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RE: Israel refused to guard Jimmy Carter - 4/15/2008 6:03:17 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy
Ridiculous...Total bullshit. Much of the terrorists activities are directly linked to our support of Isreal. What about the billions and billions of dollars that we have spent supporting their regime? We are tied together by the dick.

You are a sharp guy....You see the terrorists as outsiders? Don't they live in a region where they are being oppressed? I'm not giving them a pass. But to not recognize that there are grievances and to possibly attempt to address or correct them seems a rather blind approach...The same kind of shit that lands you in a war in Iraq.

No, when it comes to the conflict between Palestinian and Israeli I see the US as the outsider. I see the UK as the outsider. While the governments of the US and UK may reasonably offer assistance in mediating and bringing about a lasting peace, that does not make the conflict our conflict.

The only people who can claim the conflict as "theirs" live in Gaza, Israel, and the West Bank. Everyone else is an outsider.

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RE: Israel refused to guard Jimmy Carter - 4/15/2008 6:05:21 PM   
domiguy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

If not for the U.S. there would be no Isreal...That is a fact...End of story. Thereby do we not harbor some of the misdeeds of the child?



Israel is at war.  There are heroic and terrible things committed in war.  Historically, how often does the conquerer apologize to the conquered?  That the US are imperialist hypocrites requires no real effort to prove.  This hardly requires prostration; have you ever apologized, personally, for what happened to the indigenous people of North America?  Me either.

The trouble with conversations on this topic is that there's one baby and two mothers.  A two state solution is generally accepted as required.  For this to take place, both sides must find a way to agree and make peace.  So long as the baby is worth more alive, than dead, the greater powers that be will continue to hold the sword over her, and babies deemed less valuable will be sacrificed in her 'defense.'

quote:

ust wait another ten to fifteen years.


I doubt it.  As I said, the only reason we meddle in the Middle East, is because there's oil.  Unless we come up with a new form of energy that will power our SUVs in the bush of Africa, it's unlikely there will be sufficiant interest for us to meddle adequately in Africa.

Stephan



You missed my point...The Africans will come to us. They will be an uneducated mass of millions looking for something to do...They will inevitably blame us for their lot in life...Goodbye Africans...Hello to a new wave of terrorists.

The Arabs are probably a little pissed that we have been a major allie to the Isrealis...

Stephan the difference is that we fucked the Native Americans long ago...What is transpiring now is under our current watch.


If some "super power" came in and decided to back the Native Americans and give them their old stomping grounds of New York I don't think we would be too fucking thrilled...I don't know what we would do...But it is possible that to this new "super power" our actions might be viewed as one of terror...Much like those of our forefathers.


Nonetheless, I see no harm in having a dialogue. We should learn as much about what drives our enemies as our allies...Where is the harm?

< Message edited by domiguy -- 4/15/2008 6:07:02 PM >

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RE: Israel refused to guard Jimmy Carter - 4/15/2008 6:09:40 PM   
domiguy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy
Ridiculous...Total bullshit. Much of the terrorists activities are directly linked to our support of Isreal. What about the billions and billions of dollars that we have spent supporting their regime? We are tied together by the dick.

You are a sharp guy....You see the terrorists as outsiders? Don't they live in a region where they are being oppressed? I'm not giving them a pass. But to not recognize that there are grievances and to possibly attempt to address or correct them seems a rather blind approach...The same kind of shit that lands you in a war in Iraq.

No, when it comes to the conflict between Palestinian and Israeli I see the US as the outsider. I see the UK as the outsider. While the governments of the US and UK may reasonably offer assistance in mediating and bringing about a lasting peace, that does not make the conflict our conflict.

The only people who can claim the conflict as "theirs" live in Gaza, Israel, and the West Bank. Everyone else is an outsider.



Really? Lacks insight to the problem. This is why we find ourselves deep in so much shit...We still would like to be isolationists....You help to provide the weapons of my demise...You are in part just as culpable as those holding them. It's that easy, shouldn't be to hard to wrap your mind around.


< Message edited by domiguy -- 4/15/2008 6:10:04 PM >

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RE: Israel refused to guard Jimmy Carter - 4/15/2008 6:15:27 PM   
celticlord2112


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ORIGINAL: camille65
What gets me, is on this site most people scream about the importance of communication. Whole threads are dedicated to it. This is communcation that is vital on a much larger scale and I for one am pissed off that Israel is allowed and actually encouraged to pull this crap.

Israel is more than a bit confrontational when dealing with Hamas, arguably to the detriment of a lasting peace. However, their refusal to safeguard Carter while he's talking uninvited to a seemingly implacable opponent of Israel, their position is not entirely unfathomable. Given the hardened postures of both groups, it makes sense.

Frankly, I'm surprised Carter pulled that stunt. He has direct experience with how difficult it is to get the opposing parties in that part of the world to sit down at a negotiating table and actually talk peace. Pissing off Israel just to score points with Hamas not only doesn't end the conflict, it polarizes it.

Forget who's guilty of what sin between Israel and Hamas. If Carter wanted to get the two sides to come to a peaceful resolution of their conflicts, this was the absolute wrong way to go about it. Strategically stupid and tactically dumb.

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RE: Israel refused to guard Jimmy Carter - 4/15/2008 6:32:30 PM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy
Really? Lacks insight to the problem. This is why we find ourselves deep in so much shit...We still would like to be isolationists....You help to provide the weapons of my demise...You are in part just as culpable as those holding them. It's that easy, shouldn't be to hard to wrap your mind around.

Who said anything about isolationism? Saying that the conflict is not ours is not isolationist. It means that the conflict is not ours.

There is a difference between being involved and making it personal.

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RE: Israel refused to guard Jimmy Carter - 4/15/2008 6:37:25 PM   
dcnovice


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quote:

As I said, the only reason we meddle in the Middle East, is because there's oil. 


Oil clearly plays a key role in the Middle East, but do you think it's really a factor in our support of Israel?

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RE: Israel refused to guard Jimmy Carter - 4/15/2008 6:39:50 PM   
domiguy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy
Really? Lacks insight to the problem. This is why we find ourselves deep in so much shit...We still would like to be isolationists....You help to provide the weapons of my demise...You are in part just as culpable as those holding them. It's that easy, shouldn't be to hard to wrap your mind around.

Who said anything about isolationism? Saying that the conflict is not ours is not isolationist. It means that the conflict is not ours.

There is a difference between being involved and making it personal.


Why would you think that any clear thinking Arab would not view our support of Isreal as problematic?

Please explain?

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RE: Israel refused to guard Jimmy Carter - 4/15/2008 7:05:11 PM   
Stephann


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Status: offline 		You missed my point...The Africans will come to us. They will be an uneducated mass of millions looking for something to do...They will inevitably blame us for their lot in life...Goodbye Africans...Hello to a new wave of terrorists.

I think I do see your point.  The flips side, is that the United States sends more private and public charitable assistance to other countries (including Africa) than any other country.  Have-nots will always look at people who have, and blame them for their lot; the difference is that we aren't responsible for kidnapping, trying, and executing their leaders, nor will we so long as there's nothing of value, to us.

The Arabs are probably a little pissed that we have been a major allie to the Isrealis...

Some are, some aren't.  I don't see Jordan, Kuwait, or Egypt rioting in the streets or burning US flags.  Israel represents Iran's nemesis; Iran grows stronger, so long as there is the Big Bad Israelies.

Stephan the difference is that we fucked the Native Americans long ago...What is transpiring now is under our current watch.

The Israelis fucked the Palistinians long ago as well.  They continue to fuck them, as we continue to fuck the Native Americans; the difference is the Palistinians don't get government handouts to build casinos.  Palistine was a casualty of the six day war.  The people who lost their homes in the 60s will never have them back, no matter how much Iran promises them they will.  They will either sign a deal to accept what Israel gives them, or they will continue to have their children strapped with bombs and sent into markets.

If some "super power" came in and decided to back the Native Americans and give them their old stomping grounds of New York I don't think we would be too fucking thrilled...I don't know what we would do...But it is possible that to this new "super power" our actions might be viewed as one of terror...Much like those of our forefathers.

If China decided to do this, they could easily use the oppression of the Native Americans as an excuse to free the world from our evil ways, arm the Africans, and send them to do battle for Manhattan.


Nonetheless, I see no harm in having a dialogue. We should learn as much about what drives our enemies as our allies...Where is the harm?

No harm at all, good man.  It's when the dialog degenerates to "idiot, how can you be so stupid as to think that way?" that I take issue with.  Ask Jon Stewert and Tucker Carson what happens when dialogue dengenerates into pure partisan discussions.

Stephan

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RE: Israel refused to guard Jimmy Carter - 4/15/2008 8:18:03 PM   
Termyn8or


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Status: offline 		Hmmmm.

Sometimes I wonder. Isn't anyone aware of the book Carter wrote called "Peace Not Apartheid" ? It was called every name in the book by every Jewish group in the US.

Yet nobody has ever heard of it ? I believe it is available on Amazon.

T

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RE: Israel refused to guard Jimmy Carter - 4/15/2008 9:30:41 PM   
FirmhandKY


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Status: offline 		Another interesting take on "the Carter experience":


Looking Back at Life
By Ed Koch
April 15, 2008

 Ford lost to Jimmy Carter. I came to know Carter well.

When he ran for reelection, he asked me to campaign for him in 1980 - I was by then Mayor of New York City -- and I said that I would vote for him, but not campaign for him because he was then engaging in hostile acts towards Israel. I was popular with the Jewish community and when I would not campaign for him unless he changed his position, he called me to his hotel in New York when attending a fundraiser and said, "You have done me more damage than any man in America." I felt proud then, and even more today, since we now know what a miserable president he was then and the miserable human being he is now as he prepares to meet with Hamas.

Firm

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RE: Israel refused to guard Jimmy Carter - 4/15/2008 9:53:50 PM   
domiguy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY

Another interesting take on "the Carter experience":


Looking Back at Life
By Ed Koch
April 15, 2008

 Ford lost to Jimmy Carter. I came to know Carter well.

When he ran for reelection, he asked me to campaign for him in 1980 - I was by then Mayor of New York City -- and I said that I would vote for him, but not campaign for him because he was then engaging in hostile acts towards Israel. I was popular with the Jewish community and when I would not campaign for him unless he changed his position, he called me to his hotel in New York when attending a fundraiser and said, "You have done me more damage than any man in America." I felt proud then, and even more today, since we now know what a miserable president he was then and the miserable human being he is now as he prepares to meet with Hamas.

Firm


I like the part where Ed Koch refers to Carter as "the miserable human being he is now" what a crock of shit. Yeah Carter had a rough go as President....what he has done since leaving office has been nothing short of astounding. A true humanitarian.

Unlike many I don't hold ill well for past Republican Presidents...I think that fellow in office now his dad is actually a damn decent man....He, too, had a bit of a rough go of it.

Where is the damage in meeting with Hamas? I just don't see it. It is beneath the dignity of the offfice? What if inroads can actually be made? Isn't it at least worth the effort?

Let's ignore our enemies...It seems to work well. I don't think that Castro regime is going to last much longer. Obviously our ignoring them has lead to their ultimate demise. It's time we get our heads out of our asses and try to glean some insight into the workings of our enemies. Maybe something can be gained. I really don't see the downside.

But you are probably right...it legitimizes their organizations and emboldens the terrorists....They seem rather bold and it appears as much as we would like to ignore them I unfortunately believe that what we do has little impact on whether they are viewed as legitimate or not. It appears that they are still finding recruits.




< Message edited by domiguy -- 4/15/2008 9:54:09 PM >

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RE: Israel refused to guard Jimmy Carter - 4/16/2008 2:45:26 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

Who said anything about isolationism? Saying that the conflict is not ours is not isolationist. It means that the conflict is not ours.

There is a difference between being involved and making it personal.


You still havent answered my earlier question. How many Americans have to die before it becomes personal ?  Killing your people makes it your conflict.

On the subject of Carter, he is an ex president and should be afforded the same protocols as everyone else. The fact Israel choose not to do so, is an affront to the office of president as much as anything. Would it be acceptable for any regime, that didnt agree with any ex presidents viewpoints, to withdraw security ?

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RE: Israel refused to guard Jimmy Carter - 4/16/2008 4:06:19 AM   
Level


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quote:

"I think that it's very important that at least someone meet with the Hamas leaders to express their views, to ascertain what flexibility they have, to try to induce them to stop all attacks against innocent civilians in Israel and to cooperate with the Fatah as a group that unites the Palestinians, maybe to get them to agree to a cease-fire — things of this kind," he said.

The State Department says it advised Carter twice against meeting representatives of Hamas, which Washington considers a terrorist organization.

"I find it hard to understand what is going to be gained by having discussions with Hamas about peace when Hamas is, in fact, the impediment to peace," Rice said Friday, after reports of the planned meeting surfaced.

Carter said he'd be meeting Syrians, Egyptians, Jordanians, Saudi Arabians and others "who might have to play a crucial role in any future peace agreement that involves the Middle East."

Asked whether it was right to meet a group that has not renounced violence or recognized Israel, he said, "Well, you can't always get prerequisites adopted by other people before you even talk to them."


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080413/ap_on_re_us/carter_mideast

While I agree with President Carter, I hold little hope that his effort there will bear much fruit.
 
It is a shame Shin Bet declined to offer their assistance to Carter. I understand their point of view, but they should have risen above those feelings.

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RE: Israel refused to guard Jimmy Carter - 4/16/2008 4:52:00 AM   
camille65


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Status: offline 		 Good morning Level.  Your post summed up why I started the thread and my feelings about it.
Ahhh beautiful sunshiney day today.

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RE: Israel refused to guard Jimmy Carter - 4/16/2008 10:48:06 AM   
celticlord2112


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy
Why would you think that any clear thinking Arab would not view our support of Isreal as problematic?

Please explain?

A few points here:

1 Considering how the US provides military aid and arms to Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, and Jordan, in addition to Israel, I would say that US support of Israel is not exactly troublesome for the "clear thinking" Arabs, and certainly for the governments of Arab nations.

2. France and Great Britain cultivated closer ties with Israel in response to the Suez Crisis, and Nasser moved Egypt closer to the Soviet Union as a consequence in order to further his own ambitions in the Middle East.

3. While Zionists engaged in guerilla and even terrorist activities in the then British Mandate of Palestine in 1946 and 1947, it is also true that Arab groups, such as the Arab Higher Committee, had been very cozy with Nazi Germany during WWII, advancing an anti-Semitic posture and advocating all Muslims ally with the Nazis to destroy their "common enemy"--the Jewish people already living in Palestine.

4. The Arab Legion of Transjordan was trained and equipped by the British, and used to fight against the nascent Israeli forces in 1948.

5. US and European support of Middle Eastern nations has always been more a matter of realpolitik than any preference or hostility towards any one political or ethnic grouping. The primary driving forces behind early US policies in the Middle East were the oil fields of the Persian Gulf and containing Soviet expansionism in the region.

All of which underscores the reality that while the US has a decided security interest in seeing peace in the Middle East, the conflicts within that part of the globe, particularly as relates to the Palestinians, are regional and local, not global. The United States is very much the outsider to these conflicts, and a sensible foreign policy towards that region should reflect that.

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RE: Israel refused to guard Jimmy Carter - 4/16/2008 10:52:47 AM   
celticlord2112


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ORIGINAL: Politesub53
You still havent answered my earlier question. How many Americans have to die before it becomes personal ? Killing your people makes it your conflict.

If we're going to use that logic, then the proper US policy should be to send an overflight of gunships to Gaza and the West Bank and eradicate Hamas and Hezbollah.

Is that the resolution you desire?

It's not the resolution I desire.

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RE: Israel refused to guard Jimmy Carter - 4/16/2008 11:23:02 AM   
Politesub53


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53
You still havent answered my earlier question. How many Americans have to die before it becomes personal ? Killing your people makes it your conflict.

If we're going to use that logic, then the proper US policy should be to send an overflight of gunships to Gaza and the West Bank and eradicate Hamas and Hezbollah.

Is that the resolution you desire?

It's not the resolution I desire.


You are stating your logic here and not mine. The west is part of the problem, therefore it has to be part of the soloution. I am neither pro-Arab or pro-Israeli in this. You stated it wasnt personal, my assertion is that when it brings terror attacks to my country, then its personal.

If there isnt a peacful settlement then there wont be any settlement. The cycle will just continue. Carter is making the right move by trying to open dialogue, and lest we forget, he did broker peace between Israel and Egypt.


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RE: Israel refused to guard Jimmy Carter - 4/16/2008 12:19:08 PM   
celticlord2112


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ORIGINAL: Politesub53
You are stating your logic here and not mine. The west is part of the problem, therefore it has to be part of the soloution. I am neither pro-Arab or pro-Israeli in this. You stated it wasnt personal, my assertion is that when it brings terror attacks to my country, then its personal.

If there isnt a peacful settlement then there wont be any settlement. The cycle will just continue. Carter is making the right move by trying to open dialogue, and lest we forget, he did broker peace between Israel and Egypt.

Making it personal means taking sides. If I'm going to get personal with someone attempting to kill me and mine, I'm going to be removing that threat by whatever means necessary, casualty lists be damned.

Being involved by brokering a peace means being most impersonal. Brokering a peace means being objective to the issues/complaints/concerns of both sides. "Obective" is many things, but "personal" does not number among them.

And that's where Carter screwed the pooch with his grandstanding trip. It doesn't do a damn bit of good to embrace Hamas and snub Israel. Either both sit down at the negotiating table or neither of them do. There is no third option there. Acting outside the aegis and auspices of both the US and Israeli governments should have made Carter realize that all he's doing is stirring up the pot without advancing a credible path for both to return to the negotiating table.

If he wanted to be productive, the proper way would have been for him to do the meetings in secret, out of the public eye, with no one the wiser, and engage in the type of sub rosa shuttle diplomacy that allows both sides to discuss what it takes to get back to the negotiating table. Grandstanding is great political theater but bad diplomacy. And Carter of all people should know that.

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RE: Israel refused to guard Jimmy Carter - 4/16/2008 4:00:21 PM   
Level


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quote:

ORIGINAL: camille65

 Good morning Level.  Your post summed up why I started the thread and my feelings about it.
Ahhh beautiful sunshiney day today.


Hi there camille  Good thread, very interesting. And yes, it has been a magnificent day here, too.

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RE: Israel refused to guard Jimmy Carter - 4/16/2008 4:26:42 PM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		I didnt read that Carter snubbed Israel. I read he had visited a town hit by Hammas rockets. Making it personal can be solved by talks, just as well as violence, imo.

From what i have read the US want Fatah to have control, wouldnt that be interfering in a democratically elected government ? Part of the problem is too many outside parties have an interest.

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