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Well, Charley died around 12:45 this afternoon in my arms.

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Well, Charley died around 12:45 this afternoon in my arms.

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it's just that there are -so- many animals up for adoption. It's makes me sad to see more getting thrown into the pool.

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ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

First let me say I also am a huge advocate for spay/nueter of pets. I work with a local shelter and provide discount spay/nuet. certificates for those in need of assistance in paying for the cost. I also work with several vets in a program that traps, spays and releases ferral cats.

Now.. I have questions for those of you who have been some how able to relate spay/nuetering to this case. And I am going to be open minded and say that if anyone can give me one reason or explanation of how nuetering this dog would have prevented it's death, I will re examine my own " harsh posts"

There is little doubt this doggie was sick. Weight loss, decreased appetite, lethargy, diarrhea and vomiting. Please explain how nuetering this doggie would prevent him from this type of ilnness?

As for affording the vet bills. I agree whole heartedly. OP stated she had a temporary setback financially, something most of us can relate to. Both of her dogs are up to date on shots, so obviously this isn't the sign of an irresponsible pet owner.

HOWEVER.... she did take the doggie to the ER vet, which incurred a charge. I assume the vet got a history and did a physical examination. The vet said to get an accurate diagnosis lab work needed to be done. OP explained to vet she could not afford labs that day.. < We all know how the ER vets jack up their prices, because we are at their mercy> This vet sent her and the doggie home, assuring them the doggie would be fine until Monday. She accepted the word of a professional who is supposed to be more knowledgable then she about this.

My questions of ethics and moral obligations lies squarely with the vet. It is customary in most vet. circles, when an animal is in crisis, you do what you can to stabalize and work out a payment plan. If the vet truely believed that the animal was stable, then he made a terrible misjudgement, but bears no responsiblity for the death, IMHO. However... having worked as a nurse and with vets..... you hear the words, diarrhea, vomiting and see a animal or human being who is lethargic... your first thought is : Dehydration, at minimum. IV hydration is a low cost stabalizing treatment that may have insured the doggies life until Monday when he could have gone for a FULL diagnosis and treatment plan, which OP was planning on doing.

I welcome any concrete facts that can show me that nuetering this dog would have prevented it's death. It is vetry clear to me that this doggie died of a disease/illness and that the OP did not neglect the medical care, but that she took the advice of the medical practitioner.

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He eats, drinks without problem. It seems as though something is just eating away at his body like the book "Thinner". I took him to the Doggie ER tonight, but couldn't afford the cost of the blood work. I found a couple of places that work with the AAHA for helping those without the finances to get their dogs medical care, so I will take him there next week (Monday, Tuesday).

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As this was my first experience with doggie mating, I wasn't sure what to do. I knew that you weren't supposed to pull them apart, but my poor Pepper kept screaming everytime one of them moved.

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ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

Sooo.. along those lines... if an avid anti smoker were to go to the funeral of a person who died of lung cancer, it would be perfectly acceptable to give the grieving family a lecture on how smoking causes lung cancer and the deceased was irresponsible?

I am not being smart assed here..I am trying to show how callous some people have been with some one's feelings .

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ORIGINAL: maybemaybenot

ahhh.. in my poor analogy one of the survivors of the deceased may still smoke and is at risk for their poor judgement....

You are right she did not post about the vet saying she could go to the reg. vet on Monday, my mistake. I got that from a private conversation with her late last week.

You make a good point about doing a post mortem on the doggie. perhaps if you had said it in a gentle concerned way, instead of a self righteous, finger pointing way it would have more impact on the OP and all others you are trying to educate.. You presented in a fashion that screams for a defensive reaction. That is not constructive educational approach.

As for the dogs symptoms.. one COULD make a diagnosis that the dog was dehydrated.. and you do not need labs for that.. you can go by the signs and with gentle re hydration you do not risk cardiac overload. that would not be the primary diagnosis.. but the one that was most likely the immediate life threatening condition that the dog may die from. IV hydration... I have done it at home... a 15 minute inservice from the vet.

As I said.. for those who feel the need to educate on spay/nueter.. start a thread about it.. it would be a nice public service thread and i bet you would get lots of info out there.

As you were trying to educate on spay/nueter/breeding... I am trying to educate on manors and kindness.... which I admit I am failing miserably at

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ORIGINAL: HentaiGamerKitty

I don't think anyone was implying that neutering the dog would have saved its life. I'm terribly sorry for her loss, but just couldn't walk on by without commenting on her poor judgement skills. The fact that the dog died is horrible and has nothing to do with the fact that she chose to breed it. However, I make it a personal point to preach the word about responsible breeding at every opportunity.

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ORIGINAL: FLButtSlut

The "holier than thou" perspectives of a good number of people here are really interesting.

So let me give you the "low down" with all the nitty gritty details.

I am working with a THIRD generation poodle breeder for starters, who probably knows more about breeding than the bunch of you combined. That is "strike 1" against all of the "poor judgment" comments. Yes it is my first experience with breeding, but everyone starts somewhere.

AAkasha, you come off as condescending in nearly all of your posts, this isn't the first one. Your posts act as though I have no clue what the financial obligations of owning pets are and that my financial stress has been an ongoing thing, making me the "oh so irresponsbile" pet owner. Obviously, these dogs were not gifts, but purchased by me. They were certainly not inexpensive, so the money came from somewhere. My financial stress is EXTREMELY recent. So recent in fact, that the cost of breeding was not a factor at the time of breeding.

Perverseangelic,

An "emergency pet fund" is an absolutely wonderful idea. Of course, all "emergency" funds at this point, i.e. rental funds, food funds, and even the little bit I had been saving for my son's college have been depleted for unforseen emergencies that have arisen. And yes, it is amazing how so many emergencies could occur in so short a time.

As for "petfinder", the "scads" of poodles that they have are 5 years old or above, with health problems making them difficult to adopt. We looked there (and places like them) when we first decided to get dogs. While YOU didn't say it, and before anyone else does, why would I want to adopt a dog with health problems that needs special care for the remainder of its life? All the "die hard" animal lover here whining about the unwanted dogs in shelters can feel free to adopt all of them. Personally, I just don't want a dog who is blind, and with a 12 year old in the house, a dog with a heart condition who needs a "quiet environment" is certainly not suitable for me. That would be "strike 2" on poor judgment.

Thaily, I'm sure in your 4 whole years as an adult (how much of that was spent with mommy and daddy supporting you at university), you have no concept that sometimes things happen and financial trouble occurs unexpectedly. I guess by your standards, my sudden financial problems indicate I should also put my son up for adoption. I think I will stick with taking advice from people who have a clue, which does not include you.

Now for the rest of the sordid story. Right before the dogs mated, I suffered a very bad knee injury, whereby I was laid up on my couch for nearly a month. This occurred WHILE Pepper was in heat. Prior to my injury, the dogs were kept separated quite well with no problems. I would love for all you "holier than thous" to tell me exactly HOW I am supposed to keep them separated when I could barely make it to the bathroom on my own.

Needless to say, being immobile for a month did not do my career a great deal of good. Having just begun with an employer, they decided that my sudden illness was not worth the effort. Welcome to "right to work" state of Florida. While I gave up the career of bartending and waiting tables some time ago, the possibility of doing so again no longer exists as a result of my knee problem. Standing or walking for long periods of time is not an option.

Charley's "mood" started when I began temping to try to make money. The dogs had never been left alone for the entire day before, and poodles are not only among the most intelligent dogs, they are also among the more emotional. Furthermore, the "hyper-puppy" stage does quiet down after a year quite often. So his lethargia and being less the "ADD" dog was not really a big concern. He was still playing, eating and drinking normally, he just wasn't quite as hyper. Given the fact that there were other things going on, his behavior was not seen as him becoming ill. I also don't run my son to the doctor if he has the runs or throws up for a day. For those of you who think that is the proper thing to do, I'm sure that your pediatrician and vet are loving the BMW's that your irresponsible behavior has bought them. That's right, a RESPONSIBLE parent and pet owner knows when something needs medical attention and when it doesn't. An irresponsible one runs out for every cough, sneeze and sloppy poop they see because they have no judgment of their own.

When you have two dogs that regularly weigh about 6.5 pounds each and one is gaining weight, the other's loss is not always very noticeable because you are looking at two extremes. Charley was weighed the beginning of the week, and when I weighed him later in the week and the scale indicated he had lost a pound in a week, I took him to the vet.

NO, I cannot afford an autospy on Charlie, but then again at the moment, I also can't afford groceries. I realize that so many of you will give up your own life or feel that human lives are not nearly as important as an animals, but that is probably only because you are valuing your own life compared to the animals. My son's well being has got to be first priority.

For the record, Pepper is quite healthy. She eats regularly, drinks plenty of water, and even still likes to run her now quite fat belly around to play. She also sleeps quite a bit. Perhaps I should rush to the vet to find out if that is a good thing according to most of you, but knowing that pregnancy with ONE baby can be tiring, I'm sure multiple puppies can be even MORE tiring. Oh yea, and she cries a bit more than usual, but then again, since her and Charley had been constant companions from about 8 weeks, she is grieving for him too.

As for this being a good opportunity to "educate" those who "think it would be "fun" or "cute" to breed puppies", do you spend a lot of time preaching to pregnant teenagers the value of birth control if they have a still born baby? Or do you actually manage to develop some common sense about time and place at some point in your lives?

It seems that the only poor judgment that has occurred here is in that of some of the posters to this thread. As for the risk of the puppies when they come, interestingly enough, at least one is already sold, one will be likely be kept, and if there are any more, given the quality of the parents, they will find homes rather quickly. Oh yea, since I'm sure none of you are really aware of this anyway, a first litter of toy poodles is rarely more than 3 if you get that many.

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As this was my first experience with doggie mating, I wasn't sure what to do. I knew that you weren't supposed to pull them apart, but my poor Pepper kept screaming everytime one of them moved.

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As this was my first experience with doggie mating, I wasn't sure what to do. I knew that you weren't supposed to pull them apart, but my poor Pepper kept screaming everytime one of them moved. I gently tapped Charley on the butt (I have NO idea why I thought a little spanking would diminish his excitement!) and gently tried to pull them apart.

When I finally got them apart, "little" Charley went right into hiding, not to be seen again, literaly.

This is the part of the OP that shocked and concerned me the most. Edited to add...Not to mention the wording of the thread title.

A side from that, I still need to make the conscious choice to hold my tongue

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ORIGINAL: FLButtSlut
You saw your dog as nothing more than a money maker. What a great human being that makes you.

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ORIGINAL: FLButtSlut
Thaily, I'm sure in your 4 whole years as an adult (how much of that was spent with mommy and daddy supporting you at university), you have no concept that sometimes things happen and financial trouble occurs unexpectedly. I guess by your standards, my sudden financial problems indicate I should also put my son up for adoption. I think I will stick with taking advice from people who have a clue, which does not include you.