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RE: Feminism and Submission - 4/19/2008 12:53:27 PM   
blacksword404


Posts: 2068
Joined: 1/4/2008
Status: offline 		Tired of men telling them what to do some women embrace feminism and then they are now the ones telling all women what to do, how they should behave. And apparantly freedom means you have to sleep with everything that moves. i find it amusing. I knew there was a reason i always like the book animal farm.

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Profile   Post #: 41
RE: Feminism and Submission - 4/19/2008 2:12:08 PM   
Faramir


Posts: 1043
Joined: 2/12/2005
Status: offline 		"Feminism & submission," "Christianity & submission," hell I even seen "Buddhism & submission."  But none of them are really "<blank> & submission,"--they are all framed as "<blank> OR submission, as opposed opposites that need reconciling.  Maybe there are AND issues--maybe a Christian or Buddhist or existentialist or whatever needs to inform their BDSM activities with guidelines, strictures or values from another prt of their live.  But these aren't opposites.

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Profile   Post #: 42
RE: Feminism and Submission - 4/21/2008 1:30:58 PM   
giveeverything


Posts: 348
Joined: 9/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

I have had a bad lot with feminists - who knew?
It's the whole claim about women being given the choice - and then trying to take my choice away or belittle it by saying I am not supporting women if I chose my choice.
 
I got where I am today without the need to be a feminist and relying on someone elses doctrines and using some label or pillar as a crutch.  And where I am today .fuckingrocks.
 
the.dark.

 
I don't want to step on your toes (mostly because you seem to be so popular here -- weird left over high school bullshit) but it's strange to have someone talk about me in a way where I don't recognize myself.  If you want to use some straw man argument about how feminists are .. good for you... just keep in mind, the feminisim you're describing is not mine.  Maybe I'm having a bad day or maybe this was really offensive bullshit.
 
 

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Profile   Post #: 43
RE: Feminism and Submission - 4/21/2008 1:32:57 PM   
giveeverything


Posts: 348
Joined: 9/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: blacksword404

Tired of men telling them what to do some women embrace feminism and then they are now the ones telling all women what to do, how they should behave. And apparantly freedom means you have to sleep with everything that moves. i find it amusing. I knew there was a reason i always like the book animal farm.


Once again.. I do not recognize this form of feminism.  I might add that I think you've bought into a lot of propaganda about feminism and feminists.... if you really want to know what feminist and I mean contemporary feminists think... start actually listening to them, not their detractors. 

(in reply to blacksword404)
Profile   Post #: 44
RE: Feminism and Submission - 4/21/2008 1:37:03 PM   
giveeverything


Posts: 348
Joined: 9/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: StormsSlave

Feminism irritates me.  Not because of what it started out to be or what it should be, but what it has become.  I agree that it should be about choices.  If I want to work, great.  If I want to stay home, great.  As long as I am not a burden on society either way, it's not really society's business.  When I was a stay at home mom, I nearly lost my mind, but that was me.  Domesticity eludes me.  However, I wish I could be a part time worker and home more often.  Hell, I'd have more time to babble on here, not to mention persue my other hobbies.  When life gives me the opportunity to do so, I think that there is the path that I will take.

As for being submissive (or dominant) to man/woman in your life, I'm sure that this is what feminism is for.  To let us be the woman we EACH think we are.  If we can't pick that most basic thing, well, what's the point?


I might just add, as this is my last post else I will annoy everyone around me -- feminists, by and large, are the contemporary push in getting better child care, welfare rights for single moms increased, etc etc.  You will not find a more ernest group of people working to insure women and men have resources so they can make choices.  I really think the clouded ideas come from propagnada not from reality.

(in reply to StormsSlave)
Profile   Post #: 45
RE: Feminism and Submission - 4/21/2008 1:46:11 PM   
Aynne


Posts: 740
Joined: 1/25/2008
Status: offline 		Giveeverything,

Absolutely not. Not annoying in the least.
Your prior 3 posts were well stated and accurate. They may not speak to all,they don't have to, but sometimes the things we do for the greater good of a group of people are not appreciated or even recognized, but the feminist movement has not been about getting back pats, it has been about equaltiy and a better life for women, children and yes men as well.  So meanwhile, they can debate the word feminist back and forth all day long, frankly I don't care, I know that these "anti-feminist" women would come unhinged at the first sign of a hard earned right  stripped from them.  What do you mean you want to vote?  You want equal pay? No sexual harrassment from your jackass boss and protection from reporting it? Childcare, access to safe birthcontrol?  Who the hell do you think did that? Republicans.....? You gotta be kidding me.  Thank a feminist. 
GE, this irritated me too 


quote:

ORIGINAL: giveeverything

quote:

ORIGINAL: StormsSlave

Feminism irritates me.  Not because of what it started out to be or what it should be, but what it has become.  I agree that it should be about choices.  If I want to work, great.  If I want to stay home, great.  As long as I am not a burden on society either way, it's not really society's business.  When I was a stay at home mom, I nearly lost my mind, but that was me.  Domesticity eludes me.  However, I wish I could be a part time worker and home more often.  Hell, I'd have more time to babble on here, not to mention persue my other hobbies.  When life gives me the opportunity to do so, I think that there is the path that I will take.

As for being submissive (or dominant) to man/woman in your life, I'm sure that this is what feminism is for.  To let us be the woman we EACH think we are.  If we can't pick that most basic thing, well, what's the point?


I might just add, as this is my last post else I will annoy everyone around me -- feminists, by and large, are the contemporary push in getting better child care, welfare rights for single moms increased, etc etc.  You will not find a more ernest group of people working to insure women and men have resources so they can make choices.  I really think the clouded ideas come from propagnada not from reality.


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(in reply to giveeverything)
Profile   Post #: 46
RE: Feminism and Submission - 4/21/2008 2:32:05 PM   
tigerlilies69


Posts: 4
Joined: 9/29/2005
Status: offline 		I think I can very much relate to you Monkey.  I too was raised to stand on my own and with the added bonus of NEVER rely on any man 100%.  Consequently I spent years subconciously picking Dominant style relationships, all the while bucking the system because of my upbringing echoing in the back of my head.  As others on here have stated, feminism is about empowerment.  Empowering yourself to be what YOU choose.  I think that there is also the issue of Submissive vs Co-dependent.  My Master and I were discussing this just last night and the difference between the two that so many don't realize.  Being submissive to someone is a choice and having a strong foundation of your own is what makes that submission desirable and fulfilling.  Submitting to someone out of neediness, desperation, and/or pure insecurity is Co-dependence.  That is where it is no longer becoming to a feminist or submissive women. 

(in reply to Monkeyontuesday)
Profile   Post #: 47
RE: Feminism and Submission - 4/21/2008 2:33:14 PM   
colouredin


Posts: 4279
Joined: 2/2/2007
Status: offline 		well maybe its actually an opinion based on experiance, I have met feminists (maybe its simply those that talk loudest are the ones with the most fucked up opinions) but to be honest the ones I have met fit mostly neatly into the.darknesses assertation

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Profile   Post #: 48
RE: Feminism and Submission - 4/21/2008 2:38:50 PM   
OmegaG


Posts: 1474
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: giveeverything

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

I have had a bad lot with feminists - who knew?
It's the whole claim about women being given the choice - and then trying to take my choice away or belittle it by saying I am not supporting women if I chose my choice.
 
I got where I am today without the need to be a feminist and relying on someone elses doctrines and using some label or pillar as a crutch.  And where I am today .fuckingrocks.
 
the.dark.

 
I don't want to step on your toes (mostly because you seem to be so popular here -- weird left over high school bullshit) but it's strange to have someone talk about me in a way where I don't recognize myself.  If you want to use some straw man argument about how feminists are .. good for you... just keep in mind, the feminisim you're describing is not mine.  Maybe I'm having a bad day or maybe this was really offensive bullshit.
 
 


There is a female law professor who works on the same campus that I do that beleives that women cannot enjoy sex, that everytime a woman has sex she is either submitting to men for gain or she is being raped.  She feels that a "true feminist" would live without a personal relationship with men.

I'm trying to remember the name of a famous feminist who has the same extreme views-- Dworkin maybe?  There are feminists who leave a bad taste in people's mouths and they are usually the most vocal.  The moderates generally don't take up arms and don't gain all the publicity.

They aren't speaking for the majority of women, but they'd like to think so and they present themselves as if they did.

_____________________________


Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable. Sydney J. Harris

Sex without pain is like food without taste.
- de Sade

(in reply to giveeverything)
Profile   Post #: 49
RE: Feminism and Submission - 4/21/2008 2:42:19 PM   
colouredin


Posts: 4279
Joined: 2/2/2007
Status: offline 		I used to have a lecturer that said that there was no such thing as Male rape or Domestic violence on men, that they were just weak that those things were exclusivly women and a sign of how we are oppressed

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Profile   Post #: 50
RE: Feminism and Submission - 4/21/2008 2:48:39 PM   
brightspot


Posts: 3052
Status: offline 		I don't think I would label myself a Feminist, still I am a very secure, strong, independent, have my opinion's and belief's, I don't take much crap from everyday people, do just as I please when I am single.
 
But, let me meet the right Domina and I am mush in her hands. I am totally devoted to her plan of action and take much pleasure in her authority over me. Wouldn't and couldn't have it any other way.
 
Missy.

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Profile   Post #: 51
RE: Feminism and Submission - 4/21/2008 4:55:12 PM   
Aynne


Posts: 740
Joined: 1/25/2008
Status: offline 		 
OmegaG,

Andrea Dworkin has been attributed to that phrase, but actually it is reported to have come from Catherine McKinnon, another famous feminist. However, she never said that and it was an attempt by the Porn Industry to quiet her ( imagine that! ). Please see the snopes article link if you like. It is unfortunate that this type of propaganda is spread to quiet women.          http://www.snopes.com/quotes/mackinnon.asp

Not all feminists have issues with men or sex, any more than all people in this lifestyle are promiscous and immoral.  I hear both of these stereotypes perpetuated far too often.

quote:

ORIGINAL: OmegaG

quote:

ORIGINAL: giveeverything

quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

I have had a bad lot with feminists - who knew?
It's the whole claim about women being given the choice - and then trying to take my choice away or belittle it by saying I am not supporting women if I chose my choice.
 
I got where I am today without the need to be a feminist and relying on someone elses doctrines and using some label or pillar as a crutch.  And where I am today .fuckingrocks.
 
the.dark.

 
I don't want to step on your toes (mostly because you seem to be so popular here -- weird left over high school bullshit) but it's strange to have someone talk about me in a way where I don't recognize myself.  If you want to use some straw man argument about how feminists are .. good for you... just keep in mind, the feminisim you're describing is not mine.  Maybe I'm having a bad day or maybe this was really offensive bullshit.
 
 


There is a female law professor who works on the same campus that I do that beleives that women cannot enjoy sex, that everytime a woman has sex she is either submitting to men for gain or she is being raped.  She feels that a "true feminist" would live without a personal relationship with men.

I'm trying to remember the name of a famous feminist who has the same extreme views-- Dworkin maybe?  There are feminists who leave a bad taste in people's mouths and they are usually the most vocal.  The moderates generally don't take up arms and don't gain all the publicity.

They aren't speaking for the majority of women, but they'd like to think so and they present themselves as if they did.


_____________________________

*Yes I know I have no profile at this time...

I looked in your eyes
Without saying a word
I told you what I am
And I hoped that you heard

~Owned and Loved by Master Sifu~

*founder of I Love Lushy Inc.*

(in reply to OmegaG)
Profile   Post #: 52
RE: Feminism and Submission - 4/21/2008 5:00:03 PM   
giveeverything


Posts: 348
Joined: 9/4/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OmegaG




There is a female law professor who works on the same campus that I do that beleives that women cannot enjoy sex, that everytime a woman has sex she is either submitting to men for gain or she is being raped.  She feels that a "true feminist" would live without a personal relationship with men.

I'm trying to remember the name of a famous feminist who has the same extreme views-- Dworkin maybe?  There are feminists who leave a bad taste in people's mouths and they are usually the most vocal.  The moderates generally don't take up arms and don't gain all the publicity.

They aren't speaking for the majority of women, but they'd like to think so and they present themselves as if they did.


Dworkin -- her work is how old now?  And there are contemporary feminists theorists who have torn apart her sex negative attitudes.  But we don't hear about them.  We just hear this "I heard this lady once" that make feminists into boogey men.  Colorid In... dark... sorry you don't know any other feminist other than some worn out sterotypes.  I don't know what circles you're in.  Maybe you should branch out.

(in reply to OmegaG)
Profile   Post #: 53
RE: Feminism and Submission - 4/21/2008 5:11:21 PM   
giveeverything


Posts: 348
Joined: 9/4/2007
Status: offline 		and now for something completely different --- addressing the OP and not bashing feminists....

I have to say, for me, some of the submissive thrill is the juxtaposition of my life as a strong, independent woman and my need to sexually submmisive.  Frankly, I only have been with men who, themselves, openly identify as feminists.  They understand also, and I think maybe for them also it appeals to them, to have this dicotomy.  There is something so delicious in breaking taboos -- even if, or maybe especially if, they are self imposed.  I can't explain it all, and I've been through the "I'm so confused about my feelings stage," and now I"m at the point where it just feels powerful. 

(in reply to giveeverything)
Profile   Post #: 54
RE: Feminism and Submission - 4/21/2008 5:23:57 PM   
RumpusParable


Posts: 1923
Joined: 7/7/2005
From: NYC now!
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Stephann

This is a pretty common question/topic.

What part of having your desires and fantasies fulfilled in the manner you desire isn't feminist in nature?  You're a woman, and entitled to enjoy your body, heart, mind, and soul in any way you choose to.  Feminism in the most important sense, means you have the opportunity to live as you wish, and enjoy your life in the manner you see fit; not some militant lesbian who hates her father, nor some misogynistic dickwad with little man syndrome.

There's honestly nothing to reconcile; so long as you support a woman's right to choose to be however submissive, dominant, vanilla, or kinky as she wishes, you're well within the broad scope of 'feminist.'

Stephan


 
Exactly what I'd intended to say, so just "+1".

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Profile   Post #: 55
RE: Feminism and Submission - 4/21/2008 6:04:40 PM   
FlamingRedhead


Posts: 451
Joined: 3/4/2007
From: Georgia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Monkeyontuesday
Anyway! What are your thoughts on reconciling feminism with submission, be it total or just in the bedroom?

You've gotten some great responses already, but I'll give my $0.02.  I don't think there's anything to reconcile.  Feminism brought us the right to vote, own property, go to school, etc.  You don't have to put up with abuse in the workplace or at home.  You have the same freedoms of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness that everyone else in America has.  If your pursuit of happiness involves being submissive and having kinky sex, so be it.

And anyway, we've already spoken a bit about this, but my problem lies in the fact that I have been raised that no one is gonna take care of me and I have to be able to stand on my own two feet and be the source of strength if you know what hits the fan.

It's fine to be strong, but 2 together are stronger than 1 alone.  We are social creatures.  Otherwise, we'd all be hermits.  Most people have a support system of family and friends.  In a relationship, whether vanilla or kinky, we hold each other up and offer encouragement when the going gets tough.

I understand all of this is possible in a D/s relationship, but I suppose it is the dynamic that is still throwing me. I am expected to do certain tasks by a specific time. Sometimes I enjoy it, and sometimes it annoys me. Maybe I'm still a teenager rebelling against authority? LOLZ. Not really.. The bruises on my ass really hurt that time...

Resistance is futile.  You will obey.  muahahahahahahahahahaha  All kidding aside, though, there is always resistance.  Hopefully, your dominant will, through communication, figure out why and then help you change your thought process and, in the end, your behavior.  It's not easy to always put someone else first.  Submission is a gift because it's hard won, and one of the most unselfish things you can do is give of yourself.



_____________________________

I'm so addicted to
All the things you do
When you're going down on me
In between the sheets
Or the sound you make
With every breath you take
It's unlike anything
When you're loving me

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Profile   Post #: 56
RE: Feminism and Submission - 4/21/2008 6:43:18 PM   
batshalom


Posts: 1990
Joined: 9/17/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Monkeyontuesday

I understand all of this is possible in a D/s relationship, but I suppose it is the dynamic that is still throwing me. I am expected to do certain tasks by a specific time. Sometimes I enjoy it, and sometimes it annoys me.


And when it annoys you to do it, that's when you try harder. If it gives you that seriously awesome "I did it!" feeling, it will stop annoying you so often. I'm a pretty headstrong feminist sub m'self but once I figured out what submission was all about (submitting even when i didn't feel like it) ... mmmmmm ... brand new world. Hope you find your bliss.

(in reply to Monkeyontuesday)
Profile   Post #: 57
RE: Feminism and Submission - 4/21/2008 6:55:02 PM   
OmegaG


Posts: 1474
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne


OmegaG,

Andrea Dworkin has been attributed to that phrase, but actually it is reported to have come from Catherine McKinnon, another famous feminist. However, she never said that and it was an attempt by the Porn Industry to quiet her ( imagine that! ). Please see the snopes article link if you like. It is unfortunate that this type of propaganda is spread to quiet women.          http://www.snopes.com/quotes/mackinnon.asp

Not all feminists have issues with men or sex, any more than all people in this lifestyle are promiscous and immoral.  I hear both of these stereotypes perpetuated far too often.




I attributed nothing to Dworkin, I said she had extreme views.  The law professor is spewing her views at this time, I heard her speak by accident last year.

In all honesty, I do tend to stay away from feminist boards because they erupt in one twue wayisms more frequently then these boards do. 

_____________________________


Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it is regret for the things we did not do that is inconsolable. Sydney J. Harris

Sex without pain is like food without taste.
- de Sade

(in reply to Aynne)
Profile   Post #: 58
RE: Feminism and Submission - 4/21/2008 7:33:10 PM   
MadameMarque


Posts: 1128
Joined: 3/19/2005
Status: offline 		Feminism is about freedom from limitations that are imposed by people's preconceptions about what it is to be female.  That's partly about having the right to choose, rather than have your life chosen for you, based on your gender.

In order to be at one with your own decisions, you have to feel the reality that it's what you want, and not just your giving in to some feminine gender role. 

But that's not the only thing that's going on, for you.  It doesn't help your feeling good about trusting someone else to take charge, that you tend to rush into the intimacy mode, in which you are very vulnerable, before you really know someone and are bonded to them.  You say you've been drawn repeatedly to people who, as it develops, aren't worthy of your trust, as well. 

When you're vulnerable to someone and it goes well, it makes you feel great and affirmed and powerful, even in submission.  When you're vulnerable to someone and it goes badly, it can really make you feel lower-than and doubt yourself, doubt your judgment. 

If you choose to indulge your psychosexual urges, you can feel powerful and excited about that.  But the three things you mention - wondering whether it's self-determination, i.e., feminist, for you as a female, to be submissive; rushing to intimacy and vulnerability; and, being drawn to people unworthy of your trust - these are making you feel disempowered, when you make that choice.

A couple of possible reasons one rushes into intimacy, too much trust, too soon, which may or may not have anything to do with you:

They may be unintentionally distancing themselves from the other person - having an emotionally quickie, if you will, because they crave the intimacy, which makes them think that they want to be close to the other person, but also, they are intensely uncomfortable with actually being close to others, in that sense that is developed over time.

They know how they feel about others very quickly, so they jump to a more intimate level too soon for the other person, who doesn't feel safe, yet.  Sometimes, this can chase people away or make them hostile, because they're still feeling guarded around you.

And sometimes, it's just impatience.  You rush in because you've been waiting to feel what it is you're looking for.


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Profile   Post #: 59
RE: Feminism and Submission - 4/21/2008 7:36:38 PM   
Aynne


Posts: 740
Joined: 1/25/2008
Status: offline 		OmegaG,

Sorry for the confusion, I know you did not attribute it to her, I meant that in a general sense it has been attributed to her incorrectly. She did indeed have extreme views, no question there. 
I agree as well, there is no need to turn this into a divisive topic, easier said than done.  


quote]ORIGINAL: OmegaG

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aynne


OmegaG,

Andrea Dworkin has been attributed to that phrase, but actually it is reported to have come from Catherine McKinnon, another famous feminist. However, she never said that and it was an attempt by the Porn Industry to quiet her ( imagine that! ). Please see the snopes article link if you like. It is unfortunate that this type of propaganda is spread to quiet women.          http://www.snopes.com/quotes/mackinnon.asp

Not all feminists have issues with men or sex, any more than all people in this lifestyle are promiscous and immoral.  I hear both of these stereotypes perpetuated far too often.




I attributed nothing to Dworkin, I said she had extreme views.  The law professor is spewing her views at this time, I heard her speak by accident last year.

In all honesty, I do tend to stay away from feminist boards because they erupt in one twue wayisms more frequently then these boards do. 


_____________________________

*Yes I know I have no profile at this time...

I looked in your eyes
Without saying a word
I told you what I am
And I hoped that you heard

~Owned and Loved by Master Sifu~

*founder of I Love Lushy Inc.*

(in reply to OmegaG)
Profile   Post #: 60
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