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Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authority T... - 4/12/2008 10:59:24 AM   
hejira92


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Joined: 10/27/2005
From: Palm Beach County, Fl
Status: offline 		Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authority Transfer
 
This is how (the brilliant) KnightofMists (with apologies to kyra) described his relationship in another thread (are doms so insecure...)
 
This struck me as so much better than Master/slave or Dominant/submissive to describe my relationship that I wanted to bring it more attention and get everyone's opinion as to if it was apropos to anyone else.
 
When we first got together, Master and I had very different definitions of slave. I saw it as owned and cared for, He saw it as less-than-a-person-not a long term love relationship. I considered myself a slave; he wanted a sub. I thought a sub was a bedroom designation and I sought the over-all control of a Master. You can see the conflict.
 
So, we compromised- I am His property, totally owned and collared, but I am His sub. (Yet, I call Him Master.)
 
Then, I hit upon power exchange and TPE. I liked this. But, in real life, is anything ever total?
 
I don't feel powerless in this relationship. My opinions and feelings matter greatly; I am involved and considered in everything. Often, my needs (non-sexual) take precedence (His decision). But, if there is a conflict- He makes the final choice- no question.  He cares for and guides me, like a parent sometimes. I do submit to His will in all matters. =Authority Transfer
 
And it's not as if I only get off on giving up power. As a matter of fact, I get off more on feeling HIS power radiating out of Him. So, the more I submit, the more power I get to feel from Him = Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic. It is like a positive feedback loop of power between us. (lovely. sigh.) 
 
Before this, the best we could accept was WIITWD. That seemed vague enough to cover us specifically. But it doesn't really say anything about what it is we DO in the dynamic. The longer we are together, the more real stuff we have to deal with, less fantasy. But it still works; it still is the most fulfilled either of us has ever been- because of the basic, agreed upon dynamic.
 
We really don't NEED a label. But, I think the human condition (and our limitations) forces us to keep seeking. That's why so many threads go on and on about them. We need to define ourselves within the context of others', so we continue to seek absolutes.
 
That's all. What do you think?
 
 
 

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RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/12/2008 11:11:55 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


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Status: offline 		I call first on "authority transfer" ;)

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RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/12/2008 11:15:25 AM   
hejira92


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From: Palm Beach County, Fl
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I call first on "authority transfer" ;)



But does that cover the sexual power exchange?

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RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/12/2008 11:41:39 AM   
Floggings4You


Posts: 240
Joined: 12/18/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: hejira92

Before this, the best we could accept was WIITWD.
 
That seemed vague enough to cover us specifically. But it doesn't really say anything about what it is we DO in the dynamic.
 
The longer we are together, the more real stuff we have to deal with, less fantasy. But it still works; it still is the most fulfilled either of us has ever been- because of the basic, agreed upon dynamic.
 
We really don't NEED a label. But, I think the human condition (and our limitations) forces us to keep seeking. That's why so many threads go on and on about them. We need to define ourselves within the context of others', so we continue to seek absolutes.
 
That's all. What do you think?


While some people surely do need to define themselves (and/or what they do) within the context of others' (and/ or others' experiences) I certainly can't see that as a universal human need. 
 
(Also, if you are defining your own experiences against others', the definition is not at all any sort of absolute.  Philosophically, absolutes are not based on empirical data.  An absolute definition would not be based on any comparison of your experience as contrasted with/against anyone else's experience.
 
Idealism (the belief in philosophical absolutes) and empiricism (reliance on factual data) are incompatible epistemologies. 
 
Absolutes, if they exist, exist independently, context-free.  (Personally, this is the reason I don't like absolutes; I prefer empiricism.)
 
Lastly, definitions are fine--if you aren't (or can't be) sure that those with whom you wish to communicate have experienced whatever it is you're referring to with your label(s).
 
But, if you are dealing with those with whom you have mutual, shared experience, then everyone is very familiar with the 'territory'...
 
...and no label--no 'map'--should be necessary...  

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RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/12/2008 11:43:55 AM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I call first on "authority transfer" ;)


I second that.   It was the best descriptor that I have ever heard of the way decision making occurs in my relationships.  It was my descriptor.... but I am not ashamed of stealing it for my use.

but I will call first on "PER"

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RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/12/2008 2:29:17 PM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
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Status: offline 		I am "Old Per"...

Actually, this thread shows how wonderful the many posters here on CM are... great stuff!

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RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/12/2008 2:44:56 PM   
MladyHathor


Posts: 510
Joined: 4/6/2008
Status: offline 		I love PER but authority transfer spoke to Me, volumes as I try to put some definition, some framework around how I see My life with a "someone"---I am going to shamelessly add it to My profile---uhm is it ok if I don't credit a Dom with it?
 
smiles, authority transfer----I like that allot.

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RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/12/2008 3:11:29 PM   
Poetryinpain


Posts: 341
Joined: 3/20/2008
Status: offline 		You all do realize that it's going to become PERDAT, right? And I am going to add it to my profile, too, as it fits perfectly the kind of relationship I am looking for. It's not as 'total' as TPE, but it's not a 'top and bottom' loosely-defined dynamic.

Thank you KnightofMists and Kyra for coming up with that term.

pip, PERDAT-able

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RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/12/2008 3:12:28 PM   
Justme696


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Joined: 1/7/2008
From: Royal kingdom of the Netherlands
Status: offline 		mmmm
I never tried to describe the relation type I have. PErsonally I don't see a need for it. I just am in a relation, because I love some one..that is a sub.
But it is good to see so many people recoqnize themselfs in the words.


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RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/12/2008 3:21:39 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


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Joined: 10/25/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: MladyHathor
I love PER but authority transfer spoke to Me, volumes as I try to put some definition, some framework around how I see My life with a "someone"---I am going to shamelessly add it to My profile---uhm is it ok if I don't credit a Dom with it?

smiles, authority transfer----I like that allot.

LOL well considering I was a slave when I first grasped it from a discussion on an old defunct yahoogroup, and now I'm a switch, (Knight stole it from me the cheeky canuck), I'd say that's fine :)

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RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/12/2008 3:37:40 PM   
Noah


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Joined: 7/5/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I call first on "authority transfer" ;)


I second that.   It was the best descriptor that I have ever heard of the way decision making occurs in my relationships.  It was my descriptor.... but I am not ashamed of stealing it for my use.

but I will call first on "PER"


I think it is a fine term, What I wonder about is the discomfort some people seem to have felt which was allayed by the finding/coining of this term.

When asking oneself, approximately: "What should we call this? What should we call this?" I think one very good response would be to note that some discomfort is present at the absence of an agreed-upon term. Full stop.

The we can pause to look around and ask whether anything cries out for fixing.

I mean we all say that the sun comes up in the morning even though we're aware that in an important sense it is the horizon going down while the sun remains relatively stationary. We might allow ourselves to get excited and say "We have to stop using this expression sun comes up because it really gives the wrong impression.  We need a new expression for it. What should we call this? What should we call this?"

Or we might just relax.

"Authority" and "power" have enough semantic overlap (you can swap them back & forth with no ill effects in enough kinds of sentences) that I don't notice any improvement in clarity resulting from abandoning a fairly sturdy and well-established expression like power exchange for the new one "authority transfer." The new one doesn't highlight anything much new in my mind and sounds kind of bureaucratic-ish in the bargain.

But hey, rock on with your bad lexicon. Language is alive. Maybe your thing will catch on. I just hope I can avoid the spectacle resulting from the Power Exchange troops clashing with the Authority Transfer brigades on thread after thread.





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RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/12/2008 3:49:46 PM   
Poetryinpain


Posts: 341
Joined: 3/20/2008
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Noah
"Authority" and "power" have enough semantic overlap (you can swap them back & forth with no ill effects in enough kinds of sentences) that I don't notice any improvement in clarity resulting from abandoning a fairly sturdy and well-established expression like power exchange for the new one "authority transfer." The new one doesn't highlight anything much new in my mind and sounds kind of bureaucratic-ish in the bargain.


They may be sometimes used interchangeably, but they have subtly different meanings. Authority implies a right, and power implies the ability or capacity. My take on this is that someone with authority has to be granted that authority, whereas someone with power has that power inherently.

pip, the word nerd

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RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/12/2008 4:35:46 PM   
Noah


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Poetryinpain

quote:

ORIGINAL: Noah
"Authority" and "power" have enough semantic overlap (you can swap them back & forth with no ill effects in enough kinds of sentences) that I don't notice any improvement in clarity resulting from abandoning a fairly sturdy and well-established expression like power exchange for the new one "authority transfer." The new one doesn't highlight anything much new in my mind and sounds kind of bureaucratic-ish in the bargain.


They may be sometimes used interchangeably, but they have subtly different meanings. Authority implies a right, and power implies the ability or capacity. My take on this is that someone with authority has to be granted that authority, whereas someone with power has that power inherently.

pip, the word nerd


MMhmm.  And you're entitled to your take. Now please consider:

The Justice of the Peace says to your friends at teh courthouse: "By the power vested in me by the Commonwealth of Rhode Island I now pronounce you man and wife."  This is clearly a case of "granted" capacity which is standardly known and referred to as power, not authority.

An infinite supply exists of other examples of common usage which blurs, ignores or contradicts your schema.

Please understand that I agree that two sorts of phenomena exists where one is well accounted for by the way you describe the meaning of power and where the other is well accounted for by the way you describe the meaning of authority. I just don't see Justices of the Peace (nor anyone else very generally) restricting their usages of those two words inthe way that your verbal diagram suggests.

Even adopting for the moment your strict labelling of this dichotomy, please consider these two pairs of people.

Pair A includes some subbie I've never met or heard of, who lives across town, and me.

Pair B includes the same subbie and the Dominant partner she has devoted herself to these past two years in a deep, rich, and thriving relationship.

Now, setting aside authority in your sense of the term, who do you think has more power (again, in your semse of the term) over this subbie? Who has more power to please her? To thrill her? To annoy her? To help her?  To hurt her (especially emotionally but even in other ways)?

I suggest that her Dom, in addition to having gained authority over her (in your sense) is also likely to have gained power over her. If nothing else consider the power inherent in the knowledge of a person's deepest feelings, fears, aspirations and secrets.

Even if the subbie revokes the grant by which his "authority" was obtained, the Dom very likely retains some significant capacity or ability to be a friend or enemy to her, capacity which I, not being her Dom, simply don't have. That capacity, in your terms as I understand them, is power, not authority. And he got that power only in virtue of her exchanging it for (whatever it was she got out of the relationship).

Am I making sense?

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RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/12/2008 4:45:50 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Noah

"By the power vested in me by the Commonwealth of Rhode Island I now pronounce you man and wife." 



In fact.. the judge is exercising his capacity to pronounce a person man and wife, and such ability was granted by the authoirty of the Commonwealth of Rhode Island.

By the power... is capacity/ability to do

but his authority to do was vested in him by the Commonwealth of Rhode Island


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An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/12/2008 4:58:13 PM   
ExSteelAgain


Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline 		I have heard Lucky Albatross' authority exchange definition for quite a while, but I have to agree with Noah. Semantics, as are most of our discussions. It seems we are splitting hairs.



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RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/12/2008 5:04:08 PM   
ExSteelAgain


Posts: 1803
Joined: 7/2/2006
From: Georgia
Status: offline 		Sorry, but on a totally unrelated subject except it was mentioned on the thread a couple of times that Rhode Island is a commonwealth. It's not. Trivia fanatic I am.

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RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/12/2008 5:15:24 PM   
Noah


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: Noah

"By the power vested in me by the Commonwealth of Rhode Island I now pronounce you man and wife." 



In fact.. the judge is exercising his capacity to pronounce a person man and wife, and such ability was granted by the authoirty of the Commonwealth of Rhode Island.

By the power... is capacity/ability to do

but his authority to do was vested in him by the Commonwealth of Rhode Island


He says he has power vested in him by the Comonwealth.

You say: " his authority to do was vested in him by the Commonwealth"

So he is wrong when he says a power was vested in him by RI?  And is every other JP wrong when he or she says a similar sentence?

If so then a few people in a BDSM message board seem to be suddenly dictating the meanings of words to a very large public who are all under the impression that they have been understanding one another quite differently for centuries. That's interesting.

Pip says authority is conferred but power is inherent. There is nothing inherent in the guy with the JP id card that lets him marry people. His being able to do that is nothing else but that which is conferred on him by social contract.

Can you include in your response a one word answer to the following question:

Is the JP exercising power or is he exercising authority?

Thanks Knight.

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RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/12/2008 5:27:24 PM   
Noah


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

Sorry, but on a totally unrelated subject except it was mentioned on the thread a couple of times that Rhode Island is a commonwealth. It's not. Trivia fanatic I am.

Not TOTALLY unrelated.

Oh good.  A pair of interlocking semantic disagreements.
This just gets better!

Commonwealth:
  1. The people of a nation or state; the body politic.
  2. A nation or state governed by the people; a republic.
Every U.S. state is a commonwealth, as is the United States as a whole. Only the states of  Kentucky, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, and Virginia incorporate the term commonwealth into their official name. Confusingly, Puerto Rico and the Northern Mariana Islands are called commomwealths to distinguish them from states. Of course this effort fails insofar as four states are actually called commonwealths, collapsing the dichotomy under construction.

I go into this not just because it is silly. It is another example of an attempt to use two different term to name two different sorts of things. It is also an example of the mess that ensues when this noble technique is employed using words which are already commonly understood to work on both sides of the point of difference being distinguished.


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RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/12/2008 5:32:53 PM   
Poetryinpain


Posts: 341
Joined: 3/20/2008
Status: offline 		I could give a smart-ass answer and say that whoever wrote that phrase in the first place didn't know the difference. But what I will say is that the power to confer the legal status of marriage on a couple is inherent in the position of Justice of the Peace. The position of JP was conferred by the State, and with that position came the power.

My boss has authority over me; he does not have power over me. He cannot make me do things by power of will, but by the power of his authority. If I had a Dom to whom I had ceded authority, he would dominate me by the power of the authority I had ceded to him, and (I would hope) by the power of our love for one another. But HE does not have that power - it is inherent in the authority and love.

pip, I love semantics

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RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/12/2008 5:54:35 PM   
KnightofMists


Posts: 7149
Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Noah
Is the JP exercising power or is he exercising authority?



Both

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An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

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