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RE: SIGNIFICANT progress ... - 4/22/2008 1:32:33 AM

meatcleaver

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TreasureKY

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

You cannot win a discussion with self-superior people. You continue to start real and reasoned posts that are worth intelligent discussion (not that I agree with any of your post, mind you), but then get dragged into this babble by those that are just too smart for the rest of us ... just ask them.

Are you saying the war in Iraq is reasoned?

lol... Caitlyn said that Firm's posts were reasoned. She said nothing about the war in Iraq.

LOL Reasonable posts from an unreasonable position?

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Post #: 101

RE: SIGNIFICANT progress ... - 4/22/2008 2:48:39 AM

SugarMyChurro

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FirmhandKY
If you want to make a logical, non-insulting argument about how this somehow affects the current situation in Iraq ... feel free.

Let's face it, you won't answer because it proves my point entirely. I could search your screen name and come up with the necessary results but I won't bother. I am pretty sure of what your answers have been over time.

This thread is a toilet. The idea that significant progress has occurred depends on many things not in evidence in any way. What is the goal in Iraq?

I mean the *REAL* goal.

You're not going to discuss that issue with intellectual honesty because I have already shown that what you support is invasion first, and then justifying it afterward.

You have yet to answer how respecting a sovereign nation's self-determinism is somehow enhanced by being invaded and oppressed by a foreign power.

You claim the moral high ground, but the idea that you actually have the moral high ground is absurd on its face even by your own claimed standards.

The people are no freer today than under Saddam. In fact, as far as daily life goes it appears that many municipal services have been radically reduced in quality by the advent of war. And sure they don't have to be worried about being murdered by Saddam because they can look forward to being murdered by Americans instead.

Progress!

What a grotesque sham.

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RE: SIGNIFICANT progress ... - 4/22/2008 2:58:30 AM

DMFParadox

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Moo. Baaa.

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Post #: 103

RE: SIGNIFICANT progress ... - 4/22/2008 2:59:11 AM

UtopianRanger

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quote:

You're not going to discuss that issue with intellectual honesty because I have already shown that what you support is invasion first, and then justifying it afterward.

Where is our boy Firm tonight - Is he out lollygagging? I've read most of this thread tonight laughing my ass off.

- R

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RE: SIGNIFICANT progress ... - 4/22/2008 3:25:49 AM

SugarMyChurro

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quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf has variously said:
What I do feel we need to do is address the Iranian issue, and make sure they stay out of it, and stop assisting fighters crossing the border. Not to mention the possibility of nuclear threat from Iran. the strategic positions of those area can be covered via air, unmanned craft and very few troops...at this time in some areas we are progressing but losing ground in others. The problems between the religious factions have been going on for a very long time, and as we are liked more by one we are disliked more by another. As we help one, the other uses it as a way to show we are the enemy. It is a quagmire that cannot be won by the measures that we would normally apply...The cost is going to bankrupt us. I am all for doing what needs to be done, but we must be fiscally responsible about it...I see many people like to use excuses, rather than accept responsibility for their own actions.

If you supported this misadventure then it's on you, pal.

You talk like a war-hawk, but have ultimately resigned yourself to a position of withdrawal from Iraq. So in other words, your foreign policy aspirations in Iraq resulted in utter failures. Gee, what other astonishingly myopic and repulsive advice can we look forward to from your corner? Oh yeah, Iran - another fight we can't win so we had best leave off.

Brilliant!

Neither fish nor fowl, tail tucked well between legs. Why not just admit failure right now, OrionTheWolf? Or is the point to spend lots of money on private contractors and drive up the price of oil?

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RE: SIGNIFICANT progress ... - 4/22/2008 10:18:15 AM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: UtopianRanger

quote:

You're not going to discuss that issue with intellectual honesty because I have already shown that what you support is invasion first, and then justifying it afterward.

Where is our boy Firm tonight - Is he out lollygagging? I've read most of this thread tonight laughing my ass off.

- R

Hi UT!

I'm working hard, and don't always get the time to post everything I'd like.

Glad you found the thead funny. I do as well (not being sarcastic at all, either!).

I'll try to address some more of the posters over the next few days. I've got a load of work to do, and sometimes I just steal the time to play here, but other times I just can't afford to keep up with all the ... deserving ... posters.

Firm

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Post #: 106

RE: SIGNIFICANT progress ... - 4/23/2008 12:11:19 AM

UtopianRanger

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quote:

I'm working hard, and don't always get the time to post everything I'd like.

Heh.... You work for a living.... And prolonged political discourse is hella time consuming... and sometimes even draining.

Again....It's a good thread.

- R

< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 4/23/2008 12:31:29 AM >

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Post #: 107

RE: SIGNIFICANT progress ... - 4/23/2008 6:21:23 PM

OrionTheWolf

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

quote:

ORIGINAL: OrionTheWolf has variously said:
What I do feel we need to do is address the Iranian issue, and make sure they stay out of it, and stop assisting fighters crossing the border. Not to mention the possibility of nuclear threat from Iran. the strategic positions of those area can be covered via air, unmanned craft and very few troops...at this time in some areas we are progressing but losing ground in others. The problems between the religious factions have been going on for a very long time, and as we are liked more by one we are disliked more by another. As we help one, the other uses it as a way to show we are the enemy. It is a quagmire that cannot be won by the measures that we would normally apply...The cost is going to bankrupt us. I am all for doing what needs to be done, but we must be fiscally responsible about it...I see many people like to use excuses, rather than accept responsibility for their own actions.

If you supported this misadventure then it's on you, pal.

Yep. I accept my responsibility in the mess that started. Now I am working to get some better solutions. What are you doing? as part of the process, every American should accept their responsibility, and every American should think of ways to make things better. Do you accept your responsibility, or are you just going to offer justification why you have no responsibity in this.

quote:

You talk like a war-hawk, but have ultimately resigned yourself to a position of withdrawal from Iraq. So in other words, your foreign policy aspirations in Iraq resulted in utter failures. Gee, what other astonishingly myopic and repulsive advice can we look forward to from your corner? Oh yeah, Iran - another fight we can't win so we had best leave off.

Provide example of what you mean by "You talk like a war-hawk", and could you give me your definition of what a war-hawk is, so that a rational discussion can take place?

quote:

Brilliant!

What is brilliant? Your practice justification why you have no responsibility for anything that happens, that goes bad?

quote:

Neither fish nor fowl, tail tucked well between legs. Why not just admit failure right now, OrionTheWolf? Or is the point to spend lots of money on private contractors and drive up the price of oil?

Failure at what? First announce what the goals you are speaking of. If you mean the military actions is a complete failure, then you are wrong. If you mean that is it a general failure, then I agree. You do not seem to read some of the things I post, and you can ignore them if you wish. It just shows your ignorance of my position when you try to engage me with your emotional arguements.

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RE: SIGNIFICANT progress ... - 4/23/2008 8:52:42 PM

SugarMyChurro

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Gee, what's so wrong with getting the fuck out of Afghanistan and Iraq right now and then trying Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Rice for war crimes?

That's taking responsibility.

I think you meant something else though, right?

Just how many times do the right things have to be suggested?

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RE: SIGNIFICANT progress ... - 4/25/2008 4:39:11 AM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

Gee, what's so wrong with getting the fuck out of Afghanistan and Iraq right now and then trying Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Rice for war crimes?

That's taking responsibility.

I think you meant something else though, right?

Just how many times do the right things have to be suggested?

Tell me Sugar ... were you always against the war in Afghanistan as well?

Firm

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RE: SIGNIFICANT progress ... - 4/25/2008 4:59:01 AM

SugarMyChurro

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Yes.

See my comments in the Charlie Wilson thread. We create these monsters like OBL - that's a fact. We interfere and then the chickens come home to roost. How is that playing it smart?

Organizations like the WTO need to be dismantled. We go into the world and tell everyone else the terms of trade and that they have to trade with us or face our wrath instead. That's just idiocy of the highest order. That's why they attacked the World Trade Center - the supreme symbol of our overweening greed.

The way to do it smart would be to make friends in the world through a respectful program of trade and non-interference. We offer a fair trade and stop fucking people over for their resources.

I guess that's too honest for some.

P.S. Please don't tell me we are in Afghanistan to get OBL. That's demonstrably false. And he's probably dead already. AQ never existed as such. It's all bullshit.

< Message edited by SugarMyChurro -- 4/25/2008 5:03:20 AM >

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RE: SIGNIFICANT progress ... - 4/25/2008 5:05:30 AM

caitlyn

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro
The way to do it smart would be to make friends in the world through a respectful program of trade and non-interference. We offer a fair trade and stop fucking people over for their resources.

I guess that's too honest for some.

The first, is a wonderful point ... and completely accurate in my view.

Sadly, it will be ruined by the last bit of masterbation.

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Post #: 112

RE: SIGNIFICANT progress ... - 4/25/2008 5:34:20 AM

SugarMyChurro

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"The most important thing is for us to find Osama bin Laden. It is our number one priority and we will not rest until we find him."
- G.W. Bush, 9/13/01

"I want justice...There's an old poster out West, as I recall, that said, 'Wanted: Dead or Alive,'"
- G.W. Bush, 9/17/01, UPI

"...Secondly, he is not escaping us. This is a guy, who, three months ago, was in control of a county [sic]. Now he's maybe in control of a cave. He's on the run. Listen, a while ago I said to the American people, our objective is more than bin Laden. But one of the things for certain is we're going to get him running and keep him running, and bring him to justice. And that's what's happening. He's on the run, if he's running at all. So we don't know whether he's in cave with the door shut, or a cave with the door open -- we just don't know...."
- Bush, in remarks in a Press Availablity with the Press Travel Pool,
The Prairie Chapel Ranch, Crawford TX, 12/28/01, as reported on
official White House site

"I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and really don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority."
- G.W. Bush, 3/13/02

"I am truly not that concerned about him."
- G.W. Bush, repsonding to a question about bin Laden's whereabouts,
3/13/02 (The New American, 4/8/02)

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RE: SIGNIFICANT progress ... - 4/25/2008 6:08:39 AM

Zensee

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KY, I thought you'd have the sense to let this thread die, not to resurrect with an inflammatory one-liner. Have you been speculating in napalm futures again?

So when can we expect the page and a half of rebuttals you promised?

Z.

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RE: SIGNIFICANT progress ... - 4/25/2008 7:23:27 AM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

KY, I thought you'd have the sense to let this thread die, not to resurrect with an inflammatory one-liner. Have you been speculating in napalm futures again?

So when can we expect the page and a half of rebuttals you promised?

Z.

Sorry, I never promised a page and a half of rebuttals.

As far as my comment to Sugar, I was just curious, in rereading the thread, if he actually meant to include Afghanistan.

Other than that, with him, I pretty much understand his positions, his reasoning and his idealistic belief system.

I am still considering a response to one of your earlier post. But, as I mentioned to Utopian Ranger, I work quite a bit. This may be a dead thread to you, but I quit a thread when I decide to do so.

Firm

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RE: SIGNIFICANT progress ... - 4/25/2008 1:55:22 PM

FirmhandKY

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

As has been pointed out endlessly, KY - bush lied (and lied and lied about lieing and...) to get into Iraq. Defending that by cherry picking possible benefits from a heap or disasters, is rationalisation.

Rationalization is the process of constructing a logical justification for a decision, action or lack thereof that was originally arrived at through a different mental process.

Operating on that definition of "rationalization", I'm afraid you are incorrect, Z.

You may claim (and may well be correct) that Bush is "rationalizing" his reasons for the war in Iraq. I, however, am not doing so here, nor have I ever done so.

This thread is simply about the fact that things seem to be going better in Iraq (i.e. advancing towards a more stable nation) than they have in the previous years.

I have always thought that the ME needed shaking up, one way or the other, although a war by the US wasn't at the top of my list. But since we are there, it is an opportunity to accomplish certain goals that will benefit the entire world.

Does that make me opportunistic? *shrugs* If you want to use a word with negative connotation, feel free.

But "rationalization" is not something of which you can successfully accuse me, especially without knowing my mind and beliefs.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

As for "self-superior", you confirmed my suspicion that it was a barb wrapped in cotton woool.

No. Some people have an inability to to distinguish between "being polite" and "being passive aggressive". Neither Caitlyn nor Treasure are passive aggressive.

I'm probably just safe in assuming that in your social environment hidden barbs and insults are so common that your primary focus is to look for the insult (kinda the opposite of the old joke about "there must be a horse in here somewhere!"), rather than appreciate the effort to be clear without deliberately insulting.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Zensee

As for flames, I'm not the one who started a thread with heat written all over it.

Most (all?) of the gratuitously insulting language in this thread was from the "anti-war" crowd. Who can't even discuss the topic. They have to deflect and change the subject. Insulting people is one of their most trusted methods to do this.

I wonder why that is?

So ... tell me Z ... are things improving in Iraq from - say - two years ago?

Firm

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RE: SIGNIFICANT progress ... - 4/25/2008 3:13:37 PM

OrionTheWolf

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

Gee, what's so wrong with getting the fuck out of Afghanistan and Iraq right now and then trying Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld and Rice for war crimes?

Out of Iraq yes, but there is actually some real things that still need to be done in Afghanistan. The Canadians should take the lead, and the American forces should be under their direction.

quote:

That's taking responsibility.

Actually engaging in discussions of the points, without slinging unsupported insults, and then accepting the fact that if you are an American, that you have some responsibility. That is taking responsibility. Continuing to contact your Congressman and Senators about doing something, that is responsibility. I have seen you blame so many people, and then state "well I did not vote for Bush so I am not responsible" so many times that it shows that you have no true constructive input on this matter. You thrive on the negativity of it.

quote:

I think you meant something else though, right?

A more specific question is likely to get a more specific answer.

quote:

Just how many times do the right things have to be suggested?

First, you state this from a position of moral superiority (thanks Caitlyn) so your statement has to be looked at from an objective view. If they are the right things, the the number of times will be determined by the ideads being implemented. The right thing is very unclear for many. The easy thing seems to be very apparent for some though.

Edited to add: So were you going to support your claim of calling me a war hawk?

< Message edited by OrionTheWolf -- 4/25/2008 3:14:14 PM >

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RE: SIGNIFICANT progress ... - 4/25/2008 3:19:34 PM

OrionTheWolf

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

Yes.

See my comments in the Charlie Wilson thread. We create these monsters like OBL - that's a fact. We interfere and then the chickens come home to roost. How is that playing it smart?

I agree, and now we are getting to some of the meat. Our foreign policy has not been effective and has actually bitten us many times.

quote:

Organizations like the WTO need to be dismantled. We go into the world and tell everyone else the terms of trade and that they have to trade with us or face our wrath instead. That's just idiocy of the highest order. That's why they attacked the World Trade Center - the supreme symbol of our overweening greed.

Absolutely agree here, but I am looking at it from a US point. I believe in what Jefferson said "Trade with all, and ally with none", when he was speaking about foreign affairs. To do this we need to pull some teeth from the corporations.

quote:

The way to do it smart would be to make friends in the world through a respectful program of trade and non-interference. We offer a fair trade and stop fucking people over for their resources.

I agree to an extent. The government should not be involved in fucking people over. If a company does it, then they need to suffer the consequences of their actions. If a people are too weak to defend against a stronger force, then nature states they should go by the wayside. So in short, if someone is too weak to protect what they have, it really isn't theirs.

quote:

I guess that's too honest for some.

P.S. Please don't tell me we are in Afghanistan to get OBL. That's demonstrably false. And he's probably dead already. AQ never existed as such. It's all bullshit.

Actually this is the kind of shit I love to talk about, and when we get to the meat, many of those in the middle are in agreement.

Now to the fundamental problem, our politicians. The Dems and Reps will never change until the American people start tossing them out of office. Are you prepared to vote a third party, or for an opposing party, just to make a point to the politicians that business as usual bullshit is not going to be tolerated?

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RE: SIGNIFICANT progress ... - 4/25/2008 4:42:49 PM

UtopianRanger

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quote:

ORIGINAL: caitlyn

quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro
The way to do it smart would be to make friends in the world through a respectful program of trade and non-interference. We offer a fair trade and stop fucking people over for their resources.

I guess that's too honest for some.

The first, is a wonderful point ... and completely accurate in my view.

Sadly, it will be ruined by the last bit of masterbation.

HAR!!

I laugh my ass off when read something in the order of we're ''protecting our interests''

To which I say.....'' MF.. our interests are right here in the states....In North America --- Get out of everyone else's backyard.....and quit peeking through the window and mind your own business.

The managers currently running this country, remind me of a bunch of paranoid, gossipy old women that worry about everyone else's business but their own.

It's like the fat guy who smokes twenty-five cigars and moves into your neighborhood and buys the biggest corner lot.....next thing you know this hump is trying to control everything.

Anyways....mind your own business and get your own house in order......

- R

< Message edited by UtopianRanger -- 4/25/2008 4:47:47 PM >

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RE: SIGNIFICANT progress ... - 4/25/2008 4:49:00 PM

Politesub53

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

P.S. Please don't tell me we are in Afghanistan to get OBL. That's demonstrably false. And he's probably dead already. AQ never existed as such. It's all bullshit.

Im not sure eaxactly what you mean by "as such " AQ certainly existed from the early 90`s. There is a good book on the subject by Jane Corbin

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/meet_the_team/2134640.stm

I agree OBL is probably dead, i have read some where that the CIA even think this is likely. The most significant event for Afghanistan is the peace talks between Militants and the Pakistani government presently taking place.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7364320.stm

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