RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs (Full Version)

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cjan -> RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs (4/19/2008 10:05:58 AM)

Perhaps the lady meant to say "twinked a widdle", dude.




Level -> RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs (4/19/2008 10:32:25 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: cjan

Perhaps the lady meant to say "twinked a widdle", dude.


Still sounds wrong.




MissMorrigan -> RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs (4/19/2008 10:59:36 AM)

Here you go:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiddlywinks

Take one sub, dilate the vagina or sphincter... Two dominants to compete against one another to tiddle the other's wink. A game of skill. The winner takes all. The loser milks Bardot's goats - all 2300 of them.




Lordandmaster -> RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs (4/19/2008 11:54:11 AM)

Being a stupid hateful old bitch isn't (or shouldn't be) a crime.

And what exactly is the relevant law?  "Muslim" isn't a race.  She's insulting a religion, not a race.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Bardot is a stupid, hateful old bitch; it's like the sixth time she's broken the law that protects people from racial hatred. It's a fucking law, get over it. She's got it coming, and she deserves it.




Level -> RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs (4/19/2008 11:57:11 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan

Here you go:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiddlywinks

Take one sub, dilate the vagina or sphincter... Two dominants to compete against one another to tiddle the other's wink. A game of skill. The winner takes all. The loser milks Bardot's goats - all 2300 of them.


But what would Wink say?
 
Hmm. What would be worse, milking Bardot's goats, or Bardot?




hisannabelle -> RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs (4/19/2008 12:09:46 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

Being a stupid hateful old bitch isn't (or shouldn't be) a crime.

And what exactly is the relevant law?  "Muslim" isn't a race.  She's insulting a religion, not a race.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Bardot is a stupid, hateful old bitch; it's like the sixth time she's broken the law that protects people from racial hatred. It's a fucking law, get over it. She's got it coming, and she deserves it.



this is just a random thought, but perhaps they prosecuted her on the basis of her comments about immigrants, who are mostly amazigh (berber) and arab? although those aren't considered separate races by the united states, they're considered white; so it depends on how the french define race, i suppose.

i just don't see her liking non-immigrant muslims any better, though, but i've become used to being treated like i just immigrated ever since i reverted (forget the fact that my - irish - family's been here for a few centuries). but i agree that it would be nice if people would kindly remember that islam is not a race (and muslims are made up of many different races, depending on whose definition of race we are using).




kittinSol -> RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs (4/19/2008 1:56:28 PM)

Lam, thank you for keeping a watchful eye. The relevant legislation addresses the issue as below:

quote:



A)_ La définition de la diffamation raciale et la provocation à la haine raciale
 
La définition de la lutte contre la diffamation raciale et la provocation à la haine raciale figure dans la loi (1), mais le juge apporte des précisions supplémentaires statuant au cas par cas, tout en retenant des critères déterminés (2)

1)_La définition légale

La loi du 29 juillet 1881 sur la liberté de presse est applicable également à internet, car elle constitue le régime de droit commun. La LCEN est une loi spéciale qui concerne uniquement internet, tout en laissant les dispositions de la loi de 1881 régir la définition de la diffamation et incitation à la haine raciale. La diffamation raciale et la provocation à la haine raciale font partie des infractions qui, par leur extrême gravité, font l’objet d’un régime spécial, limitant la liberté d’expression. La justification réside dans l’intérêt général et le respect de la dignité de la personne humaine.
La diffamation est définie par l’article 29 de la loi sur la liberté de la presse de 1881 comme « toute allégation ou imputation d’un fait qui porte atteinte à l’honneur ou à la considération de la personne ou du corps auquel le fait est imputé ». La loi de 1881 est applicable à internet lorsqu’il s’agit d’une mise à disposition du public. Les internautes seront pénalement et civilement responsables, sous réserve qu’ils soient identifiés, ce qui n’est pas aisé à établir. La diffamation et la provocation à la haine raciale sont régies par l’article 24 al. 8 L. 29 juillet 1881 auquel se réfère le juge. Elles se distinguent également de l’injure qui est définie comme « Toute expression outrageante, termes de mépris ou invective qui ne renferme l’imputation d’aucun fait » (art. 29 al 2, L. 1881). La diffamation et la provocation à la haine raciale vise un groupe de personnes défini et porte atteinte à leur honneur ou à la considération de ce groupe.
C’est par la jurisprudence qu’il est plus aisé de comprendre les différences entre ces infractions.

En raison de la nécessaire appréciation faite au cas par cas, le juge est amené à stigmatiser les propos incitant à la haine raciale tout en apportant une appréciation restrictive, le cas échéant cela aboutirait à une violation de l’article 10 de la Convention européenne des Droits de l’Homme et du citoyen. Selon Mme Menotti (chronique de la Cour de cassation, chambre criminelle, p. 1819), les propos ne doivent être stigmatisés que « lorsque ceux-ci sont tenus en considération des origines et des croyances ». La liberté d’expression implique l’expression d’opinions sur les dogmes, sur la politique de certains Etats. C’est ainsi que dans l’arrêt de la chambre criminelle de la Cour de cassation, rendu le 30 mai 2007, deux personnes, qui avaient été condamnées par les premiers juges à réparer le préjudice subi par la ligue contre le racisme et l’antisémitisme (LICRA), ont été relaxées.



Translation: to hold a diffamatory discourse about a group of people because of their origin or religious belief is held as encouraging racial hatred.

I don't particularly like the term either: but if you have an issue with it... you'll have to address the French legislator.

you will find an article here




Monkeyontuesday -> RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs (4/19/2008 2:14:35 PM)

I just finished reading an ethnography about Berbers/ Algerians/ Muslims in France, particularly Paris... And with all of the racially-fueld violence going on, I'm surprised anything happened to her.

not to say I agree with it.. I think it's terrible, to be sure. Can't we all just get along?




kittinSol -> RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs (4/19/2008 2:20:33 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Monkeyontuesday

I think it's terrible, to be sure. Can't we all just get along?



I wish we could - but first, we have to question whether we can tolerate intolerance if the intolerance in question will infringe on our liberties. That's the problem with hateful speech: it uses the fora of freedom of speech in order to restrict the liberty of those it doesn't deem worthy of so much liberty. It's difficult for Americans to understand this concept of hateful speech, because of the first amendment - but what can you do? It's a different continent after all.




Level -> RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs (4/19/2008 2:27:48 PM)

I don't think it's a matter of us not being able to "understand" it, kittin, but perhaps we place a higher value on freedom of speech.




MissMorrigan -> RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs (4/19/2008 2:34:42 PM)

Forget the focus on militant muslims, it's a common excuse for people to use to further their own agendas, Seeks, as you well know, and amounts to the same tactics Bardot and many others of her ilk use as a means to remove the civil liberties of their targets. Freedom of speech is one thing, until you are on the wrong side of it and having it used against you by those inciting hatred - there's nothing free in that - none of which can be compared to expressing an opinion, especially when a particular platform is used, in this instance, she uses her former libertine reputation and present day notoriety to further her political agenda.
quote:

ORIGINAL: seeksfemslave
Now the PC brigade are waking up to the mess they have made they belatedly have sanctioned prosecutions against the worst and most persistant offenders , militant Muslims.

If BB wants to criticise homosexuals, Muslims or the way animals are treated she should have that right.
Am I wrong ?




MissMorrigan -> RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs (4/19/2008 2:38:18 PM)

At any cost? Certainly at the misery of many who have to suffer the insane rants of people such as the westboro church who deliberately seek out the families of homosexuals at a time when they should be especially respected - when they are grieving, but instead, have to suffer the viperous barbs designed to inflict yet more damage... all at the cost of freedom of speech.

edited to add: It seems we all uphold an individual's freedom of speech - until we become victims of it.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
I don't think it's a matter of us not being able to "understand" it, kittin, but perhaps we place a higher value on freedom of speech.




popeye1250 -> RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs (4/19/2008 2:38:51 PM)

"I am not now nor have I ever been a member of the Communist Party."




kittinSol -> RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs (4/19/2008 2:56:29 PM)

Freedom of speech over freedom of being? How am I free if I am able to spur hate that will encourage a group of people to demonise and demolish another?

It's not that Europe respects freedom of speech less, Level. It's that Europe has a very different history from America. Freedom of speech can be abused: what European countries are trying to do is protect the liberty of its people with laws that provide the judiciary with a means to stop incitation to hatred and violence.

It's a different philosophy. The American model is not the be all and end all of a perfect society.




FullCircle -> RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs (4/19/2008 3:09:35 PM)

Once upon a time governments trusted people to realise who the idiots were themselves.




Level -> RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs (4/19/2008 3:12:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MissMorrigan

At any cost? Certainly at the misery of many who have to suffer the insane rants of people such as the westboro church who deliberately seek out the families of homosexuals at a time when they should be especially respected - when they are grieving, but instead, have to suffer the viperous barbs designed to inflict yet more damage... all at the cost of freedom of speech.

edited to add: It seems we all uphold an individual's freedom of speech - until we become victims of it.
quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
I don't think it's a matter of us not being able to "understand" it, kittin, but perhaps we place a higher value on freedom of speech.



No, some of us uphold it even when we're the target of it.
 
Besides, we don't have freedom of speech at any cost here. There are limits, and usually reasonable ones. Offending someone isn't one of them.




Lordandmaster -> RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs (4/19/2008 3:17:01 PM)

If that is indeed the law, I'm glad I'm not a citizen of France.  First, the specter of selective prosecution of that law is absolutely outrageous.  Who on earth has never said anything that could be construed as "diffamation" (we say "defamation" in English) or "provocation" by those definitions?  This isn't just a law that lends itself to selective prosecution; it's a law that can hardly be prosecuted EXCEPT selectively.

Second, it's obviously a lot more than RACIAL "diffamation" that they're prosecuting if Mme Menotti's interpretation is correct that statements about people's beliefs are fair game.  Suppose I say that, hmmm, let's use good old Level as an example...suppose I say that Level is a freaking moron because he believes low-carb diets have a rigorous scientific basis, and lo and behold I'm liable to be prosecuted under a law designed to stamp out racial hatred?  Isn't that insane?

Third, I'm as sensitive to hatred and racism as anyone, but I believe curtailing speech is a misguided way to try to combat it.  Would you agree, for example, that those Danish cartoonists should have been brought up on charges for defaming Islam?  That has to be your litmus test for the justice of this law.  What we need for peace is MORE speech, not less.  Basically, I think we in the U.S. have gotten free-speech issues more or less right, and in post-war Europe governments now err too far on the side of abridgment.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Lam, thank you for keeping a watchful eye. The relevant legislation addresses the issue as below:

quote:



A)_ La définition de la diffamation raciale et la provocation à la haine raciale
 
La définition de la lutte contre la diffamation raciale et la provocation à la haine raciale figure dans la loi (1), mais le juge apporte des précisions supplémentaires statuant au cas par cas, tout en retenant des critères déterminés (2)

1)_La définition légale

La loi du 29 juillet 1881 sur la liberté de presse est applicable également à internet, car elle constitue le régime de droit commun. La LCEN est une loi spéciale qui concerne uniquement internet, tout en laissant les dispositions de la loi de 1881 régir la définition de la diffamation et incitation à la haine raciale. La diffamation raciale et la provocation à la haine raciale font partie des infractions qui, par leur extrême gravité, font l’objet d’un régime spécial, limitant la liberté d’expression. La justification réside dans l’intérêt général et le respect de la dignité de la personne humaine.
La diffamation est définie par l’article 29 de la loi sur la liberté de la presse de 1881 comme « toute allégation ou imputation d’un fait qui porte atteinte à l’honneur ou à la considération de la personne ou du corps auquel le fait est imputé ». La loi de 1881 est applicable à internet lorsqu’il s’agit d’une mise à disposition du public. Les internautes seront pénalement et civilement responsables, sous réserve qu’ils soient identifiés, ce qui n’est pas aisé à établir. La diffamation et la provocation à la haine raciale sont régies par l’article 24 al. 8 L. 29 juillet 1881 auquel se réfère le juge. Elles se distinguent également de l’injure qui est définie comme « Toute expression outrageante, termes de mépris ou invective qui ne renferme l’imputation d’aucun fait » (art. 29 al 2, L. 1881). La diffamation et la provocation à la haine raciale vise un groupe de personnes défini et porte atteinte à leur honneur ou à la considération de ce groupe.
C’est par la jurisprudence qu’il est plus aisé de comprendre les différences entre ces infractions.

En raison de la nécessaire appréciation faite au cas par cas, le juge est amené à stigmatiser les propos incitant à la haine raciale tout en apportant une appréciation restrictive, le cas échéant cela aboutirait à une violation de l’article 10 de la Convention européenne des Droits de l’Homme et du citoyen. Selon Mme Menotti (chronique de la Cour de cassation, chambre criminelle, p. 1819), les propos ne doivent être stigmatisés que « lorsque ceux-ci sont tenus en considération des origines et des croyances ». La liberté d’expression implique l’expression d’opinions sur les dogmes, sur la politique de certains Etats. C’est ainsi que dans l’arrêt de la chambre criminelle de la Cour de cassation, rendu le 30 mai 2007, deux personnes, qui avaient été condamnées par les premiers juges à réparer le préjudice subi par la ligue contre le racisme et l’antisémitisme (LICRA), ont été relaxées.





Level -> RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs (4/19/2008 3:17:40 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Freedom of speech over freedom of being? How am I free if I am able to spur hate that will encourage a group of people to demonise and demolish another?

It's not that Europe respects freedom of speech less, Level. It's that Europe has a very different history from America. Freedom of speech can be abused: what European countries are trying to do is protect the liberty of its people with laws that provide the judiciary with a means to stop incitation to hatred and violence.

It's a different philosophy. The American model is not the be all and end all of a perfect society.


No, and frankly, it seems America is the be all end all of what's wrong, at least to some.
 
I am far from well versed in what Bardot has said in the past, but from the article I linked to in the OP, I see nothing she should have been brought to court for. Do I agree with all she said? No. Is some of it stupid? Yes.
 
Harsh words and criticism are not necessarily "hate", and even if one does hate another, it does not mean they are inciting violence against them.




Level -> RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs (4/19/2008 3:21:22 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster

If that is indeed the law, I'm glad I'm not a citizen of France.  First, the specter of selective prosecution of that law is absolutely outrageous.  Who on earth has never said anything that could be construed as "diffamation" (we say "defamation" in English) or "provocation" by those definitions?  This isn't just a law that lends itself to selective prosecution; it's a law that can hardly be prosecuted EXCEPT selectively.

Second, it's obviously a lot more than RACIAL "diffamation" that they're prosecuting if Mme Menotti's interpretation is correct that statements about people's beliefs are fair game.  Suppose I say that, hmmm, let's use good old Level as an example...suppose I say that Level is a freaking moron because he believes low-carb diets have a rigorous scientific basis, and lo and behold I'm liable to be prosecuted under a law designed to stamp out racial hatred?  Isn't that insane?

Third, I'm as sensitive to hatred and racism as anyone, but I believe curtailing speech is a misguided way to try to combat it.  Would you agree, for example, that those Danish cartoonists should have been brought up on charges for defaming Islam?  That has to be your litmus test for the justice of this law.  What we need for peace is MORE speech, not less.  Basically, I think we in the U.S. have gotten free-speech issues more or less right, and in post-war Europe governments now err too far on the side of abridgment.



Excellent post.
 
"freaking moron"........[8D]




FullCircle -> RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs (4/19/2008 3:32:04 PM)

We have the similar law in the UK and it is the only way the UK Government can prosecute those that glorify terrorism on websites. It was the main reason it was brought about in the first place; i.e. because people demanded to know why such websites could exist.

As for the application of the law, well prosecutor’s only ever aim to make examples of people so it doesn’t really matter if it is indiscriminate it just depends if you share the same politics as the current government or not.




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