? Do we encourage sexism by doing so? Is it harder for a male to be accepted as a Dominant than a female? What are your thoughts?

I think in the same thread is said;

"why would one care"

and strict females are scary , they remind us of teachers. We respect them.....from a distance :P

For the purpose of the thread, I'm wondering if a Domme is more accepted at face value, than a Dom would be.

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Post #: 28

RE: Not age, but gender - 4/10/2008 2:30:51 PM

Real_Trouble

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quote:

ORIGINAL: chamberqueen

Also, instances of men being sexually abused by a woman are fairly rare, while the opposite is rampant.

While I do not necessarily disagree with this, you should make this statement carefully; male on female sexual attacks have a rate of report that is several magnitudes higher than the reverse. Likewise, because our laws are far more severe regarding physical abuse rather than emotional / psychological abuse, the various tools of the legal trade tend to favor men being caught and punished more readily than women.

This is not to say men are not the more prolific offenders (they very likely are!), but that you should not take the statistics at face value thanks to their definitions and the large social stigma of males reporting assaults or sexual assaults that lead to potential significant under-representation of incidents.

So, in short, I agree men abusing women is rampant, but I'm not sure I would classify women abusing men as "fairly rare" without more rigorous information... which we currently do not have, sadly.

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Post #: 29

RE: Not age, but gender - 4/10/2008 4:05:16 PM

LuckyAlbatross

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Are there different sets of standards based on gender? Absolutely, I'd think that would be obvious.

Do I think any one gender group gets more challenged than another on their use of labels? No.

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Post #: 30

RE: Not age, but gender - 4/10/2008 4:21:34 PM

ownedgirlie

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Take the age factor out of it for a moment. What I'm curious to know is do we have two different standards for male and female dominants?

I believe there are different standards. It's that Venus/Mars thing. The X chromosome has different "general" characteristics than the Y. Just like female and male subs differ from each other (in general terms). I think the issue is that men and women are different, no matter their orientation.

As for your later question of whether a Domme is more accepted at face value, I would disagree and say she is not, and likely up against a lot more skepticism.

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Post #: 31

RE: Not age, but gender - 4/10/2008 5:13:15 PM

Prinsexx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

For some time now, the age debate has been going on at the Ask a Master board. Just recently, the same debate was brought over to the Mistress board as well. Now, to Me, this makes perfect sense. If we are going to ask such questions as "Can a 21 year old be a Master?", we should be asking the parallel of "Can a 21 year old be a Mistress?". It shouldn't change because the subject in question is a different gender.

That got Me thinking about something that was written on another thread:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Padriag

Someone calling themselves a submissive or dominant is rarely challenged.
Someone calling themselves a Mistress is not often questioned, unless they ask for tribute.
Someone calling themselves a Master is often questioned or challenged, as are what qualifies them as such or who has the "right" to call themselves such.

It's My personal opinion that this shouldn't be the case. I happen to think that the same standard should apply, whether that Dominant be male or female. If we challenge one gender, we should challenge the other.

So, I wanted to ask the opinions of others. Do we challenge Mistresses less often than Masters? Why or why not? Do we encourage sexism by doing so? Is it harder for a male to be accepted as a Dominant than a female? What are your thoughts?

It's just genderism whichever way you look at it.
Which is weird as there is both gender and gender orientation to mess that little duality up.
I mean what about the T'Vs and the T G's and the chicks with dicks and the sissy slut (in or out of training) and the lady boys and the bois and the goyls and the Zen masters and mistresses (in joke).
Look; legislation will soon allow those who state their gender orientation to enter the prison of their choice here in the UK.
Soon, hopefully, we will be allowed to enter the military services according to gender orientation (I'm serious brothers)....then that'll give the fundamentalists yet another decade of pointless debate.
What we have between our legs is surely less important than what we have between our ears unless your a complete 'dick head' (English colloquialism for minus IQ). Is there a genderised equivalent for that?????
It's still a jerry Springer freak show life isn't it once you come out of the closet labelled NORM.
I really don't have a switch that takes me from hetero sub female slave to alpha domme lesbian, anymore than I do a switch than makes my hair grow longer like some friggin barbie Doll.
And what's this with the daddies? I can and do accept that a young stud can Master me.....why I got my eyes on one on collarme as we speak......
Rant over......time for bed.
ed to add:
A dick might be bigger than my clit but my corpus callosum is thicker than most men's. Given that its the superyway of the brain that allows me to multi task I can clean the cave, lactate the younguns and keep the fire going at the same time. Just because the bear liked to stake me to the ground for fear of losing me when he went out hunting a few million years ago meant I simply had time for my brain to evolve.......i can win at any gender debate ou want to give me. I'm a feminist slave ok?

< Message edited by Prinsexx -- 4/10/2008 5:18:56 PM >

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Post #: 32

RE: Not age, but gender - 4/10/2008 5:27:51 PM

ResidentSadist

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quote:

ORIGINAL: BOUNTYHUNTER
...I believe in taking someone on face value unless they have been proven to be a fraud,,,What say all of you...bounty

Fortunately, sometimes face value (prima facie) is obvious fraud.

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Post #: 33

RE: Not age, but gender - 4/10/2008 5:54:48 PM

PsyVamp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Leatherist

Let me rephrase-no intelligent and practical male sub would dare to offend one.

I am NOT touching that one....
Nope, not going there at all... ROFLMAO

LadyPact,
I take everyone with a grain of salt no matter the gender. Last time I was at Paddles, a young woman identifying as dominant was there- she couldn't have been more than 21 but she identified as new and admitted she didn't know what she liked and was trying out things here and there and watching the more experienced.. She reminded me of the energizer bunny, swear. *smiles*
I don't think I've ever had the same conversation with a young male dominant. No matter how young they look, none of those I met ever gave off the essence of "newness" and when they asked questions of any presenter, they usually kept an informational tone to the voice.

I question anybody, no matter how old they are, how they came about their knowledge or feelings. Of course they can lie, in fact, because this is the 'net, I often think most people are lying. *sighs*

I probably take people more seriously when I know they post on the forums and their answers have some seriousness at times.

-Lady Jag

< Message edited by PsyVamp -- 4/10/2008 5:55:17 PM >

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Post #: 34

RE: Not age, but gender - 4/10/2008 8:07:04 PM

DesFIP

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If we have pretty much decided, as one camp has, that 20 year olds don't have enough life experience, ability to get into another's mind to be a master/mistress; then why is it that we don't say the same about 20 year old subs? Can a 20 year old have enough self awareness to know enough about themselves that they can share it with their dom/me? Do they have enough personal power to be able to give it over? Or is it just kinky sex and they feel it's cooler to call themselves subs/slaves and not bottoms?

Why should only one half of the slash be looked upon askance as a result of age?

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Post #: 35

RE: Not age, but gender - 4/10/2008 8:21:47 PM

ELUSIVE1

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I have a problem thinking of anyone as a 'Master' unless they have mastered a skill to the point that they present to groups on a national or international level...as for the little girls playing dress up callig themselves 'Goddesses' etc...hey, just because they put it out there doesn't mean you have to buy into it...really anyone want to buy a bridge?...

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Post #: 36

RE: Not age, but gender - 4/10/2008 8:29:53 PM

Real_Trouble

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DesFIP

If we have pretty much decided, as one camp has, that 20 year olds don't have enough life experience, ability to get into another's mind to be a master/mistress; then why is it that we don't say the same about 20 year old subs? Can a 20 year old have enough self awareness to know enough about themselves that they can share it with their dom/me? Do they have enough personal power to be able to give it over? Or is it just kinky sex and they feel it's cooler to call themselves subs/slaves and not bottoms?

Why should only one half of the slash be looked upon askance as a result of age?

I would suggest this is not nearly as popular a view as you make it out to be. Rather, there's probably no point in arguing about it if you disagree. People tend to hold strongly to dogmatic views of any sort, even in the face of counter-evidence; some arguments are not worth having, because it's more of a "shouting at a brick wall" match in the end.

Speaking from personal experience, I have seen no strong correlation between age and personal ability / maturity / fit for a BDSM relationship. I know old people who are disasters and old people who do quite well, and I know young people who are disasters and young people who do quite well.

So, in short, my answer to everything of this sort is "it depends". There are macro level trends, but unless you are meeting a large and statistically significant representative sample of Doms or subs in one evening, I wouldn't put too much weight on them...

Bottom line: it depends. Keep your eyes open.

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Post #: 37

RE: Not age, but gender - 4/11/2008 8:34:24 AM

LadyHibiscus

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ELUSIVE1

I have a problem thinking of anyone as a 'Master' unless they have mastered a skill to the point that they present to groups on a national or international level...as for the little girls playing dress up callig themselves 'Goddesses' etc...hey, just because they put it out there doesn't mean you have to buy into it...really anyone want to buy a bridge?...

So, only 2% (or thereabouts) of us are Real Twue? Well, that certainly takes the pressure off!

I've only presented on a regional level, so I am a rank amateur!

There are a lot of folks out there who don't think that women can be or are dominant at all, therefore see female dominants as not even worthy of consideration. Why question someone that you don't feel is genuine anyway?

I am with Celeste, why is it that only dominants have to have acres of real life maturity experience wisdom and the washer/dryer living room suite? Yes, we are doing potentially dangerous things at times, but shouldn't an adult be able to decide that it's okay to extend that trust to another person?

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Post #: 38

RE: Not age, but gender - 4/11/2008 1:47:06 PM

ELUSIVE1

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This was written in 12/06 by my good friend Rusty Farmer who presents nationally and is very active in the lifestyle in the southeast..[I asked his permission before I pasted this]...knowing people like him makes me look twice, or three times at people giving themselves titles...oh and the men I know that have been in the life for daggone ever, and write for Leather Magazine, among other accolades...guess what, they don't require the use of Master, M'Lord or Sir...and because of that, I respect them more and use Sir...

'In S/m play you literally are placing your life in your Dom/Domme's hands. You have to trust that they know what they are doing.

Would you trust someone to wrap their hands around your throat and cover your mouth and nose if they were totally inexperienced at breath play?

Would you let somebody who had only read about it on the Internet pierce your body with needles, or do labia or scrotum injections?

Would you let a novice cover your back in alcohol and set fire to you without them being properly trained on fire play?

These are all easy examples. All but the dumbest of submissives would see the dangers and say no.

But what about D/s? Do you require the same experience and knowledge from your Dom/Domme for your general submission as you do for extreme edge play? Why or why not?

How do you totally submit to someone so out of control of their personal life that bill collectors are calling and interrupting your time?

How do you totally submit to someone who can only get out of their parents house a couple times a month?

Better yet, how do you totally submit to a married Dom who claims to have a vanilla spouse? If he can't control his own house and wife, how is it that he will be able to control you?

How to you totally submit to a Domme who demands your money? Prostitution is a noble profession. Don't mistake yourself with what it is you are buying.

A Dom/Domme should be in absolute control of their own life before they even attempt to take control of yours. Do yourself a favor and look past the leather vests and toy bags and see the person behind the persona. Is this person, unmasked, someone you would trust your life to? Follow your gut on this one. If there is even the slightest of rumblings, keep looking.'

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Post #: 39

RE: Not age, but gender - 4/11/2008 1:58:51 PM

ELUSIVE1

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One more of his articles from the Magazine..this one is more aimed at the very young that think they are prepared..again, I asked his permission to reprint this

Are you prepared.

Are you prepared to deal with the welts and bruises your hands and toys may bring?

Are you prepared to handle accidentally cutting open the flesh with your toys, either from your bad aim or the submissive moving? Even if the scars never heal?

Are you prepared for the accidental breaking of a bone?

Are you prepared for the accidental burning of the flesh?

Are you prepared for accidentally putting out an eye, rupturing a vital organ?

Are you prepared for your submissive to pass out?

Are you prepared for your submissive to freak out?

Are you prepared for your submissive to go insane? To the point of commitment?

Are you prepared for a suicidal submissive? A successful suicidal submissive?

Are you prepared to put back all the pieces?

Will you act calmly when any of these disasters occur? Rationally? Quickly?

How versed are you in first aid?

Will you panic yourself at the sight of your submissive's blood?

Will you watch your submissive burn, or will you cover her with your own body to extinguish the flames?

Do you know the number to 911? Are you sure?

Can you deal with yourself when you accidentally hurt yourself? Hurt them badly? If they are scarred forever?

Do you really believe that accidents won't happen to you?

Or do you to expect them? Because you know they will happen no matter how hard you try to make a scene safe, no matter how experienced you are, not matter how many times you have done the same thing before? Is your guard always up? Are you always on your game?

Do you realize how fucking dangerous this all is?

A split second, an inch too far with a whip will slice someone open, disfigure them for life, or put out eyes in an instant.

Two inches too high with a paddle will break a tailbone. Months of intense pain and rehab for the submissive. Have you ever gotten so wrapped up in a scene where you could miss by only 2 inches?

A wrap over the shoulder with a heavy flogger can snap a collar bone in an instant. How perfect is your aim? Drop that same heavy flogger too low and the submissive will be pissing blood from the bruised kidney. Just how good are you? Can you keep your concentration up when the submissive has an orgasm? Will your excitement alter your aim?

Did you look to see where the air vents were the last time you played with fire? Why not? You know what a quick burst of wind can do to a flame don't you? Do you like the smell of burning flesh?

What happens when you take the play piercing out and blood shoots 10 feet in the air? Are you ready for this? Can you handle your submissive's panic when you go through an artery instead of muscle or skin?

What are you going to do when the submissive starts bawling in the middle of a scene? Crying so hard he/she can't, won't talk? What if this goes on for over an hour, what are you going to do?

If you split their ass open with a cane or pull a nipple halfway off with a clip, are you going to use a Band-Aid or are you going to take them to the hospital? What are you going to say if you have to show up at a hospital with a submissive? Have you ever given that any thought?

What if the submissive has a total breakdown? Are you going to take her to the hospital for that? Will you wait in the lobby for her? For days? Are you prepared to do whatever it takes to keep a despondent submissive from taking their own life? Will you be there to explain things to their parents if you can't stop it?

Have you thought about any of this? Are you really prepared to be a Dominant?

@Rusty Farmer Jan 2007

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