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RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/13/2008 8:27:41 AM   
Mercnbeth


Posts: 11766
Status: offline 		hejira92,

this slave thinks it is great that you have found a descriptor for your relationship that resonates with you.  indeed, the only One-True-Way that matters is the path you are on.
 
since you asked for input, "Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authority Transfer", to this slave, sounds very clinical, much like these:
 
Sovereignty Augmentation Liaison with Influence Translocation
or
Influence Amplification Alliance with Hegemony Shift
 
"power exchange" isn't something we use to describe our relationship. additionally, using Master/slave as a descriptor of the dynamic our relationship is based on is neither pejorative nor uncomfortable for us.

< Message edited by Mercnbeth -- 4/13/2008 8:28:35 AM >

(in reply to hejira92)
Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/13/2008 9:36:59 AM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696
Bit offtopic perhaps, but in many threads it is often a point of discussion..how to describe your relation in the bdsm world. Can some one explain (or try) why it is so important?
What does having a description of your relation ..add to that relation?

(or even worse....do I miss the point of this thread?)

Names and labels have power- that's why they are often so hotly debated.

As well, it is a symbol of comfort.  Vanillas get to describe their personal relationships without castigation, in fact they are often celebrated- engagements and weddings and anniversaries get showers and parties.  Wearing a wedding ring is still a status symbol in the mainstream culture not to mention all the legal benefits marriages entail.  It's socially expected behavior to discuss what you did with your "boyfriend" or "husband" in groups.

Holding to a relationships label which does not fit the socially accepted standard becomes a problem- it's a symbol of all the rejection and repression we have to endure.  Sure I can easily SAY "boyfriend" instead of "master" for everyone's ease and comfort, but it's still not the full truth and still something someone has to WATCH FOR.

Now when you're talking WITHIN the kink world- well I've found that the number one thing people love to do when they get into the scene and are so excited that they can break down all the rules and just be free to explore whatever they want...is to build up rules and boxes and learn the ropes so that they get accepted and approved of as quickly as possible.

When people use the term "TPE" I know pretty much what they mean.  It's not seriously important for them to use the terminology I think is more accurate, because we have a common enough language and translations to get what the concepts are behind the terms. 

However, I still think they are using less accurate terms than they could and in discussion forums where often the point is to hash out "little points" such as these, I'll put my energy into it.  It's not so much important that the whole world agrees and loves my term, it's getting people to REALLY let go of their need for there to be concrete and universal concepts and boxes.  People hate that.

_____________________________

Find stable partners, not a stable of partners.

"Sometimes my whore logic gets all fuzzy"- Californication

(in reply to Justme696)
Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/13/2008 9:54:05 AM   
Justme696


Posts: 3236
Joined: 1/7/2008
From: Royal kingdom of the Netherlands
Status: offline 		thank you for explaining :)
I myself have no urge for lables and such, so it was a bit hard to understand the discussions about it.
Soemtimes it is handy to use them so we know what we talk about.

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~Been there, done that, got the t-shirt

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/13/2008 1:07:24 PM   
KnightofMists


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Joined: 7/29/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

Now when you're talking WITHIN the kink world- well I've found that the number one thing people love to do when they get into the scene and are so excited that they can break down all the rules and just be free to explore whatever they want...is to build up rules and boxes and learn the ropes so that they get accepted and approved of as quickly as possible.



I agree and  find the irony of this to be very amusing.  So many push against the norms/rules of society like they are chains to their existence and shout to high heavens their distaste to society's rules/norms.  They demand and speak for thier desire to be free and uninhibited by rules and norms.  Then they promptly go about establishing rules/norms to their world within the lifestyle.

I agree with you Lucky... I have an intense dislike for universal applied concepts in general.  But, I also accept and expect that we as individuals will establish our own boxes and labels for ourselves and how we view the world.  But just becuase I view it this way.. doesn't make it right.. doesn't make it wrong.  Doesn't make the true way.. it only makes it My way.  Some agree some don't... frankly.. it doesn't matter to me.

As Dreamy alluded to... I have been expressing my world in a concept of PER long before I came to these boards and never was able to be comfortable with the terminalogy and meaning of PE.  The first time I head of Authority Transfer was from you.. I don't believe I have heard anyone use the terminalogy before.  It resonated with me.  I felt it was a proper descriptor from My perspective.  

Often we are communicating our world to others.  Labels help with that.. IF they are clear.  I have come to find Master/slave to be absolutely useless as a descriptor of my relationship to others or feel that I have any better understand of what another's relationship is with that descriptor.  The differences in what a Master/slave relationship is are so varied that you might as well call a relationship  Man/Women for the amount of clariety and depth of understanding one gets.  But I also find that M/s to be reflect of only the authority structure within the dynamic.. but my relationship is more than just who will make the decisions in the relationship.. hence why I see it as a Power Enhancement Relationship.  Of course, for some M/s is more than just about authority.  For me that is like using the word women and having it also mean mother and sister.. which in truth.. being a woman doesn't necessarily mean you will be a mother or a sister to anyone.. even though most are. 

But people love to combine definitions into one word.  Say Dominant... and they slap definition of Top into the word.. and so stuck on that they find it unbelieve to comprehend a Dominant that will bottom to another.  Who he/she can't be a Dominant if they bottom.  Most often peoples boxes are too big.  I suppose they like to make it simple.. Ironically, by grouping things in such manners... I think they continue to make it more difficult for themselves.  Hence why you see so many relationship that step back when person A figures out that person's B definition of X is different.  We get so much drama on these boards just because of this fact alone.  It works well when people share the meaning and definition and it's implications of a given label.. But, the issues can become very significant when they find out there is gap in their use of a label..



_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
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RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/13/2008 1:50:41 PM   
Noah


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Poetryinpain

I do not "exchange" power. I transfer authority. The authority I transfer to a dominant enhances his power. It also enhances my power because I have willingly transferred the authority, and he knows I can take it back at any time.


Okay. Sounds to me like unhelpful hair-spliting designed more to defend a position than to illuminate. Rock on with it if it scratches your itch.

quote:

I suppose you could say that in transferring the authority I am transferring the power, but I do not lose any power in doing so. I do lose authority in whatever areas I have transferred, but not power, because I can un-transfer the authority.


I thank you for this, though. It brings up the matter of the degree to which various sorts of influence can be seen as operating like a zero sum game, for one thing.

 In a zero sum game that which is added here has to have been subtracted there, as I understand the term.

The influence which you like to call authority seems kind of zero-summish in the sense you highlight here. The kind of influence you like to call authority, less so.  That's interesting, and perhaps one interesting marker of difference between what you like to call authority and what you like to call power.

Exploring a little bit we can see a point just nearby where "authority transfer" ceases to be zero-summish, or becomes less so, in that you might transfer the same sort of authority to more than one person. You give it up and partner one gains it and partner two gains it as well. Sure complications arise, but then they almost always do when the subject turns from dyad to triad, or twosome to threesome.

These comments also open the door to more exploration of the interactions between what you call power and what you call authority. In what ways to they give rise to, reinforce ort end to negate one another? As we conduct our D/s.. PE.. TA  relationships these phenomena are taking place. I think it worthwhile to notice them and discuss them for the sake of our relationships as well as for the sake of some sort of abstract understanding.

Thanks for carrying the conversation forward.




quote:

pip, who likes using the word that most clearly conveys the idea

I think that in deciding what conveys a idea most clearly one shouldn't neglect to note that what seems most clear to oneself  may seem unclear or even befuddling to the audience one is trying convey thoughts too.


(in reply to Poetryinpain)
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RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/13/2008 1:55:43 PM   
Noah


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quote:

ORIGINAL: marieToo

In my world, it's more like a seizure than a transfer or an exchange.  If it's not torn away from me, he aint gettin' it.  But then, I'm probably a poor example. 


 I like anything that helps us view this sort of stuff with less reliance on an economic metaphor. The economic metaphor obviously comes right to mind for a lot of folks and maybe it does model their relationships effectively but it seems to obscure, smudge and ignore altogether a lot of what goes on between my partners and I.

And yeah, you're a poor example of anything you pathetic little piece of ....

Thanks for posting.

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RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/13/2008 1:57:49 PM   
Noah


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quote:

ORIGINAL: ownedgirlie
To be honest, labeling what we are isn't something I think about.  He has power over me and he has authority over me and he rules over me, and anything else anyone wants to call it.  I call it a Master/slave dynamic.  The alphabet soup of acronyms beyond that don't interest me much, although I understand and respect others' interest in it.


That was lovely.  Thanks.

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RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/13/2008 2:04:12 PM   
Noah


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quote:

ORIGINAL: SimplyMichael

quote:

I just hope I can avoid the spectacle resulting from the Power Exchange troops clashing with the Authority Transfer brigades on thread after thread.


So far, this seems to be a one man spectacle.

Was that moi?

Actually Mike, if you scroll up you can see where after voicing my reservations about the proposed terminology I accepted for the sake of discussion that very terminology and tried to use it carefully to refocus my contribution to the conversation on the phenomena instead of the labels.

Everyone's willingness to have something other than a semantic pissing contest has produced a very nice discussion, if you ask me. I know I'm learning stuff here.

If you also find the flavors of interpersonal influence interesting, feel free to chime in.

(in reply to SimplyMichael)
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RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/13/2008 2:16:50 PM   
Noah


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quote:

ORIGINAL: mbes
Using your example, I'd like to answer that she likely has power over him in the same or similar measure. She likely has the power to make him laugh or cry, scare or reassure him, by virtue of knowledge and association as well. Does this make the term "power exchange" valid, or invalid?
Or is that just my relationships?


Thanks for bringing in something that's preent in the relationships at issue but which had been absent from this conversation so far.

Sticking with pip's terminology I think we can see that each party has allowed the other a measure of power over them. Maybe that is why some people like the term Power Exchange. Then again maybe a lot of people have been overlooking this two-sideness even as they used the term Power Exchange.

One tiny half-step beyond what you've said lies the observation that in any caring relationship people gain (pippian) power over one another.  And yet people have been trying to use Power Exchange to mark out D/s relationships as different from vanilla ones.

Are there types or kinds of influence (authority/power/etc) that are in play in BDSM relations that aren't in vanilla relationships as a rule? Or are the differences more  matters of degree?

The "authority" for one person to smack the other one around is usually seen as unhealthy in vanilla relationships but it is often constituative of BDSM relationships. Then again anyone who moves in with with their partner grants them the power to kill them in their sleep, regardless of whether their relationship is vanilla or rocky road.

I would not suggest that anyone need to consider--let alone answer-- these questions in order to have fruitful BDSM relationships. That said, these considerations might in some cases help get to the root of a particular difficulty in a particular relationship. And again, some people just seem motivated to cultivate a theortical understanding, or at least framework, for WIITWD.



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RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/13/2008 2:26:00 PM   
Noah


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Justme696

Bit offtopic perhaps, but in many threads it is often a point of discussion..how to describe your relation in the bdsm world. Can some one explain (or try) why it is so important?
What does having a description of your relation ..add to that relation?

Fair questions. I personally tend to think that the answers are less likely to be valuable than any insights gained in the quest for the answers.

The notion that we need these labels in order to converse with one another about our relationships doesn't hold all that much water with me. Consider that as of now there seems to be no general consensus about what distinguishes Master from Dominant, Submissive from slave, etc. Yet when we get together (here or elsewhere) with another person couple or managerie who is genuinely motivated to share thoughts about WIITWD, we often manage to get the job done.

I like the fact that we so often find it useful to step back to a very broad view and employ the term "WIITWD".  This indicates to me that yes, we kind of need some noise to make at that point in the conversation, but often enough the less work we ask the label to do the more smoothly the conversation proceeds.


quote:

(or even worse....do I miss the point of this thread?)

I can see more than one point to the conversation so far. Anything you may find useful can be the point(s) of it for you, I guess.

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RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/13/2008 2:31:55 PM   
Noah


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quote:

ORIGINAL: thetammyjo

All I can say in response to this topic is that I have never liked to describe what I do as "power exchange" but as my getting authority and exercising authority.

I'd go so far as to say that if both people in my relationships don't learn to have and use their own power better then I've failed as the dominant to help us both become better people. Even the people I only trained for 3 months walked away with more power -- the power that comes with more knowledge about themselves, about SM, about bondage and about DS. I walked away with more power as I gained more knowledge about those topics as well.


What a nice, clear observation, that regardless of whether one wants to speak in terms of Power Exchange we can see that power can be cultivated or discovered in these relationships.And harking back to an earlier talking point we can note that this needn't operate in a zero-sum fashion.

Whereas the conversation so far seeems to have been more about one partners power over the other, the scope  here opens up to include power which may be weilded much more generally, internally and externally. I'm sure that this could be the basis for any number of further discussions in itself.

Thanks

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RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/13/2008 2:36:40 PM   
Noah


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Deliena
Words do have power - clearly, or this thread would simply have had a lot of answers stating - ooo that's cool :D


Sure words have power, but do they have authority?

I wonder how many pages long an all-grunts-moans-and-sniffs thread would be, anyway?

(in reply to Deliena)
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RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/13/2008 3:01:10 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Noah

quote:

ORIGINAL: mbes
Using your example, I'd like to answer that she likely has power over him in the same or similar measure. She likely has the power to make him laugh or cry, scare or reassure him, by virtue of knowledge and association as well. Does this make the term "power exchange" valid, or invalid?
Or is that just my relationships?


Thanks for bringing in something that's preent in the relationships at issue but which had been absent from this conversation so far.

Sticking with pip's terminology I think we can see that each party has allowed the other a measure of power over them. Maybe that is why some people like the term Power Exchange. Then again maybe a lot of people have been overlooking this two-sideness even as they used the term Power Exchange.

One tiny half-step beyond what you've said lies the observation that in any caring relationship people gain (pippian) power over one another.  And yet people have been trying to use Power Exchange to mark out D/s relationships as different from vanilla ones.

Are there types or kinds of influence (authority/power/etc) that are in play in BDSM relations that aren't in vanilla relationships as a rule? Or are the differences more  matters of degree?




I'm leaving in mbe's quote as well to keep things in context. I guess I can't wrap my mind around 'power' in the way described. Anyone (who's funny) has the ability to make me laugh but ability doesn't ensure outcome. I will laugh if I am amused. It all rests with me so I don't see any exchange going on. If 99 other people are in the same room, maybe I didn't get the joke, but then, where's the power? The ability is there (obviously if 99 other people are laughing) but the power's not there. It's the same thing with reassuring someone. I would call it an ability which may or may not have a desired outcome upon the attempt to reassure. It's all just so .. iffy.

Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authority Transfer. That's a mouthful and if it resonates with people, kudos to them! For me though, hell, I'm lucky if I wake up in the morning and remember my name!

For me, it's missing the key element of inspiration. Authority commands and opens the door to the possibility of disobedience which, in turn, can end the relationship. Yikes!

Power compels but, wow, it sure can be draining and can also cause me to fear. What if he compels me to do something dreadful? Yikes part 2! Neither of those are good or bad, just the way I see those words myself. I get off on fear, so power works for me to a point. For day to day, ongoing lifestyle living and loving ...  baby, I need inspiration. Inspired obedience is going to get me through the valley's when I slide down the hill. It's for the long haul and the slow burn. It's what makes me stop and say.. what the fuck am I doing.. Himself wouldn't like this and so I turn around and do it the way I know he would approve of for any given task, behavior etc.

Okay, I ain't perfect at it, but.. yanno, it's a process like everything else.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


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RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/13/2008 3:14:26 PM   
Poetryinpain


Posts: 341
Joined: 3/20/2008
Status: offline 		I apologize for getting off-topic while talking about authority vs. power. But to me, the difference (at least my perceived difference) between the words makes the title 'label' more descriptive of the kind of relationship I would like to have.

There - did that actually answer the OP's question?

pip, prone to get side-tracked when talking about words

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There is none so blind as he who will not see.

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RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/13/2008 6:30:06 PM   
Noah


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble


I'm leaving in mbe's quote as well to keep things in context. I guess I can't wrap my mind around 'power' in the way described. Anyone (who's funny) has the ability to make me laugh but ability doesn't ensure an outcome


Very little in life ensures an absolutely particular outcome. I don't see the absence of rigid necessity here as counting for much, since it is part of the background noise of human existence generally.

But that's just me.

quote:

. I will laugh if I am amused. It all rests with me


Huh? If you are amused by whom, exactly?   It ALL rests with you?

How about if you are very protective about your Mom and would never allow anyone to get away with a joke about her in your presence, and would never alow yourself to laugh at one in any case. And how about if after sufficient time and intimacy your partner became so in tune with you and with your mother and with the relationship between you that he found a little chink in this defense of yours, and said something which might horrify you if anyone else said it, but after very briefly catching your beath you found yourself laughing at a genuinely and kind-heartedly funny comment about dear old mom?

Does it really all rest with with you in that moment? That is to say, doesn't the fact that it is him, in just that moment--rather than that bitch from work at your mom's funeral, say, have something to do with the outcome?

This example represents, to me, what I meant when I indicated that a partner might have the power to make you laugh where some stranger on the street didn't. And I'll note my conclusion that you empowerd him to give you that gift of openess and laughter by the intimacies you had shared which led to your being able for the first time to have that response.

Joe blow  COULD NOT make you laugh about your mom that way. Joe (your)Dom managed to. One had the ability to. The other didn't. And it wasn't about you granting authority aforehand because in my example you had never said to yourself or him: "Okay, I will let this guy make me laugh about my mom in ways I let no one else do."

So in Pip's terminology, which has been in use right along, that ability is a power rather than an authority.

Agree or disagree as you may, I hope I've made clearer the bit you said you couldn't get your head around. If this all comes down  to you insisting that power and ability are two crucially different things needing different names then you have brought a new element to the conversation which each reader may evaluate for him or her self.


 
quote:

so I don't see any exchange going on.

No. No exchange is going on just then. The suggestion is that the person who obtained the special ability to make you laugh acquired it somewhere in the course of your relationship with him, and that you acquired some stuff or other too, and that altogether can be viewed as having been a kind of exchange.


quote:

If 99 other people are in the same room, maybe I didn't get the joke, but then, where's the power? The ability is there (obviously if 99 other people are laughing) but the power's not there. It's the same thing with reassuring someone. I would call it an ability which may or may not have a desired outcome upon the attempt to reassure. It's all just so .. iffy
.

So it seems to me that to you, the word power connotes something absolute and irresistable. That's fine, of course. It doesn't have that connotation for me. To me power, authority, ability, capacity and influence in general are all iffy when it comes to human interpersonal relationships. The future isn't here yet and it may, in any particular case, bring surprises.


quote:

Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authority Transfer. That's a mouthful and if it resonates with people, kudos to them! For me though, hell, I'm lucky if I wake up in the morning and remember my name!
 

How about: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authority Transfer and a Side of Onion Rings?

But I concur. If it resonates for someone and serves them a purpose, great. If it were to be given as a definitive corrective for an alternative term I would not be immediately convinced.  That hasn't been the overall gist of things here, certainly not from Knight. But apparently some of  us enjoy kicking these ideas around. I think that's fine and I'm glad you've joined in.

quote:

For me, it's missing the key element of inspiration.


What a fantastic notion to bring in to the conversation. Thank you.
 
Now, we seldom expect any label or name to convey every aspect, or even all the prominent aspects of the thing it stands for. In that sense I don't think this is a strong indictment of the term under discussion. But what a great thing it might be to conjure up a term which did focus more on that inspiration thing.

quote:

 Authority commands and opens the door to the possibility of disobedience which, in turn, can end the relationship. Yikes!
Well, I think the door to disobedience is always open. And any number of things can end a relationship, but still I think I take your point and it does seem worth making.

quote:

Power compels

Well you have this notion of power being utterly compelling. In the sort of contexts we have in mind I might describe my own sense of power by saying that it impels, to indicate its less than God-like efficacy.


quote:

 but, wow, it sure can be draining and can also cause me to fear. What if he compels me to do something dreadful? Yikes part 2!

Hold on here.  Where's the downside?  Sounds like fun to me.

quote:


 Neither of those are good or bad, just the way I see those words myself. I get off on fear, so power works for me to a point. For day to day, ongoing lifestyle living and loving ...  baby, I need inspiration.

Okay, we're singing from the same page after all.

quote:

 Inspired obedience is going to get me through the valley's when I slide down the hill. It's for the long haul and the slow burn.

I'm guessing that mixed metaphors are not a hard limit where you come from.




Anyway, thanks for a great post.

(in reply to BitaTruble)
Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/13/2008 6:38:38 PM   
BeingChewsie


Posts: 1633
Joined: 10/27/2005
Status: offline 		In our dynamic it is power he uses in all its forms (authority, control, and influence). Just saying he uses authority doesn't cover it.

< Message edited by BeingChewsie -- 4/13/2008 6:39:01 PM >

_____________________________

"In fact, it is my contention that most women are accepting of way less than optimal circumstance constantly, and are lucky to be 'snagged' by the right man, if ever. But it is more by happy accident than by their design. "
~Ron and Hup

(in reply to hejira92)
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RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/13/2008 8:14:58 PM   
KnightofMists


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quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

For me, it's missing the key element of inspiration.


is it?  I actually think that regardless of calling it power exchange or Authority Transfer... there is a basic fundamental question of "Why are they doing it?"  Why does one person "Transfer Authority or Exchange Power".  Obviously the key word for you is Inspiration.... You are Inspired to Submit... Inspired to Obey... You are Inspired by Him.  I suspect that most slave and submissive persons would agree with you, in tht they need to be Inspired... of course their are some that are motivated by other reasons that have little do with inspiration.  For some it relates to following an inner need within and the Dominant person fills that need.  Without it's fulfillment, it's very likely that such a person would not every find contentment or even happiness.  In alot of ways this is a chicken and the egg.  Was a person inspired and that innerself came out...(egg becomes the chicken)... or Was the person self-aware and seeked what would fill that inner desire (chicken lays the egg).  I think both are equally possible and for many... I think they burn both ends to the middle. 





_____________________________

Knight of Mists

An Optimal relationship is achieved when the individuals do what is best for themselves and their relationship.

(in reply to BitaTruble)
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RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/13/2008 8:49:33 PM   
Noah


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quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

For me, it's missing the key element of inspiration.


is it?  I actually think that regardless of calling it power exchange or Authority Transfer... there is a basic fundamental question of "Why are they doing it?"  Why does one person "Transfer Authority or Exchange Power".  Obviously the key word for you is Inspiration.... You are Inspired to Submit... Inspired to Obey... You are Inspired by Him.  I suspect that most slave and submissive persons would agree with you, in tht they need to be Inspired... of course their are some that are motivated by other reasons that have little do with inspiration.  For some it relates to following an inner need within and the Dominant person fills that need.  Without it's fulfillment, it's very likely that such a person would not every find contentment or even happiness.  In alot of ways this is a chicken and the egg.  Was a person inspired and that innerself came out...(egg becomes the chicken)... or Was the person self-aware and seeked what would fill that inner desire (chicken lays the egg).  I think both are equally possible and for many... I think they burn both ends to the middle. 


Another great post. Thanks for bringing more good insights to the conversation.

(in reply to KnightofMists)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/13/2008 9:32:09 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Noah



Huh? If you are amused by whom, exactly?   It ALL rests with you?


By the guy who's cracking the jokes, or the funny situation or the behavior of zoo monkey's. Whatever it is that I may find funny, I'm still the one who has to find it funny if I'm going to be laughing about it. 

quote:

How about if you are very protective about your Mom and would never allow anyone to get away with a joke about her in your presence, and would never alow yourself to laugh at one in any case. And how about if after sufficient time and intimacy your partner became so in tune with you and with your mother and with the relationship between you that he found a little chink in this defense of yours, and said something which might horrify you if anyone else said it, but after very briefly catching your beath you found yourself laughing at a genuinely and kind-heartedly funny comment about dear old mom?


Even when I replace mother with daughter (someone I actually do love and feel protective towards) there is no chink in my defense. I don't have much of a sense of humor (and what is there is fairly warped) as it is and when it comes to my kids, I don't have a sense of humor at all. If someone says something which would horrify me about my kids, it doesn't matter who they are, it's not going to amuse me and will most likely piss me off.

quote:

Does it really all rest with with you in that moment? That is to say, doesn't the fact that it is him, in just that moment--rather than that bitch from work at your mom's funeral, say, have something to do with the outcome?


I don't see how, but then I'm not getting your point so maybe that's to be expected. Maybe it's that Sicilian part of me. Fuck with me all ya want, but don't ever fuck with my family.

quote:

This example represents, to me, what I meant when I indicated that a partner might have the power to make you laugh where some stranger on the street didn't. And I'll note my conclusion that you empowerd him to give you that gift of openess and laughter by the intimacies you had shared which led to your being able for the first time to have that response.

Joe blow  COULD NOT make you laugh about your mom that way. Joe (your)Dom managed to. One had the ability to. The other didn't. And it wasn't about you granting authority aforehand because in my example you had never said to yourself or him: "Okay, I will let this guy make me laugh about my mom in ways I let no one else do."


Ah, the light dawns. I think, if I'm not mistaken, that you mean if Mr. X makes an inappropriate or hurtful comment that coming from someone who is close to me I could interpret it as amusing then the person who is close to me has power to make me laugh .. except, that's not me. I don't find inappropriate and hurtful comments coming from anyone to be amusing and that has been one of the harder areas which Himself and I face. He has to 'tell' me when he's kidding about stuff like that because that sort of thing goes right over my head. I take things quite literally so making a comment about .. say my daughters mothering capabilities or something isn't going to be amusing to me. It's going to hurt my feelings if it comes from Himself and it's going to piss me off if it comes from someone else.  

quote:

So in Pip's terminology, which has been in use right along, that ability is a power rather than an authority.


Eh. I don't think it's either one but, as I said, I don't think I can relate because of my own wiring. It's the whole laughter thing. I'm going to rethink this as a crying thing and see if I can wrap my brains around it. Certainly if stranger said 'boo' to me, I wouldn't cry about it, whereas if Himself said 'boo' to me, I might, indeed, cry about it. Hard to say how much of that is 'power' if any and how much of that is menopause though. I'll get back to you on it .. in about 5 years or so.  (Okay, maybe a very 'slight' sense of humor.) I have to add that Himself laughs at me all the time even when I'm being dead serious and don't 'get' why he's laughing when I'm being serious. I had a medial epicondialectomy(removal of the funny bone) several years ago due to some nerve damage so maybe that explains it.

quote:

Agree or disagree as you may, I hope I've made clearer the bit you said you couldn't get your head around. If this all comes down  to you insisting that power and ability are two crucially different things needing different names then you have brought a new element to the conversation which each reader may evaluate for him or her self.


You did make things clearer when I approached it from the other side of the emotion (crying rather than laughing) and it does make some sense. I don't insist that power and ability are two crucially different things needing different names .. that was Funk & Wagnalls or, maybe Websters.  I think they can hold hands pretty well together or work just fine as completely separate entities. I'm bi, so, yanno, whatever works in the moment is the one I'll probably end up using anyway.


quote:

No. No exchange is going on just then. The suggestion is that the person who obtained the special ability to make you laugh acquired it somewhere in the course of your relationship with him, and that you acquired some stuff or other too, and that altogether can be viewed as having been a kind of exchange.


::blinks:: Whooooosh. Right over my head. I can relate to this in terms of power, but not in terms of ability. Any power that is exchanged is done at his discretion because the power flows one way, like through a flood gate. He can open up the gate and allow it to flow back or he can keep it closed and it just moves in a single direction. He's the gatekeeper and the key master .. I'm just a minion and Zool's not around to help me out! I'm good with that though. (I have to quit listening to Pandora 80's radio while I'm on line. Now I can't get the Ghostbusters theme out of my head!)

quote:

So it seems to me that to you, the word power connotes something absolute and irresistable. That's fine, of course. It doesn't have that connotation for me. To me power, authority, ability, capacity and influence in general are all iffy when it comes to human interpersonal relationships. The future isn't here yet and it may, in any particular case, bring surprises.


Oh, I agree 100% that the future remains mutable. I don't know that I would call power absolute since it's, for me at least, momentary in nature. Irresistible, though, yes, in those moments (or hours/days) where it manifests, it is pretty irresistible to me. Hell, that's why I like it so well!

quote:

How about: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authority Transfer and a Side of Onion Rings?

 
I can hang with some onion rings. They rock. :)



quote:

 but, wow, it sure can be draining and can also cause me to fear. What if he compels me to do something dreadful? Yikes part 2!

Hold on here.  Where's the downside?  Sounds like fun to me.

Dreadful, of course, is purely subjective. He might order me to leave him. That would be dreadful and doesn't sound at all like fun to me.

quote:

 
I'm guessing that mixed metaphors are not a hard limit where you come from.


There's not a whole lot of them there hard limits around these parts and none of them have to do with language which is why I can call him a evil, rotten, rat bastard and not get into truble .. well, not really bad truble anyway.



quote:

Anyway, thanks for a great post.
And thank you for getting me to see things in a bit of a different light.

Celeste

_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to Noah)
Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Power Enhancement Relationship Dynamic with Authori... - 4/13/2008 9:42:25 PM   
BitaTruble


Posts: 9779
Joined: 1/12/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: KnightofMists

quote:

ORIGINAL: BitaTruble

For me, it's missing the key element of inspiration.


is it?  I actually think that regardless of calling it power exchange or Authority Transfer... there is a basic fundamental question of "Why are they doing it?"  Why does one person "Transfer Authority or Exchange Power".  Obviously the key word for you is Inspiration.... You are Inspired to Submit... Inspired to Obey... You are Inspired by Him.  I suspect that most slave and submissive persons would agree with you, in tht they need to be Inspired... of course their are some that are motivated by other reasons that have little do with inspiration.  For some it relates to following an inner need within and the Dominant person fills that need.  Without it's fulfillment, it's very likely that such a person would not every find contentment or even happiness.  In alot of ways this is a chicken and the egg.  Was a person inspired and that innerself came out...(egg becomes the chicken)... or Was the person self-aware and seeked what would fill that inner desire (chicken lays the egg).  I think both are equally possible and for many... I think they burn both ends to the middle. 








Yep. Inspired or motivated - but something has to be there for long term to work for me. In the short term, hell The Look and some heavy dominant testosterone can drop me to my knees for a day. I'm all over that but it's not going to keep me on my knees in the long term.

Celeste


_____________________________

"Oh, so it's just like
Rock, paper, scissors."

He laughed. "You are the wisest woman I know."


(in reply to KnightofMists)
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