Relying on Faith Instead of Facts Brought Moral Calamity

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SugarMyChurro -> Relying on Faith Instead of Facts Brought Moral Calamity (4/13/2008 3:33:09 AM)
Relying on Faith Instead of Facts Brought Moral Calamity http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/daniel_c_dennett/2007/01/the_role_of_faith_in_the_iraq.html Defenders of religion are eager to point out that the motivation for this war was not religious, in spite of President Bush’s blunder in calling it a “crusade,” but they must admit that the administration’s faith in faith over faith in facts has probably been the principle cause of the moral calamity that now confronts us. ----- Christian Americans won't let things like facts spoil getting their war on. Good to know... [8\|]

hisannabelle -> RE: Relying on Faith Instead of Facts Brought Moral Calamity (4/13/2008 3:42:34 AM)
greetings sugarmychurro, i have always put faith in faith, myself, but not to the exclusion of facts. there is such a thing as blind faith, and faith in misleading (and ultimately unfaithful) reasoning and leadership is usually the downfall in situations such as these. unfortunately, christian america, the bush administration, and the war in iraq is not the first case where this has happened. it probably won't be the last. we're several years into this war, as hard as that is for me, at least, to fathom (it still feels like i saw baghdad on fire on the news yesterday). in my opinion, assigning the blame over getting us into this mess is beating a dead horse at this point. insha'allah we will find the wisdom to get ourselves (and the iraqi people) out of it. respectfully, annabelle.

NorthernGent -> RE: Relying on Faith Instead of Facts Brought Moral Calamity (4/13/2008 3:52:37 AM)
SMC, I'd offer that blaming this on religion is totally missing the point and is destructive in of itself; the reason being, while some of these religious types are lost in "the clash of cultures", I find it hard to believe that the policy makers will act on faith. To claim these people are driven by some half-arsed, faith driven crusade is akin to seriously underestimating them. They're dealing in what they believe to be the cold, hard facts of national interest. Some of the followers follow on the basis of faith of course, but the policy makers know exactly what they're doing. They may talk about "good" and "evil", "Islamo-facsists" etc, but I'd be highly surprised in the event they're doing anything more than playing to the gallery. In short, they have business in the Middle East.

SugarMyChurro -> RE: Relying on Faith Instead of Facts Brought Moral Calamity (4/13/2008 3:54:15 AM)
The framing of this war in the context of a war between Christians in the west, and Muslims in the middle-east sets a very dangerous tone for ongoing madness. Maybe it's not precisely the solution, but I think it's wise to acknowledge that there was some severely flawed rhetoric being used to beat the drums of war. NG, now you know I agree with you. But also see above.

NorthernGent -> RE: Relying on Faith Instead of Facts Brought Moral Calamity (4/13/2008 3:55:53 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: hisannabelle in my opinion, assigning the blame over getting us into this mess is beating a dead horse at this point. insha'allah we will find the wisdom to get ourselves (and the iraqi people) out of it. Hi Annabelle, I disagree. If you don't identify where responsiblity lies, and hold those responsible accountable for their actions, you're setting yourself up for next time. As for finding the wisdom, this is a leap of faith.

NorthernGent -> RE: Relying on Faith Instead of Facts Brought Moral Calamity (4/13/2008 4:05:56 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro The framing of this war in the context of a war between Christians in the west, and Muslims in the middle-east sets a very dangerous tone for ongoing madness. It most certainly does. The tactic of cultural denigration and dehumanising a people in order to garner support for inflicting misery on them is as old as the hills: the British government used this tactic in WW1; the Nazis were proficient in this regard. But, it's the means to an end, as opposed to the end. quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro Maybe it's not precisely the solution, but I think it's wise to acknowledge that there was some severely flawed rhetoric being used to beat the drums of war. I agree; it has been a contributing factor. It doesn't detract from the fact, however, that what you're dealing with here are ruthless, cold-headed policy makers.

hisannabelle -> RE: Relying on Faith Instead of Facts Brought Moral Calamity (4/13/2008 4:07:19 AM)
northerngent, i fully agree. but i also believe that most of us are aware exactly who is responsible, and that a little bit of the calling out of those responsible should be tempered with discussion of other things (namely, how to deal with the situation). i know that it's important to recognize who started it and hold them accountable, but like any schoolyard fight, somebody has to end it. figuring out how to do that is the most important thing now, in my opinion.

SugarMyChurro -> RE: Relying on Faith Instead of Facts Brought Moral Calamity (4/13/2008 4:09:20 AM)
Then we all agree, ultimately! [;)]

NorthernGent -> RE: Relying on Faith Instead of Facts Brought Moral Calamity (4/13/2008 4:19:03 AM)
Yeah, all agreed..... What about this then.......the first step is for people to take responsibility for their government, rather than claim "they're nothing to do with us". If people put enough pressure on them, they will buckle, because first and foremost they want to maintain their personal status.

SugarMyChurro -> RE: Relying on Faith Instead of Facts Brought Moral Calamity (4/13/2008 4:38:09 AM)
The problem might very well be one of scale. Smaller might be better. You may know that dissent in the U.S. now often occurs behind fenced areas far away from places where carefully orchestrated events play out for the media in order to manufacture consent among the people. The media itself is owned by a very few. Our voting system has effectively been taken over by private corporations that are being paid to corrupt it. The politicians have to sell out in order to raise the money to run for office. In sum, the political process itself is in shambles. I do believe in participation, but there are limits to what can be achieved by peaceful means in these kinds of circumstances. To set things right a certain upheaval will surely prove necessary. And yes, even that requires active participation. Personally, I think my time for the struggle draws to a close. I am in what can fairly be called the last third of my life, or at least I am fast approaching it. I feel more and more like a spectator of events that do not touch me. My concerns increase to protect me and mine and let the world move on around me. One can only beat one's head against the wall for so long, then it's time for someone else to do it for a while. And there is the next generation coming up - and they don't seem completely stupid. Who can say? There is always that tension between one's private and public life. Balance is good. I don't feel as if it's up to me alone to save the world. Frankly, I am just too selfish for that. Here's an important tool for the future: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temporary_Autonomous_Zone Don't be distracted by the commercial aspects of that. The war of ideas, of information, is possibly the most important thing going.

NorthernGent -> RE: Relying on Faith Instead of Facts Brought Moral Calamity (4/13/2008 4:52:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro I do believe in participation, but there are limits to what can be achieved by peaceful means in these kinds of circumstances. To set things right a certain upheaval will surely prove necessary. And yes, even that requires active participation. Well, over here the polls suggest that the vast majority of people did not want a British presence in Iraq; yet, our government went ahead regardless. Moreover, there is information in the public domain that confirms that a select group of policy makers in Whitehall doctored documents and used forged documents to support their policy. We know this, and, yet, no one seems to care; no one is interested. The policy makers knew exactly what the response would be; they knew millions of people would demonstrate in the streets, and they also knew that the demonstrators would go home to middle-class suburbia with their detached homes and gardens cut off from the rest of the world and continue to prop up the system with a cleansed conscience. It's lost on people that they are the system. Assuming people hold a modicum of intelligence, they're aware that running 'round the streets is a pointless exercise, but they could do some serious damage by placing a hold on investment and refusing to buy this, that and the other; this act would stop the policy makers in their tracks. 'Problem is, people will not do this because when push comes to shove they are the system and they prefer the system to the alternative.

Level -> RE: Relying on Faith Instead of Facts Brought Moral Calamity (4/13/2008 4:59:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro Personally, I think my time for the struggle draws to a close. I am in what can fairly be called the last third of my life, or at least I am fast approaching it. I feel more and more like a spectator of events that do not touch me. My concerns increase to protect me and mine and let the world move on around me. One can only beat one's head against the wall for so long, then it's time for someone else to do it for a while. And there is the next generation coming up - and they don't seem completely stupid. Who can say? There is always that tension between one's private and public life. Balance is good. I don't feel as if it's up to me alone to save the world. Frankly, I am just too selfish for that. Well stated. Now, the assholes that seem to ruin everything, that's what they want, for others to throw in the towel, and that bothers me. Now, you and I beat our heads against different walls, somewhat, but I understand what you mean.

seeksfemslave -> RE: Relying on Faith Instead of Facts Brought Moral Calamity (4/13/2008 5:04:18 AM)
Well I have faith in the fact that over the last 3/4 years or so the violence in Iraq has been sustained by Islamic fundamentalists. What say you ? If only they would calm down,let the Iraquis form a government, which even they cant agree about, then I have faith in the fact that peace ought to prevail. In Iraq at least. Am I wrong ?

Aquilifer -> RE: Relying on Faith Instead of Facts Brought Moral Calamity (4/13/2008 5:19:13 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro The framing of this war in the context of a war between Christians in the west, and Muslims in the middle-east sets a very dangerous tone for ongoing madness. Maybe it's not precisely the solution, but I think it's wise to acknowledge that there was some severely flawed rhetoric being used to beat the drums of war. The problem with basing a decision to go to war on lies is that you MUST start handing out big jugs of Kool-Aid everytime you, or any of your people, talks within earshot of the press, or anyone who is, or might become, one of your political enemies. And when you start passing out the Kool-Aid like that, it's completely inevitable that you end up drinking it yourself. That's the point where every calculation you make starts getting tainted by false input data. This specifically includes every calculation you make in support of your war. So your strategy goes hopelessly insane. Garbage in, garbage out. That will probably be enough to insure that the war is going to be hopeless right from the git-go, even if nothing else wrecks it. Examples that practically leap out at you: Southern Confederacy in the American Civil War. Japanese Empire in the Pacific Theatre of WW II (once they had committed to engaging the Americans)

Aquilifer -> RE: Relying on Faith Instead of Facts Brought Moral Calamity (4/13/2008 5:48:39 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave Well I have faith in the fact that over the last 3/4 years or so the violence in Iraq has been sustained by Islamic fundamentalists. What say you ? The branch of al Queda in Iraq consists of radical Salfists, and it really isn't clear that the term "fundamentalist" applies. It most certainly is not the case that most of the violence has been sustained by this group, whether you call them "fundamentalists" or not. quote: If only they would calm down,let the Iraquis form a government, which even they cant agree about, then I have faith in the fact that that peace ought to prevail. In Iraq at least. Am I wrong ? Yes. You aren't going to "calm down" people who have been the focus of recent and particularly grotesque ethnic cleansing. This is the means whereby the Shiites turned Baghdad from a city where the Sunnis were the ethnic majority into a city where they barely have a presence at all. This was partially accomplished through the Mahdi Army, but more effectively and systematically through the Interior Ministry. And the Shiites aren't going to just go away. Their beef with the Sunni, who are a minority in the country as a whole, has to do with the fact that the Sunni were the political core support that Saddam Hussein counted upon, at a time when the Shia were effectively disenfranchised. When the US invaded, they saw their chance and grabbed it with both hands. There are also multiple factions within the Shiites community as a whole, and they are quite capable of killing each other by the truckload. For example, the Badr Brigades have strong ties with Iran, while the Mahdi Army does not, and isn't about to acquire any. As for al Queda in Iraq, they have absolutely no friends in Iraq whatsoever. They have gone to fairly ridiculous extremes to alienate the rural Sunni in Anbar Province. See David Kilcullen's piece from last year in Small Wars Journal, at http://smallwarsjournal.com/blog/2007/08/anatomy-of-a-tribal-revolt/. This is why the United States has been able to leverage those same Sunnis against AQI. But the Iraqi Shiites (and Shiites in general, BTW, including the Iranian ones) loathe AQI even more than the Anbar Sunnis do for doctrinal reasons. Specifically, the version of Salafism AQI adheres to considers Shia Islam to be a particularly despicable form of heresy, and they'll kill Shiites with just as much gusto as they would Americans. Naturally, the Shia return these sentiments in the exact same spirit in which they were tendered. The only thing keeping AQI alive in Iraq is the fact that we are there, distracting the attention of Iraqis of every ethnic group native to the country from the throats of AQI, which they dream of slitting. Six months after we pull out, every single last memebr of AQI is either going to be in hiding, fled across the nearest border, or killed. That's generally what happens to completely egregious assholes in the absence of any force effectively protecting them.

RealityLicks -> RE: Relying on Faith Instead of Facts Brought Moral Calamity (4/13/2008 7:11:51 AM)
I think you're right in identifying the media as the replacement for the faith community in a secular society. People view the media to learn how to be, how to see and be made to feel good about these choices. In my view, traditional faith communities can rarely instigate a war in Western societies but looking at the Pope's speech on Islam last year, they certainly can do much to prolong one. His unsubtle condemnation of Islam must have made many of his adherents feel that whatever the cause of the war, prosecuting it vehemently was a survival tactic against a threat to their freedoms.

Owner59 -> RE: Relying on Faith Instead of Facts Brought Moral Calamity (4/13/2008 7:31:04 AM)
Aquilifer, Thanks for the thoughtful words and excellent info, ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Senator McCain actually doesn`t know the difference between Sunni and Shea,doesn`t know that al-1queda is supported and funded by the Saudis and has no clue(other than staying in Iraq)how to get us out of there. And the military is supposed to be his strong suit. [Mod Note: personal attack removed]

NorthernGent -> RE: Relying on Faith Instead of Facts Brought Moral Calamity (4/13/2008 7:32:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Owner59 Senator McCain......doesn`t know that al-1queda is supported and funded by the Saudis and has no clue(other than staying in Iraq)how to get us out of there. I'd wager that Senator McCain knows exactly what is going on.

Owner59 -> RE: Relying on Faith Instead of Facts Brought Moral Calamity (4/13/2008 7:36:13 AM)
Not really,he made the same gaf 4 or 5 times and had to have Sen,Liebermen step up to the microphone to correct him. Thinking about it,after the 3rd correction,he should have gotten it. Maybe you`re right.Lol I hope not.

NorthernGent -> RE: Relying on Faith Instead of Facts Brought Moral Calamity (4/13/2008 7:39:41 AM)
These people have the best researchers money can buy, and they'll be well versed in matters of the ins and outs of existence in potential gold mines. Granted, they may act like they don't have the first clue....

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