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RE: More UK Corruption. - 4/17/2008 4:56:48 AM

kittinSol

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Babe, my hostility towards Thatcher is very much resolved. It's a shame the first woman PM had to be an anti-feminist, machist freak... who was friend with Pinochet... killed the unions... and stole the milk out of infants' mouths in the schools (authentic)... it's a pity the woman in question engaged in the Falklands war just to get reelected... it's rare that I abhor somebody, but Thatcher is one hell of an exception

.

Thankfully for her she has Alzheimer's now, so she doesn't remember much of her actions. All the more shame for the rest of us, who remember everything far too well

.

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Post #: 21

RE: More UK Corruption. - 4/17/2008 5:14:22 AM

LadyEllen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

I can imagine there are many similarities in both business practice terms and contractually. However, the head contractor on large-scale, publicly funded civil engineering programmes has different responsibilities - which is why an enquiry into malpractice is front page news in one case but not in the other.

Ah well, so long as we can feel good about it, let's not bother to actually do any good, eh?

What on earth does that mean?

I expect you dont spare a thought for east European drivers' families who lose everything when their employers go bust from providing services below cost to move the goods you buy in the UK?

And any tears for the same drivers, forced to risk their lives to drive unsafe vehicles and exceed their hours by employers desperate to survive in the market who then get caught by VOSA and spend time in the cells?

Of course not. Everyone knows trucks are responsible for every environmental catastrophe since the Biblical flood, and the transport industry is crooked, right? Still, as long as people feel good about displacing blame, we can all not bother to think any differently, eh?

E

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Post #: 22

RE: More UK Corruption. - 4/17/2008 5:48:17 AM

RealityLicks

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I don't blame truckers for every environmental hazard. Although if you ever go into a transport cafe, there always seems to be plenty of baked beans on the menu.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub 53

It sickens me nothing is done about this. You can bet that none of the major players will get jail time. The company directors all get rich while the tax payer gets shafted.

I've every sympathy for your wickedly-exploited workers and look forward to a thread on that topic but I'm more concerned at present with the widespread failure to meet OECD standards in business, particularly where it impacts on public spending. My reasoning when this area first came under discussion was that many here on CM condemned immigrants or new communities for causing public service shortfalls, when it seems obvious that a far greater strain on the tax-payer is corruption.

I echo PS53's concern that these people are never jailed for the theft of millions and add that poor single mothers regularly are, for stealing mere pennies. Also, these same OECD standards are applied with harsh moral rectitude against developing countries although they are only patchily observed at home. I'd respect those who argue in favour of anti-corruption overseas more if they did so without that holier-than-thou bias.

Look at Gov't borrowing and you'll see why private sector sharp practice is different in its end result to collusion which drains state funds.

< Message edited by RealityLicks -- 4/17/2008 5:57:04 AM >

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Post #: 23

RE: More UK Corruption. - 4/17/2008 6:20:59 AM

LadyEllen

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Public sector price fixing - yes, it means that the exchequer has to pay more. But it also means
- higher turnover for the private companies involved, who then pay more VAT
- higher profits for the private companies involved, who have to pay more corporation tax
- better employment packages for those delivering the construction, hence higher NI and income tax contributions
- reduced social welfare budgets, by way of that employment in contrast with tax credits for low wage work or unemployment

and going back to my points about my industry
- safer conditions for those delivering the construction
- better equipment for those delivering the construction
- more satisfactory construction

Overall, in an industry where there is no USP by which to win business and so by default the competition is based on lowest bid, I would guess that notwithstanding the illegality of the practices involved, the overall public finance nett result is likely zero or slightly positive from engineering the market in this instance.

But its illegal. As such the directors and their agents should be jailed pro rata the normal jail sentences for other forms of fraud on the exchequer. 3 months for a benefit fraud of £1000-00, indicates that for a £1,000,000-00 offence the sentence should be 3000 months (250 years). That it doesnt happen at all indicates that the powers that be know which side the bread is buttered (the same the world over) and all this is for show and out of fear for what the EU might have to say.

Meanwhile its perfectly OK to have dairy farmers go out of business for want of a reasonable price for their milk. Still, any collusion on their part to demand a reasonable price would be the most awful circumstance since 1939, and whats important is that I can buy 4 pints for less than a pound.

The overall point is, that in markets where price is the competitive factor and in commodity markets, there is every reason to have a conference which sets minimum prices such that quality, health and safety, personnel welfare and above all the continuity of the sector can be maintained and developed. If suppliers can meet that minimum price and fulfil their obligations then they will be driven to find better means by which to compete than price, thereby removing the whole problem of market price fixing whether it presents problems to the supply or customer side.

E

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Post #: 24

RE: More UK Corruption. - 4/17/2008 6:32:40 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Politesub53

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7351867.stm

It sickens me nothing is done about this. You can bet that none of the major players will get jail time. The company directors all get rich while the tax payer gets shafted. At least the authorities have finally uncovered this stuff. Not bad considering it has been a long standing problem here.

Britain has encouraged private company milking of the public sector for the last 20 years. Private buses and trains need more public subsidies than the nationalised ones they replaced so what's wrong with other private companies getting in on the act?

OK, I know, the building companies are legally corrupt and dishonest but so are the bus and train companies, they pluck prices out of the air for subsidies they require for none profitable routes and government is happy to hand over the cash with barely a question asked.

The government has led by example on this one for the last 20 years.

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Post #: 25

RE: More UK Corruption. - 4/17/2008 6:35:25 AM

kittinSol

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One acronym: Quangos. They milked public money to operate government services at a hugely inflated price under the pretence that they were cheaper than public agencies.

I think that makes for a seriously fucked up and corrupt system.

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Post #: 26

RE: More UK Corruption. - 4/17/2008 6:37:12 AM

Aneirin

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I wonders, all these businesses that are engaged in dirty dealings, are they being quietly ignored by government for fear these companies will expose those in government who are also crooked. I mean, jail a CEO, I wonder how many civil servants will be in the firing line, not to mention MP's

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Post #: 27

RE: More UK Corruption. - 4/17/2008 6:45:14 AM

LadyEllen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

I wonders, all these businesses that are engaged in dirty dealings, are they being quietly ignored by government for fear these companies will expose those in government who are also crooked. I mean, jail a CEO, I wonder how many civil servants will be in the firing line, not to mention MP's

Well m'dear - just supposing I were able to, and I decided to fix the prices for European haulage in conference with the tens of thousands of other suppliers across Europe, such that I were able then to charge a lot more for the service, I might think it a worthwhile investment to make sure that anyone who might be able to expose the conference, derived benefit from it - to keep them quiet in the short run by the money, and in the long run by way of evidence of their complicity.

But in relation to my sector, I wouldnt mind having a guess that there may well be something similar going on in reverse, whereby exporters and importers confer to decide what they might be prepared to offer for our services. How else to explain the online tender sites to which we are invited, where one must enter one's price - but if one's price is not below a pre-fixed amount (a low amount) then it wont count. And there has I believe, been a similar conference amongst the supermarkets regarding price fixing in relation to their suppliers, so its not beyond the realm. That the OFT has watched this occurring for years and done nothing until recently - and even now is only making vague noises off, suggests what about who may be receiving backhanders I wonder to look the other way whilst supply prices are kept artificially low?

E

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Post #: 28

RE: More UK Corruption. - 4/17/2008 6:59:53 AM

seeksfemslave

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There is also no doubt whatsoever that these kind of investigations and application of pristine standards only seem to apply to those who do the real wealth creating work and take the real financial risks, in the UK anyway.

Not much seems to happen to pension fraudsters or spivs in the banking sector.

(in reply to LadyEllen)

Post #: 29

RE: More UK Corruption. - 4/17/2008 7:05:41 AM

LadyEllen

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quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Not much seems to happen to pension fraudsters or spivs in the banking sector.

Now that is simply untrue Seeks. The exchequer takes such very seriously and does all it can to ensure the guilty parties pay the price and that those who lost out are compensated from public funds.

The guilty parties being of course, the stupid proles and those compensated being the banks.

E

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Post #: 30

RE: More UK Corruption. - 4/17/2008 7:12:27 AM

seeksfemslave

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I had to think about that one LadyE. lol

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Post #: 31

RE: More UK Corruption. - 4/17/2008 7:14:47 AM

kittinSol

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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

The guilty parties being of course, the stupid proles and those compensated being the banks.

Funny... I just posted the lyrics about 'greedy grubby proles' on the 'sting of poverty' thread. Must be that great minds thinking alike thing...

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Post #: 32

RE: More UK Corruption. - 4/17/2008 7:16:07 AM

LadyEllen

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I suspect KS, that only one of us has a great mind.

And it aint me.

E

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Post #: 33

RE: More UK Corruption. - 4/17/2008 7:21:01 AM

RealityLicks

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LE, so the management of these companies are latter-day Robin Hoods, preserving the working conditions of their employees by any means necessary? These CEOs - whose salaries are tied to increases in revenue and whose earnings are many multiples those of the groundworkers who die with regularity on site - are secret philanthrocapitalists, spreading far and wide the beneficence of the public purse? That's a bit deluded for a Thursday afetrnoon but I appreciate the effort.

If you accept double standards, you don't have any. Deal with it.

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Post #: 34

RE: More UK Corruption. - 4/17/2008 7:29:20 AM

LadyEllen

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An olympian leap of reasoning RL. Perhaps you might be selected for Beijing, but you may have to slip an envelope or two to someone to be sure.

We all know they are doing what they do for their own interests and their companies' and shareholders' interests. I didnt suggest otherwise. What I did suggest was that the nett cost to the exchequer is likely negligible on the factors I cited, and that overall in markets driven solely by price competition, it likely produces a better outcome than the "lowest bid wins" approach since that approach will impact on how contracts are performed.

Double standards? Newsflash - we all have them, we're human. I cited the example of the dairy farmers from whose exploitation we all benefit via the supermarkets. Thats fixing the market just the same as with these construction firms, just in the other direction. It seems that we only have a problem when it might cost us something rather than save us?

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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Post #: 35

RE: More UK Corruption. - 4/17/2008 7:42:51 AM

RealityLicks

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Call that a newsflash?

By your flawed definition of cost and benefit, lower milk prices are actually causing us more harm than good, albeit the price at the till may be lower. Heard of subsidies? Interestingly, the OFT have consulted both on this and on banks' practices and I for one welcome their higher profile involvement.

Thanks for your assessment of my reasoning abilities, perhaps you'd like to rehearse your fresh and appealing rationale explaining just how the amount stolen by these companies returns to the exchequer in tax? These people are risking a fine equalling 10% of global turnover - not profit, ya hear? - for a round zero?

And if you could include a weathercast, that would be appreciated also.

< Message edited by RealityLicks -- 4/17/2008 7:43:40 AM >

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Post #: 36

RE: More UK Corruption. - 4/17/2008 8:02:42 AM

LadyEllen

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Yes, lower milk prices - prices resulting from fixing the market on the supply side - are harmful to all of us. Those manipulating the market are quite aware of the subsidies and will only pay a price which is below the cost of production with the subsidies included. The subsidies are a form of governmental market fixing of course, as is the whole CAP. But the harm from all this - dairy farms going out of business, is not immediate and the end consumer cares little for anything but how cheaply he can buy - the harm is (alike with my industry) we lose self sufficiency in producing milk (and providing transport in my case).

Then, when the vultures come home to roost as they are now as our currency spirals ever downwards - we end up paying over the top for what milk or what transport is available, that is, if we can afford it.

Personally, I hope the OFT throws the book equally hard at those who manipulate the supply side as those who manipulate the customer side.

The forecast incidentally, is for gloomy conditions for the next five years, with outbreaks of protest and accompanied by much hot air from the southeast.

E

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In a test against the leading brand, 9 out of 10 participants couldnt tell the difference. Dumbasses.

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Post #: 37

RE: More UK Corruption. - 4/17/2008 8:14:58 AM

subtee

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~FR

Your Prime Minister was interviewed on NPR this morning and I think he has a sexy voice...not like Blair who sounded kind of nasally/whiney. Major seemed to me a little bit swishy? Of course, Thatcher was pretty much the butch of the bunch...

This ends the hijack portion of this thread. Thank you and good day.

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Post #: 38

RE: More UK Corruption. - 4/17/2008 8:24:52 AM

Aneirin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee

~FR

Your Prime Minister was interviewed on NPR this morning and I think he has a sexy voice...not like Blair who sounded kind of nasally/whiney. Major seemed to me a little bit swishy? Of course, Thatcher was pretty much the butch of the bunch...

This ends the hijack portion of this thread. Thank you and good day.

Maybe he has a nice voice to you, but I for one do not trust him as far as I can spit him. Ivory towers spring to mind.

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Everything we are is the result of what we have thought, the mind is everything, what we think, we become - Guatama Buddha

Conservatism is distrust of people tempered by fear - William Gladstone

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Post #: 39

RE: More UK Corruption. - 4/17/2008 8:27:02 AM

kittinSol

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Gordon's a lot more sexually charged than wimpy Blur, for sure. As for Thatch... YIKES! The thought of her doing anything remotely sexual has me crawling up the walls! Major hid his stuff well: he had a four year affair with Edwina Currie. The dirty bastard.

Sorry for furthering your hijack, tee - it's one of these trivial subjects that I can't resist :-) .

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