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RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs - 4/19/2008 8:23:47 PM   
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Which means?
 
I'm assuming your saying it to show that America doesn't have unfettered free speech? If so, that's already been pointed out.
 
Otherwise, I'm not sure what it means regarding Bardot being brought to court, but the idea that someone lambasting Christians in France couldn't be.
 
Or am I not seeing something?

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RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs - 4/19/2008 8:32:34 PM   
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quote:

God is dead.


quote:

Translation: to hold a diffamatory discourse about a group of people because of their origin or religious belief is held as encouraging racial hatred.



Even if the first quote does not mention Christians (or Muslims, or Jews, for that matter) specifically, it's a very, very small leap of faith (no pun intended) to see someone taking offense, and using the French law to cause a great deal of needless shit for anyone making such a statement.

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RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs - 4/19/2008 8:49:18 PM   
kittinSol


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I'm merely pointing out that you are Eurobashing without full knowledge of the laws. You feel directly affected as a Christian over something that has absolutely no direct consequence over your beliefs.

Above, I have quoted three texts of law that show you how your right to religious thought and worship is protected in France. And there are more out there. I am not a lawyer, though in circumstances such as these, I wish I were.

It gets complex when you consider that French law is dependent upon European law. Freedom of expression is restricted by the law that protects the rights of individuals to not be beaten, killed, and generally discriminated against because of their origin, or ethnic origin, or colour, or religion. It doesn't mean you can't say what you like, but it does mean that if someone utters antisemitic insults in the middle of a university lecture, they will be probably be arrested. It does mean that the fuckers who desecrated a war cemetary a couple of weeks ago will go down for a bit (you remember the incident in question, I'm sure).

Don't you understand that the legislation which worries you so much is actually in place to protect your rights as a human being to worship as you see fit? If somebody published an article that said "All Christians stink and they murder their babies to make soup they feed to their pigs and they should be put to death", they would get asked to stop.

The text below is of primary importance in this debate:

quote:



Article R625-7 du code pénal (partie réglementaire)
La provocation non publique à la discrimination, à la haine ou à la violence à l'égard d'une personne ou d'un groupe de personnes à raison de leur origine ou de leur appartenance ou de leur non-appartenance, vraie ou supposée, à une ethnie, une nation, une race ou une religion déterminée est punie de l'amende prévue pour les contraventions de la 5e classe.
Les personnes coupables de la contravention prévue au présent article encourent également les peines complémentaires suivantes :
1. L'interdiction de détenir ou de porter, pour une durée de trois ans au plus, une arme soumise à autorisation ;
2. La confiscation d'une ou de plusieurs armes dont le condamné est propriétaire ou dont il a la libre disposition;
3. La confiscation de la chose qui a servi ou était destinée à commettre l'infraction ou de la chose qui en est le produit ;
4. Le travail d'intérêt général pour une durée de vingt à cent vingt heures.
Les personnes morales peuvent être déclarées responsables pénalement, dans les conditions prévues par l'article 121-2, de l'infraction définie au présent article.
Les peines encourues par les personnes morales sont :
1. L'amende, suivant les modalités prévues par l'article 131-41 ;
2. La confiscation de la chose qui a servi ou était destinée à commettre l'infraction ou de la chose qui en est le produit.
La récidive de la contravention prévue au présent article est réprimée conformément aux articles 132-11 et 132-15.



If you need clarification... feel free to ring my bell.

[link=http://www.pointdecontact.net/autressujets.html#provoc] reference [/link]


< Message edited by kittinSol -- 4/19/2008 8:53:59 PM >


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RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs - 4/19/2008 9:01:39 PM   
Lordandmaster


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That's not a very good example, kittin, because "All Christians murder their babies" is a demonstrably false statement of fact, whereas "Muslims are undermining our communities" is an opinion.  Making demonstrably false statements about people can and should be prosecuted as slander/defamation/libel (whatever you want to call it).  Expressing unpopular opinions is a completely different kettle of fish.

quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

If somebody published an article that said "All Christians stink and they murder their babies to make soup they feed to their pigs and they should be put to death", they would get asked to stop.

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RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs - 4/19/2008 9:02:03 PM   
popeye1250


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Gee, I didn't know the left could be so anal-retentive.


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RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs - 4/19/2008 9:03:00 PM   
kittinSol


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Rattle someone else's cage, popeye. I have something serious to talk about :-) .

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RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs - 4/19/2008 9:05:08 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

I'm merely pointing out that you are Eurobashing without full knowledge of the laws.


I would disagree that I'm bashing Europe; I have a deep respect for that continent, and have said so, many times.
 
(A quick aside: I once started a thread about what was good about America, and was stunned at the number of folks that could not, or would not, list a single thing.)

quote:

You feel directly affected as a Christian over something that has absolutely no direct consequence over your beliefs.


I feel there is a double standard.

quote:

Above, I have quoted three texts of law that show you how your right to religious thought and worship is protected in France. And there are more out there. I am not a lawyer, though in circumstances such as these, I wish I were.

It gets complex when you consider that French law is dependent upon European law. Freedom of expression is restricted by the law that protects the rights of individuals to not be beaten, killed, and generally discriminated against because of their origin, or ethnic origin, or colour, or religion. It doesn't mean you can't say what you like, but it does mean that if someone utters antisemitic insults in the middle of a university lecture, they will be probably be arrested. It does mean that the fuckers who desecrated a war cemetary a couple of weeks ago will go down for a bit (you remember the incident in question, I'm sure).


I do, and am hopeful they get their asses tossed in a jail cell.

quote:

Don't you understand that the legislation which worries you so much is actually in place to protect your rights as a human being to worship as you see fit? If somebody published an article that said "All Christians stink and they murder their babies to make soup they feed to their pigs", they would get asked to stop.


I do understand, and believe the intent is well-meant. But words won't stop me, or a Muslim, from worshipping, nor will insults.
 
Call me a stupid, backwards, superstitious nut, and it won't keep me from practicing my faith. Threaten me, or lay hands on me, and that......... that crosses the line.
 
Living in a free society means we're going to be uncomfortable sometimes.


quote:

The text below is of primary importance in this debate:

quote:



Article R625-7 du code pénal (partie réglementaire)
La provocation non publique à la discrimination, à la haine ou à la violence à l'égard d'une personne ou d'un groupe de personnes à raison de leur origine ou de leur appartenance ou de leur non-appartenance, vraie ou supposée, à une ethnie, une nation, une race ou une religion déterminée est punie de l'amende prévue pour les contraventions de la 5e classe.
Les personnes coupables de la contravention prévue au présent article encourent également les peines complémentaires suivantes :
1. L'interdiction de détenir ou de porter, pour une durée de trois ans au plus, une arme soumise à autorisation ;
2. La confiscation d'une ou de plusieurs armes dont le condamné est propriétaire ou dont il a la libre disposition;
3. La confiscation de la chose qui a servi ou était destinée à commettre l'infraction ou de la chose qui en est le produit ;
4. Le travail d'intérêt général pour une durée de vingt à cent vingt heures.
Les personnes morales peuvent être déclarées responsables pénalement, dans les conditions prévues par l'article 121-2, de l'infraction définie au présent article.
Les peines encourues par les personnes morales sont :
1. L'amende, suivant les modalités prévues par l'article 131-41 ;
2. La confiscation de la chose qui a servi ou était destinée à commettre l'infraction ou de la chose qui en est le produit.
La récidive de la contravention prévue au présent article est réprimée conformément aux articles 132-11 et 132-15.




Translated:

The non-public incitement to discrimination, hatred or violence against a person or group of persons because of their origin or their membership or non-membership, real or supposed, an ethnic group, nation, race or religion is punishable by a fine as provided for contraventions of the 5th grade.
Persons found guilty of the offence under this article also incur the following penalties:
1. The ban on possessing or carrying, for a period of three years, subject to a weapon authorization;
2. The confiscation of one or more weapons with the convicted owns or in which he freely available;
3. The confiscation of the thing which was used or intended to commit the offence or thing which is the product;
4. The work of general interest for a period of twenty to one hundred and twenty hours.
The corporate entities can be held criminally responsible, under the conditions provided for in Article 121-2 of the offence defined in this article.
The penalties incurred by legal persons are:
1. The fine, according to the rules laid down in Article 131-41;
2. The confiscation of the thing which was used or intended to commit the offence or thing which is the product.
The recurrence of the violation with this Article shall be punished in accordance with Articles 132-11 and 132-15.

Why does it state "non-public"?
 
If it were worded to only include "incitement to violence", I could support it, kittin.
 
quote:

If you need clarification... feel free to ring my bell.


The offer is appreciated.


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RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs - 4/19/2008 9:51:06 PM   
OrionTheWolf


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See what you get when you restrict speech because it is "hate" speech. Can the woman not voice her opinion, whether it meets the political correct rightness or not?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

French former film star Brigitte Bardot went on trial on Tuesday for insulting Muslims, the fifth time she has faced the charge of "inciting racial hatred" over her controversial remarks about Islam and its followers.

Prosecutors asked that the Paris court hand the 73-year-old former sex symbol a two-month suspended prison sentence and fine her 15,000 euros ($23,760) for saying the Muslim community was "destroying our country and imposing its acts."

Since retiring from the film industry in the 1970s, Bardot has become a prominent animal rights activist but she has also courted controversy by denouncing Muslim traditions and immigration from predominantly Muslim countries.


http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3532323,00.html


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RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs - 4/19/2008 11:28:30 PM   
popeye1250


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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Rattle someone else's cage, popeye. I have something serious to talk about :-) .


I looked up "race" in the dictionary then I looked up "religion."
They're two different things.
If you have a PhD. they're still two different things.

Can we all say ...Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeach?
Boy this is odd.
The left defends muslims but they won't defend christians.
They said this would happen shortly after 9/11.
Christians are the "smokers" of all the religions, you can discriminate against them with impunity it seems.
If liberalism  is a "disease" what does that make leftism?
Leftists are so far out there they're abstract.
Does anyone know if they even cast shadows when they walk outside?
It reminds me of that song some years ago; "Living in your own private Idaho."

< Message edited by popeye1250 -- 4/19/2008 11:47:06 PM >


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RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs - 4/20/2008 12:04:25 AM   
MissMorrigan


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We aren't talking about a quiet chat wherein she's voicing her opinions on her subject of choice, OTW. She is using the media as a political platform to incite racial hatred towards a group that have a legal entitlement to reside in France. While popeye can continue to bandy back and forth that religion isn't a race, and he's right about that, he's also missing a point in this, the point being that this isn't really about religion at all - it's about cleansing France of its 'foreigners', in this instance, muslims which she considers to be a 'foreign influence' and a destructive one. Just about any group that isn't fundamentally french or in keeping with her own religious beliefs is a target for this lady and she uses her husband's standing to drive her malevolence home.

The laws are distinct. We DO uphold freedom of speech - just not at any cost. The cost in this instance is incitement to racial hatred.

This time, I'm going to quote you, OTW: "As long as it does not cause direct harm to the community (fire in a crowded theater) or incite to commit a criminal act (You should all kill whitie, and hang them from a bridge)." And therein is the answer to your own question. It's about intent. One can voice one's opinions. One cannot use them to commit intentional harm - the intent in this case is to remove a group's fundamental rights to reside without prejudice and restriction to their civil liberties in France, which is something Bardot is attempting to prevent. Change 'whitie' to 'foreigner'.
quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf
See what you get when you restrict speech because it is "hate" speech. Can the woman not voice her opinion, whether it meets the political correct rightness or not?


< Message edited by MissMorrigan -- 4/20/2008 12:24:00 AM >


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RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs - 4/20/2008 12:10:06 AM   
MissMorrigan


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You keep throwing this old chestnut on the fire, Popeye. Given a person's comments you can see their intent, I'm sure, perhaps this will help you a little - it's a direct quote from the lady herself as to whether she considers Muslims to be practitioners of a specific religion or a race:

"...my country, France, my homeland, my land is again invaded by an overpopulation of foreigners, especially Muslims."

quote:

ORIGINAL: popeye1250
Can we all say ...Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeach?
Boy this is odd.
The left defends muslims but they won't defend christians.
They said this would happen shortly after 9/11.
Christians are the "smokers" of all the religions, you can discriminate against them with impunity it seems.
If liberalism  is a "disease" what does that make leftism?
Leftists are so far out there they're abstract.
Does anyone know if they even cast shadows when they walk outside?
It reminds me of that song some years ago; "Living in your own private Idaho."


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RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs - 4/20/2008 2:52:44 AM   
slaveboyforyou


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quote:

You keep throwing this old chestnut on the fire, Popeye. Given a person's comments you can see their intent, I'm sure, perhaps this will help you a little - it's a direct quote from the lady herself as to whether she considers Muslims to be practitioners of a specific religion or a race:

"...my country, France, my homeland, my land is again invaded by an overpopulation of foreigners, especially Muslims."


Why is that incitement towards racial hatred?  I can understand where she is coming from.  We used to assimilate immigrants in this country.  Now our government has opened the floodgates and allowed the entirety of the third world to come here.  The Left likes to preach about tolerance from their gated communities, and talk about how charming and quaint their maid Consuela and their gardener Hector is.  But because of their total disconnect with what is going on in this country, they fail to recognize that Hector and Consuela HATE THEIR FUCKING GUTS. 

My little town that I grew up in had a few hispanic immigrants, a few Asian immigrants, a few Muslim immigrants, etc when I was growing up.  They came here to be Americans.  Now the streets are lined with Mexican grocers.  Hardly any of them speak English, and they HATE OUR FUCKING GUTS.  They use stolen identities to get jobs that once paid well, but now pay a pittance because they have driven the wages down.  Not a week goes by that I don't hear about one of them gunning down another in a tiff over drugs.  They don't want to assimilate, and they want to force the dominant culture to step out of the way while they systematically destroy it. 

The entire western world has allowed Muslims to come into our countries in droves.  What do they do when they get here?  They crash airplanes into buildings, blow up subways, and open up places of worship as fronts for indoctrination facilities.  When some of us raise hell about it, we are branded as racists and bigots.  The Left in usual fashion thinks they have to educate us poor, bitter, working, saps into being tolerant.   So they try to pass laws making our speech criminal.  Well FUCK THEM. 

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RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs - 4/20/2008 3:13:54 AM   
hisannabelle


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slaveboyforyou,

ISLAM IS NOT A RACE, ETHNICITY, OR NATIONALITY.


< Message edited by hisannabelle -- 4/20/2008 3:14:08 AM >


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RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs - 4/20/2008 3:35:38 AM   
slaveboyforyou


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quote:

ISLAM IS NOT A RACE, ETHNICITY, OR NATIONALITY.


Um, yeah I knew that.  What's your point? 

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RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs - 4/20/2008 3:43:44 AM   
MissMorrigan


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Because in her own words she has stated that she is anti-foreigners, so the muslims are just a focus for that xenophobic intolerance. 
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
Why is that incitement towards racial hatred?  I can understand where she is coming from.
 

The problem isn't the immigrants, it's the government that mismanaged immigration that's at fault.It's misplaced anger.
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
We used to assimilate immigrants in this country.  Now our government has opened the floodgates and allowed the entirety of the third world to come here.
 

I would too if I were continually told that I did not 'belong' there. America is a melting pot and any minority group is going to continue living in exclusive groups all the while the majority ostracise them. It was easy with the blacks, they could effectively be contained in their ghettos, had little to no money so rarely aspired above their station and the same can be said of the hispanics, along came the asians... with money to not only buy properties but also businesses - gasp!

Ya know, Slaveboy, I was raised in London where it's also a melting pot and with the same issues as any other country. I now live in Brighton on the south coast of England, my street is predominantly caucasian, but have a few families of differing ethnicities and that is GREAT. I grew up with a multicultural background and I don't live a sheltered life, I work in the community and do not see this invasion of which you speak. It's not a war. No one is invading 'us'... immigrants are taking advantage of the opportunities available to them as offered by our respective governments.
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
My little town that I grew up in had a few hispanic immigrants, a few Asian immigrants, a few Muslim immigrants, etc when I was growing up.  They came here to be Americans.  Now the streets are lined with Mexican grocers.  Hardly any of them speak English, and they HATE OUR FUCKING GUTS. 


And that is why you perceive them to hate your guts. You give them a reason to.
quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou
Well FUCK THEM. 


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RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs - 4/20/2008 4:05:37 AM   
hisannabelle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

quote:

ISLAM IS NOT A RACE, ETHNICITY, OR NATIONALITY.


Um, yeah I knew that.  What's your point? 


you list "muslim" alongside race/ethnic categories, as though it's similar to "hispanic," "asian," etc. when in fact muslims are hispanic, asian, white, black, and every other race/ethnic group. you claim the entire western world has allowed (those) "muslims to come into OUR countries," when in fact, many of the residents of "our countries" are muslim themselves; there are plenty of western muslims who are not immigrants.

< Message edited by hisannabelle -- 4/20/2008 4:20:06 AM >


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RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs - 4/20/2008 4:34:17 AM   
MissMorrigan


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And I think that's where people feel threatened, Annabelle. People still have this imperalistic view that the US and UK are theirs by right - that right of way being the white pathway of Christian intolerance. We see people who feel a genuine threat to their communities b/c they view such cultural influences as being too different from their own values.

What do we class as indigenous, especially when the very foundations of such countries as the UK and US were provided by different ethnicities - the very ethnicities many are complainant of in today's societies.

Anyone that is visually 'different' becomes a target for discrimination. People still haven't reconciled with the events of 9/11, the resultant propaganda and backlash, and people are still fearful of another attack... While they cannot take to task the originators of such attacks, attacks committed by extremists, mainstream muslims, or anyone of colour and associated religions, becomes a convenient focus.

We often hear of ethnic minorities failing to integrate in mainstream socieites, yet where is the incentive when there is so much biased faced on a daily basis and ANY prejudice can and does only serve to dilute the quality of our society.

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RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs - 4/20/2008 4:46:22 AM   
FullCircle


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Lordandmaster
Well, the law that Kittin quoted doesn't quite distinguish between those two statements.

I'm not an expert on French law although European laws generally try follow the same framework of ideas.
quote:


"I am fed up with being under the thumb of this population which is destroying us, destroying our country and imposing its acts.

 
She isn't calling for debate on immigration; she is spreading her malicious unproven opinion that others will have to suffer under because of.

If she had been less dramatic and said "I really think we should consider and study the effect the immigration of ethnic/other minorities is having on our society." No one would have had an issue with that I doubt. The problem is she stated her unproven opinion as fact, giving no real examples other than the fact killing sheep and then maybe not eating them is alien to her culture. To use the word 'imposing' also suggest the people of France are at war against Muslims, you can see how the government of France would like to clarify this isn't the case by going for a prosecution of her.

It is about time people considered the consequences their speeches have. Using emotive language which is something anyone can do to make headlines in these delicate areas is not on.

 
 

< Message edited by FullCircle -- 4/20/2008 4:53:56 AM >


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RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs - 4/20/2008 4:50:29 AM   
Level


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She's adding to the debate, just not in a way that suits some people.

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RE: Brigitte Bardot on trial for Muslim slurs - 4/20/2008 4:51:28 AM   
FullCircle


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Her debating style is dangerous for some.

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