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RE: Not age, but gender - 4/11/2008 2:47:54 PM

lanie38

Posts: 120
Joined: 9/14/2007
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I think there's a comaraderie amongst women. As a result of being the oppressed sex, up until fairly recent history, I believe it quite naturally lent itself to give as a result a *you go girl* sort of attitude regardless of whether you're a sub, slave, Domme, switch...

Men seem much more competitive, I don't the same kind of banding together that women demonstrate...although I think attitudes are changing..

< Message edited by lanie38 -- 4/11/2008 2:48:45 PM >

_____________________________

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(in reply to ELUSIVE1)

Post #: 41

RE: Not age, but gender - 4/12/2008 6:32:47 PM

biotch

Posts: 4
Joined: 3/23/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ELUSIVE1

This was written in 12/06 by my good friend Rusty Farmer who presents nationally and is very active in the lifestyle in the southeast..[I asked his permission before I pasted this]...knowing people like him makes me look twice, or three times at people giving themselves titles...oh and the men I know that have been in the life for daggone ever, and write for Leather Magazine, among other accolades...guess what, they don't require the use of Master, M'Lord or Sir...and because of that, I respect them more and use Sir...

'In S/m play you literally are placing your life in your Dom/Domme's hands. You have to trust that they know what they are doing.

Would you trust someone to wrap their hands around your throat and cover your mouth and nose if they were totally inexperienced at breath play?

Would you let somebody who had only read about it on the Internet pierce your body with needles, or do labia or scrotum injections?

Would you let a novice cover your back in alcohol and set fire to you without them being properly trained on fire play?

These are all easy examples. All but the dumbest of submissives would see the dangers and say no.

But what about D/s? Do you require the same experience and knowledge from your Dom/Domme for your general submission as you do for extreme edge play? Why or why not?

How do you totally submit to someone so out of control of their personal life that bill collectors are calling and interrupting your time?

How do you totally submit to someone who can only get out of their parents house a couple times a month?

Better yet, how do you totally submit to a married Dom who claims to have a vanilla spouse? If he can't control his own house and wife, how is it that he will be able to control you?

How to you totally submit to a Domme who demands your money? Prostitution is a noble profession. Don't mistake yourself with what it is you are buying.

A Dom/Domme should be in absolute control of their own life before they even attempt to take control of yours. Do yourself a favor and look past the leather vests and toy bags and see the person behind the persona. Is this person, unmasked, someone you would trust your life to? Follow your gut on this one. If there is even the slightest of rumblings, keep looking.'

I met him at a CAPEX event. Thank you for posting this, I am new and this is great.

(in reply to ELUSIVE1)

Post #: 42

RE: Not age, but gender - 4/13/2008 7:29:39 AM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

I just wanted to thank everyone who participated (and hopefully will continue to participate) in the thread. Especially those who could look at the question and see that it didn't have anything to do with age, and was focused on gender.

BTW, those two postings of Farmer's articles would have been fabulous in those respective age threads. Elusive, I'd be most interested to see what some of the responses would have been if they were.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to biotch)

Post #: 43

RE: Not age, but gender - 4/13/2008 8:35:47 AM

Lordandmaster

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Joined: 6/22/2004
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I don't agree with that. Women can do some absolutely vicious and cruel things to other women, and competition (especially sexual competition) has to be part of it. Being the "oppressed sex," as you put it, can play itself out in different ways. There's the "let's band together because it's our best defense against oppression" attitude, and there's also the "who the fuck does she think she is, the rest of us are toiling, why does she deserve any better?" attitude.

quote:

ORIGINAL: lanie38

Men seem much more competitive

(in reply to lanie38)

Post #: 44

RE: Not age, but gender - 4/13/2008 4:35:22 PM

lanie38

Posts: 120
Joined: 9/14/2007
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Hmmm..perhaps...but I was speaking specifically of women's attitudes towards females Doms...including other Dommes...I don't see the same attitude with male Doms directed at other Doms...

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Don't be so humble...you're not that great. ~ Golda Meir

(in reply to Lordandmaster)

Post #: 45

RE: Not age, but gender - 4/13/2008 5:45:49 PM

KnightofMists

Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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I have met many of both genders that call themselves as Dominant or submissive... some even identify themselves as Master, slave, switch. Frankly the self-labels have very little meaning to me.

What does matter.. is the character that they demonstrate.

For example.....
A Kind person is much more appealling than a Mean person.
A Humorous person is much more appealing than a Dull person.
A Intelligent person s much more appealling than an Stupid person.
A Open-minded person is much more appealling than a Close-minded person.

The simple fact... they are not Dominant to me... or Submissive to me. They are but a person... a person with positive and/or negative characteristics. I will weight the balance of it and decide if the person is worthy of my time.. regardless of their self-imposed label.

_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 46

RE: Not age, but gender - 4/13/2008 7:04:24 PM

Evility

Posts: 915
Joined: 12/19/2007
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Yes, I think male dominants are challenged more often than their female counterparts. The way I see it, the whole F/m dynamic is entirely different than the M/f dynamic. Maybe that is due to supply and demand. There are seemingly so few female dominants per male submissive that competition is keen. Perhaps the male submissive community have to be very careful about their criticism lest they spoil their chances to find a female dominant. The tail just doesn't seem to wag the dog on the other side of the fence they way that it does over here.

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 47

RE: Not age, but gender - 4/13/2008 7:14:36 PM

Evility

Posts: 915
Joined: 12/19/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ELUSIVE1

This was written in 12/06 by my good friend Rusty Farmer

'Better yet, how do you totally submit to a married Dom who claims to have a vanilla spouse? If he can't control his own house and wife, how is it that he will be able to control you?'

I'm not too sure I'd put much value into the ramblings of anyone who is so shortsighted to say something like this. So if someone has an arrangement worked out with their kinky spouse then they have their act together but someone with a vanilla spouse and the same arrangement does not?

(in reply to ELUSIVE1)

Post #: 48

RE: Not age, but gender - 4/13/2008 7:29:39 PM

rook42

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Joined: 10/2/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: chamberqueen

Also, instances of men being sexually abused by a woman are fairly rare, while the opposite is rampant.

This would make sense, since this is a pretty widespread perception. (Think the reality will take a while to surface. The reporting bias on female vs. male victim assault seems like it could be pretty big.)

Pact... As far as the effect of age on this gender gap, what are male/female dominants expected to BE? What are their obligations? I think if you look at the expectations for both, they are not the same. Hence why the genders might experience different treatment. How many emphasize the motherly/nurturing aspect of a female in play, as compared to the fatherly/nurturing aspect of a male? How many emphasize these aspects as necessities for a REAL dominant of either gender? How many female dominants(vs male) would be expected to provide financial support as a matter of course to a long term partner? There almost seems to be a gap in the expectation of responsibility.

Also... As silly as this sounds, and I could be a mile off... unrelated to age, don't think people see female dominants as as much of a threat to their own dominance/masculinity. The less softspoken the female dominant though, or the more masculine(God forbid her dick is bigger than yours!), the more likely I think they're seen as a potential threat. People will find any excuse to attack(No, it doesn't have to be malicious or conscious) those that they think jeopardize their own personal power... age works the same as safety, physical appearance, or any other avenue to try to justify a lower spot on the totem pole.

(in reply to chamberqueen)

Post #: 49

RE: Not age, but gender - 4/13/2008 9:07:58 PM

Arrrchibald

Posts: 350
Joined: 1/3/2008
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IMO guys just complain less.

Especially to ladies they're trying to bone.

(in reply to rook42)

Post #: 50

RE: Not age, but gender - 4/13/2008 9:14:00 PM

Noah

Posts: 1660
Joined: 7/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact

Take the age factor out of it for a moment. What I'm curious to know is do we have two different standards for male and female dominants?

You say take the age factor out but the age factor would be the very thing that validates a double-standard here, if indeed anything does.

Consider that women are on average less tall than men. If someone cared to compute an average height for people it would be fine to name a single height as the average for all men and women. It would be just as fine and in fact more informative to compute an average height for men and a separate (but lesser) average height for women simply because men and women tend as groups to differ in height systematically.

I have no data to either prove or rule out that women mature (to some arbitrary level of Domcompetence) faster than men do. It might well be the case. If it is the case then at certain ages dom-competent women might be common and dom-competent men scarce. Accordingly scepticism about the dom-competence of a man at that age might reasonably be significantly higher.

There is nothing inherently evil or even unfair about double standards in general. Sometimes a single standard is patently inadequate. Particular double standards might be unfair, sure.

If a double standard does tend to hold in our minds on this topic is it a good double standard or a bad one? I sure don't know. Might be well supported by the facts and very helpful.

I've yet to see anyone present a credible set of facts sufficient to decide the issue. Those contending for such a double standard could credibly point to data suggesting strongly that in various other ways females do mature more quickly than males. This would certainly not be conclusive but taken together with other factors itmight well have probative value.

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 51

RE: Not age, but gender - 4/13/2008 9:36:17 PM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

Evillity, you make a couple of excellent points. I do tend to agree about the comment of the Dominant with a vanilla spouse. My husband and I have a vanilla marriage to a certain extent. Of course, I wouldn't exactly call him vanilla anymore, but there is no power exchange in it.

Also, I tend to agree with the supply and demand theory. It's unfortunate, but the generalizations of ratio of Dommes to male subs doesn't seem to be anywhere near the ratio of Doms to female subs. It seems to tilt the scale in favor of females, on either side of the kneel quite heavily. I'm not especially sure if it is quite so unbalanced in the world as it is compared to the net, but it does seem to exist.

Rook142, in the places I've posted where the question has been related to age, rather than gender, I've been very vocal on the fact that I *do* think the responsibilities should be the same. Yes, the whole ball of wax, so to speak. The fact that I wasn't born with a flesh and blood penis (though I'll certainly have fun with the 'Mine is bigger than yours' when it comes to strap-on conversations), I see My duty as the same. That doesn't change just because My 'dick' is detachable. I hold Myself accountable to the same standard that My male counterparts do.

As this thread has progressed, more than once, I've wondered if I should have questioned another factor, and that is Topping. Bear in mind that I'm using the term "Top" in a play sense only. It would be My opinion that female Tops are absolutely less scrutinized than their male counterparts. I can tell you that, as a woman, I can walk into any club, and have no issue finding play partners. Even if they've never seen Me play before, and have no clue whether or not I know what I'm doing. If I were a man, I know it would not be the same.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to rook42)

Post #: 52

RE: Not age, but gender - 4/14/2008 10:33:23 AM

ELUSIVE1

Posts: 536
Joined: 9/11/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Evility

quote:

ORIGINAL: ELUSIVE1

This was written in 12/06 by my good friend Rusty Farmer

'Better yet, how do you totally submit to a married Dom who claims to have a vanilla spouse? If he can't control his own house and wife, how is it that he will be able to control you?'

I'm not too sure I'd put much value into the ramblings of anyone who is so shortsighted to say something like this. So if someone has an arrangement worked out with their kinky spouse then they have their act together but someone with a vanilla spouse and the same arrangement does not?

I actually agree with him 100%...not into married cheaters

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(in reply to Evility)

Post #: 53

RE: Not age, but gender - 4/14/2008 10:46:44 AM

manwholuvs

Posts: 30
Joined: 1/1/2008
Status: offline

In my opinion age is not the issue at all nor is gender. The key is the level of maturity and strength and that comes to each person differently. Some may mature at an earlier age than others and some seem to never quite get there. At the same time confidence and strength develop differently in each of us. We are each unique and develop differently which is what makes the exploration and journey so wonderful. Finding and exploring and pushing the envelope results in growth and development for each of us.

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Respectfully
Manwholuvs

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 54

RE: Not age, but gender - 4/14/2008 11:14:18 AM

felicitousdove

Posts: 45
Joined: 8/7/2006
From: Indiana
Status: offline

quote:

Do we challenge Mistresses less often than Masters? Why or why not? Do we encourage sexism by doing so? Is it harder for a male to be accepted as a Dominant than a female? What are your thoughts?

I think it does encourgae sexism. Yes, unfortunately many times it is harder for a male to be accepted than it is for a female. Perhpas largely in part, because of all of the negative publicity, when BDSM does hit the news. It is often a male dominant who has abused or killed his partner/s. One seldom if ever hears of either a. An abusive female dominant in the news, or b. Anything that will shed BDSM in a possitive light, in the news or media.

Personally, i think that if one would question or challenege a male dominant and ask for his credentials and refferences, one would also do the same with a female dominant. Regardless of gender- if someone has you tied up up and gagged in a vlunerable possition, wouldn't it be best to KNOW ther person and whether or not they are safe? Why would the fact that a person has a vagina instead of a penis, cause one to assume that person is safer to be with?

_____________________________

"I have often heard the phrse: ‘Sub/slaves are a reflection of their Dominants.’ So if our Dominants are strong, assertive, decisive, fully capable human beings, why should we as slaves be any different?"
~felicitous dove {MH}

(in reply to LadyPact)

Post #: 55

RE: Not age, but gender - 4/14/2008 11:37:38 AM

apettiger

Posts: 131
Joined: 1/15/2007
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as a bisexual submissive, i question any Top/Dom/me/Master/Mistress i may have the opprotunity to serve because i MUST trust Them. unless i ask questions and they are answered to my satisfaction, how can i feel comfortable allowing Someone to rend me helpless and keep me safe in potentially dangerous situations?
age nor gender should cause S/someone to neglect to question a potential Top/Dom/me/Master/Mistress about Their skills, nor should it encourage more intense questioning.

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(in reply to Justme696)

Post #: 56

RE: Not age, but gender - 4/19/2008 8:11:01 AM

Evility

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Joined: 12/19/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ELUSIVE1
I actually agree with him 100%...not into married cheaters.

Well, of course you do. He makes sweeping assumptioins. You do, as well. I would expect the two of you to be of like mind.

(in reply to ELUSIVE1)

Post #: 57

RE: Not age, but gender - 4/19/2008 8:45:21 AM

LadyPact

Posts: 32566
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: ELUSIVE1
I actually agree with him 100%...not into married cheaters.

Might want to be careful with that particular one. Especially since no one is making the distinction between cheating and poly.

_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to Evility)

Post #: 58

RE: Not age, but gender - 4/19/2008 2:08:14 PM

AMaster

Posts: 814
Joined: 8/4/2005
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I agree, gender should not enter into it.

(in reply to Justme696)

Post #: 59

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