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RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/12/2008 5:57:18 PM   
ExSteelAgain


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Noah

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

Sorry, but on a totally unrelated subject except it was mentioned on the thread a couple of times that Rhode Island is a commonwealth. It's not. Trivia fanatic I am.

Not TOTALLY unrelated.

Oh good.  A pair of interlocking semantic disagreements.
This just gets better!

Commonwealth:
  1. The people of a nation or state; the body politic.
  2. A nation or state governed by the people; a republic.

Every U.S. state is a commonwealth, as is the United States as a whole. Only the states of  Kentucky, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania, and Virginia incorporate the term commonwealth into their official name. Confusingly, Puerto Rico and the Northern Mariana Islands are called commomwealths to distinguish them from states. Of course this effort fails insofar as four states are actually called commonwealths, collapsing the dichotomy under construction.

I go into this not just because it is silly. It is another example of an attempt to use two different term to name two different sorts of things. It is also an example of the mess that ensues when this noble technique is employed using words which are already commonly understood to work on both sides of the point of difference being distinguished.


Only 4 states describe themselves as commonwealths. The other 46 "officially" describe themselves as states. No where will you see any literature from the states' governments saying they are commonwealths. Now if we lack "official" literature you can pretty much say what you want.

So if a slave says she is a slave, she is a slave in my book. If someone says they have an authority transfer relationship, I'll know what is meant too although I agree with your orginal point that it is semantics.

Subtee said this the other day and it kind of fits:
"If discussions/arguments with discordant semantics at their core were banned here for a day we would probably all hear the crickets chirp..."

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RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/12/2008 6:05:23 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

I have heard Lucky Albatross' authority exchange definition for quite a while, but I have to agree with Noah. Semantics, as are most of our discussions. It seems we are splitting hairs.


aaaaaawwwwwwwww but that is the very reason that we have various words the similiar meanings but not the exact same meanings.  Words will have different implications.. depending on the context it is used and we do split hairs to get down to the subtle differences in ones opinions and ideals from another.  We are not black and white as much as some like to make it so... we are shades of gray.......... but aaaawww exactly what shade?  That is the beauty of words with similar but slight differences in meanings.  In many cases words are and can be interchangeable... but not in ALL situations.

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RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/12/2008 6:14:46 PM   
ExSteelAgain


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Status: offline 		Knight, well, yes and no. I do see what you mean, but in the thread context, I had to go with Noah's view although it looks like I later got into a debate with him.

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RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/12/2008 6:44:26 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

although it looks like I later got into a debate with him.


funny how that happens!

But .. I do agree with Noah in part.. in that words can have very similar meaning... as example

Authority Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Power transfer

Well.. seems to work doesn't it ... but yet.. In my world.. I am not enhancing my Authority.. I have it already.  The authority is Complete that I have from the girls... The Power.... The ability/capacity of our relationship to thrive is what I am seeking to enhance and I am doing it with the complete authority.

Authority/Power have very similiar meanings... but yet they also have some subtle but distinct differences as well... Labels to a degree are important.. but lets not make them more than they are.. which I am afraid many do just that.  I am more concerned with the meaning/definitions of the words a person is using so that I can more effectively understand their opinions/thoughts/feelings etc. 

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RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/12/2008 8:06:12 PM   
Noah


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Poetryinpain

I could give a smart-ass answer and say that whoever wrote that phrase in the first place didn't know the difference. But what I will say is that the power to confer the legal status of marriage on a couple is inherent in the position of Justice of the Peace. The position of JP was conferred by the State, and with that position came the power.


10-4 

 The power is inherent in the position of the justice of the peace and is exercised by the person chosen to execute that office. But the position of JP does not marry anyone. The man or woman called the JP does.  And as you said he or she does so by the "power" which is not inherent in him or her but rather is conferred on him or her  by the state, which in turn is vested with that power by the general agreement of the body politic--or the commonwealth if you prefer.

So here we seem conferred, non-inherent power exercised by a man or woman, disproving that in normal English usage "power" is not used to signify conferred capacity.

quote:

My boss has authority over me; he does not have power over me. He cannot make me do things by power of will, but by the power of his authority. If I had a Dom to whom I had ceded authority, he would dominate me by the power of the authority I had ceded to him, and (I would hope) by the power of our love for one another. But HE does not have that power - it is inherent in the authority and love.

Can your boss fire you, thereby affecting your income? Mine can. He has the power to deprive me of my livelihood and if I said that to one thousand English speaking passersby, every single one would know what I meant.

That is all I'm trying to get clear here. You and LA and others seem to want "power" to mean THIS and "authority" to mean THAT. The meaning of a word is the use it is put to. People put those words to uses at odds with your schema every day and are perfectly well understood. Your schema does not account for normal English usage and therefore cannot settle a dispute about speaking of D/s in terms of authority transfer
vs. power exchange.

 If you want to say something like "'I'd rather use the word the word authority here to take advantage of the connotation it more often has of conferred rather than inherent power, because that's what I'd like to focus on" well that would be very workable.  But you're pissing in the wind to say that "Authority Transfer" is a preferable term beause "authority" means THIS while "power" means that. Just  doesn't jibe with how English speakers use the terms. And this includes JPs and judges, some of them very educated people and all in a profession that is all about the exercise of power/authority.

Let your love of words and semantics open itself to the full beauty of these words and how meanings obtain for language. Part of the beauty of the word power is that JP's can use it the way they have used it every day for centuries and be understood (in direct contradiction of your theory, alas.)


Meanwhile--and I think very interestingly--no one seems to be addressing the question I posed in relation to Couple A and Couple B. Do you or don't you believe that someone's beloved Dom of long-standing has more power (as defined by you; setting aside all issue of authority as defined by you) over her than some stranger chosen at random? For instance the power to make her laugh, or make her cry, scare her or reassure he in certain ways? And doesn't he attain this power in virtue of being her Dom?

I think it is a pretty straightforward question, but no one has addressed it. In fact I'd particularly like to hear from LA on this.

This Dom may have garnered this power as a result of events following the granting of authority to him by the sub, but once he has the power he has the power. And by your definitions it is indeed power rather than authority. Anyone who does grant the kinds of authority at issue here must know full well that they are also ceding various sorts of power. So this notion that D/s is about Transfer of Authority rather than Power Exchange gets this exactly wrong. Misses it altogether.




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RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/12/2008 8:07:18 PM   
Noah


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: Noah
Is the JP exercising power or is he exercising authority?



Both


So the selfsame activity can be called the exercise of power or called the exercise of authority.  Thank you.

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RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/12/2008 8:19:17 PM   
Noah


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

Only 4 states describe themselves as commonwealths. The other 46 "officially" describe themselves as states. No where will you see any literature from the states' governments saying they are commonwealths. Now if we lack "official" literature you can pretty much say what you want.


And if nowhere on the brochure does it say that Iowa is "Earthian" shall we conclude that it is Venusian?

Of course you can say what you want, but the primary lexical definitions of the term commonwealth are still
  1. The people of a nation or state; the body politic.
  2. A nation or state governed by the people; a republic.
How the presence or absence of that word in certain documents could decide whether it applies to any body politic or state with a republican form of government eludes me.

Every US town and county is also a commonwealth. That is just what the word means.


quote:

So if a slave says she is a slave, she is a slave in my book. If someone says they have an authority transfer relationship, I'll know what is meant too although I agree with your orginal point that it is semantics.
Well of course you will. At the end of the day you're a pretty reasonable person.
quote:

Subtee said this the other day and it kind of fits:
"If discussions/arguments with discordant semantics at their core were banned here for a day we would probably all hear the crickets chirp..."


Maybe if we trained the subbies to rub their legs together just right ...


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RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/12/2008 8:22:52 PM   
DreamyLadySnow


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Status: offline 		hejira,
tis funny. I've known Knight for years - when I saw the title of your thread, I thought geez, that sounds like something Knight would say! lol.

As he explained it to me, it makes more sense than anything else I've heard.


LS

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RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/12/2008 8:27:17 PM   
Noah


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: ExSteelAgain

although it looks like I later got into a debate with him.


funny how that happens!


Frickin' hilarious.

quote:

But .. I do agree with Noah in part.. in that words can have very similar meaning... as example

Authority Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Power transfer

Well.. seems to work doesn't it ... but yet.. In my world.. I am not enhancing my Authority.. I have it already.  The authority is Complete that I have from the girls... The Power.... The ability/capacity of our relationship to thrive is what I am seeking to enhance and I am doing it with the complete authority.

Authority/Power have very similiar meanings... but yet they also have some subtle but distinct differences as well... Labels to a degree are important.. but lets not make them more than they are.. which I am afraid many do just that.  I am more concerned with the meaning/definitions of the words a person is using so that I can more effectively understand their opinions/thoughts/feelings etc. 


Hear hear.

So, once again setting aside all the sematic issues and just looking at teh phenomena, do you hold with LA that what a sub offers up is the sort of influence that PIP calls authority and the sort of influence that Pip calls power?

I refer you again to the question about the two couples in my earlier post(s).

I ask this because like you I'm more interested in the phenomena than the labels and I see the phenomena of submissives yielding both sort of influence in any usual sort of case.





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RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/12/2008 8:44:48 PM   
Poetryinpain


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Joined: 3/20/2008
Status: offline 		I do not "exchange" power. I transfer authority. The authority I transfer to a dominant enhances his power. It also enhances my power because I have willingly transferred the authority, and he knows I can take it back at any time.

I suppose you could say that in transferring the authority I am transferring the power, but I do not lose any power in doing so. I do lose authority in whatever areas I have transferred, but not power, because I can un-transfer the authority.

pip, who likes using the word that most clearly conveys the idea

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RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/12/2008 8:50:06 PM   
hejira92


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From: Palm Beach County, Fl
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DreamyLadySnow

hejira,
tis funny. I've known Knight for years - when I saw the title of your thread, I thought geez, that sounds like something Knight would say! lol.

As he explained it to me, it makes more sense than anything else I've heard.


LS


Whew. I went out for the evening (Master had band practice) and I come back to a semantics debate. I had hoped this thread wouldn't have derailed into that, but I guess I should have known- I did ask for opinions about terminology. My bad.
 
Thank you, DLS, for addressing my original post.
 
While the discussion of the merits of the terms Authority and Power could go on for days, I was asking not of the validity of the words in the phrase, but more "does it resonate with you in helping to describe your relationship?"
 
If you are one who insists on a precise, agreed upon definition of every word, then you will never find a satisfactory term and the answer to my question may be "no, I don't like it".
 
Discussion is positive, of course, providing it enhances the understanding of the topic- finding a more complete term for WIITWD.
 
I was just struck by this one- no matter who originated it .
 
 
Edited to add:
 
Whoo-hoo! I just noticed I've moved up to one paddle! I'm corrupted!

 

< Message edited by hejira92 -- 4/12/2008 8:53:15 PM >

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RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/12/2008 9:18:31 PM   
marieToo


Posts: 3595
Joined: 5/21/2006
From: Jersey
Status: offline 		In my world, it's more like a seizure than a transfer or an exchange.  If it's not torn away from me, he aint gettin' it.  But then, I'm probably a poor example. 

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RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/12/2008 10:49:23 PM   
ownedgirlie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: hejira92

That's all. What do you think?
 
 
 


Hello my corrupted friend. 

To be honest, labeling what we are isn't something I think about.  He has power over me and he has authority over me and he rules over me, and anything else anyone wants to call it.  I call it a Master/slave dynamic.  The alphabet soup of acronyms beyond that don't interest me much, although I understand and respect others' interest in it.

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RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/12/2008 10:55:41 PM   
SimplyMichael


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quote:

I just hope I can avoid the spectacle resulting from the Power Exchange troops clashing with the Authority Transfer brigades on thread after thread.


So far, this seems to be a one man spectacle.

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RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/12/2008 11:02:12 PM   
mbes


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Noah
Meanwhile--and I think very interestingly--no one seems to be addressing the question I posed in relation to Couple A and Couple B. Do you or don't you believe that someone's beloved Dom of long-standing has more power (as defined by you; setting aside all issue of authority as defined by you) over her than some stranger chosen at random? For instance the power to make her laugh, or make her cry, scare her or reassure he in certain ways? And doesn't he attain this power in virtue of being her Dom?

I think it is a pretty straightforward question, but no one has addressed it. In fact I'd particularly like to hear from LA on this.

This Dom may have garnered this power as a result of events following the granting of authority to him by the sub, but once he has the power he has the power. And by your definitions it is indeed power rather than authority. Anyone who does grant the kinds of authority at issue here must know full well that they are also ceding various sorts of power. So this notion that D/s is about Transfer of Authority rather than Power Exchange gets this exactly wrong. Misses it altogether.

Using your example, I'd like to answer that she likely has power over him in the same or similar measure. She likely has the power to make him laugh or cry, scare or reassure him, by virtue of knowledge and association as well. Does this make the term "power exchange" valid, or invalid?
Or is that just my relationships?

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RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/13/2008 1:05:25 AM   
Justme696


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From: Royal kingdom of the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Bit offtopic perhaps, but in many threads it is often a point of discussion..how to describe your relation in the bdsm world. Can some one explain (or try) why it is so important?
What does having a description of your relation ..add to that relation?

(or even worse....do I miss the point of this thread?)


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RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/13/2008 6:36:39 AM   
thetammyjo


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Status: offline 		All I can say in response to this topic is that I have never liked to describe what I do as "power exchange" but as my getting authority and exercising authority.

I'd go so far as to say that if both people in my relationships don't learn to have and use their own power better then I've failed as the dominant to help us both become better people. Even the people I only trained for 3 months walked away with more power -- the power that comes with more knowledge about themselves, about SM, about bondage and about DS. I walked away with more power as I gained more knowledge about those topics as well.

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RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/13/2008 7:00:26 AM   
Deliena


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From: Darlington, United Kingdom
Status: offline 		I'm getting to the "labels are for jars, not for people" stage with this thread - which is a shame because the original post I found fascinating.  Self-identification and the desire to identify in way that others comprehend nuance from instantly is very hard, in any environment not least the dynamic and diverse arena of sexual relations (be they BDSM or vanilla or any mixture thereof)

Words do have power - clearly, or this thread would simply have had a lot of answers stating - ooo that's cool :D

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RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/13/2008 7:09:40 AM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: DreamyLadySnow

hejira,
tis funny. I've known Knight for years -


Hi Dreamy.... and it has been a few since I have seen you... hope all it well.

Now back to your regular scheduled programming!

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RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/13/2008 7:48:49 AM   
Tahna


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Status: offline 		There is a difference between authority and power in the context of relationships, for me, and they are not interchangable terms.

I can respect a person's authority without permitting them to have power over me.
I obey laws, defer to them, because I know that there are individuals who have the authority and power to enforce them and affect my financial life and free will. In this process I may or may not respect the individual or entitities that exercise this authority.

In the context of BDSM relationships; my personal power is drawn, woo'd, offered, to an other, toward whom I am inclined and for whom I gladly (can't not) subordinate my free will. Mine (respect, will and power) is intertwined with theirs for both our benefit. I have no authority over the dominants in my life. I have power to conform, comply and capitulate. In exchange, as a result of their exercise of power, I receive things and stuff that can only exist within the framework of this circuiting.

I prefer the symbiotic nature of exchange to that of a linear or finite transference. I say finite because of the "I can take it back any time I want" camp. Noah alluded to the concept of someone maintaining a position of "holding power" in someone's life even if a "relationship" ends.






< Message edited by Tahna -- 4/13/2008 7:56:02 AM >

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