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Alternative Fuels Roundtable - 4/19/2008 10:02:01 AM   
TheHeretic


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From: California, USA
Status: offline 		         I don't envision a day when gas stations offer six or more options of completely incompatible fuel forms for your car.  Even the green-handled diesel pump is too confusing for some consumers.  Then you have the storage issues.  One or two of the alternates are going to have to rise to the top and become the new standards.  

         Which do you think it will be?  Which SHOULD it be?  What are the pros and cons of the various contenders?  What factors will play in besides the simple efficiency and ability of a given fuel to do the job?

    

        I think we are going to see a lot more with ethanol, even though there are enormous downsides to it.  It lets the oil companies keep right on making money, AND drives profits through the roof for the farming conglomerates.  The fact that a gallon of it won't carry you nearly as far as a gallon of gasoline somehow gets left out of the discussion.

         Just on efficiency and cleanliness, the various compressed gases, including plain old air, seem like the clear choice, but there is the Hindenburg Factor.  In a worst case, a gasoline powered car might explode in a ball of fire, but they lack the potential to take out a block of houses. 

        We will always need to move heavy things, over long distances.  For that, I'm really interested in the possibilities of bio-diesel.  Squeezing it out of high-efficiency crops, grown with recycled waste water, sounds like an excellent way to go.  For long distance commuters, low emission bio-diesel hybrids might be the best of all worlds.


       If you had half a years salary to invest in the field, what would you put it into?

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RE: Alternative Fuels Roundtable - 4/19/2008 10:49:08 AM   
celticlord2112


Posts: 5732
Status: offline 		Biodiesels are the odds-on favorite. Catalyzing normal vegetable oil with caustic soda or other strong alkaloid produces a hydrocarbon that existing diesel engines can utilize (although I do seem to recall that some modifications would be needed for optimum efficiency). All that is really required for biodiesels to achieve popularity is automanufacturers to increase their use of diesel engines--energy companies would quickly figure out how to produce biodiesel in quantity.

Biodiesels are much more environmentally friendly than fossil fuels as well.

Being derived from agricultural products ensures a renewable source. Indeed, if one filters out the biologicals from used cooking oil, oils that might otherwise cost for disposal.

With relatively low barriers to mass market adoption and a lack of environmental toxicity, biodiesels have a clear advantage towards other forms.

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RE: Alternative Fuels Roundtable - 4/19/2008 10:52:47 AM   
Zensee


Posts: 1564
Joined: 9/4/2004
Status: offline 		Good question.

1: Compressed air. I don't think a car with a 500 mile supply would pose any serious risk if the tank ruptured, as both preventing that and / or reducing any explosive result is well within our capability. Air is everywhere and a local, natural power source (sun and wind especially) could be used by recharging stations to fill their own reservoirs, with electricity as a back up source. Build an adjacent fitness centre and capture all that stair-master time for resale - that's win-win-win. Local power supplies would eliminate tanker deliveries and the wear and tear they represent.

Add energy recapture technology (i.e. primary brakes that recharge the air tanks) and you have a winner.

2. Electricity. Heavier in the sense of technology and vehicle weight but, with increased common usage, the capability and safety of storage methods will improve. Again local filling stations can use local natural power sources to provide their own supply with the grid filling in for peak demand times.


Liquid fuels should be reserved for aircraft and emergency vehicles or specialty land craft only. Also for some marine applications. But NOT for general use by the public.


Z.



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RE: Alternative Fuels Roundtable - 4/19/2008 11:15:53 AM   
atursvcMaam


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Status: offline 		     i tend to favor electric.  The potential for service stations to carry interchangeable packs keeps the fueling time reasonable, and allows for a recharge to happen during off peak times. 
    There is a wrinkle with electric that currently limits range, but could actually work to the user's benefit...overcoming that would be where my year (or more) salary would be invested.  On paper the range issues could be overcome with a renewable charging source.   in addition to regenerative braking, on paper electric can provide an 8 to 12 hour range between charges (based on the specs and power draw of a projected vehicle which would have given 120 miles per charge).  (2 to 6 hours depending on source).   
       i have had this on the drawwing board since the gas crisis of the 70's but have yet to find anyone scared or crazy enough to invest in it more than a nod and a smile.
       The car companies do not wish to retool much, and the service stations/gas companies do not want to replace gasoline, nor do they want the reduction in service one tends to find with electric motors.  (when was the last time your vaccuum cleaner had to go in for a tune-up? or emissions testing?)

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RE: Alternative Fuels Roundtable - 4/19/2008 11:21:15 AM   
lronitulstahp


Posts: 5392
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Status: offline 		i cast my vote for SOFC's...

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RE: Alternative Fuels Roundtable - 4/19/2008 11:32:33 AM   
SugarMyChurro


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quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
Biodiesels are the odds-on favorite...Biodiesels are much more environmentally friendly than fossil fuels as well.


Hilariously myopic. Where do you get this stuff?

Biodiesel is great for ADM and no one else.



I agree with Zensee. Plus add in my previous posts about being anti-coal, anti-oil and pro solar, wind, and hydroelectric.

This could be a very different world, but we have to wrest the wheel of spaceship earth away from a bunch of greedy, short-sighted assholes first.


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RE: Alternative Fuels Roundtable - 4/19/2008 2:33:58 PM   
Aneirin


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Joined: 3/18/2006
From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		This does interest me, as an alternative and viable fuel, I will watch this topic with interest, as I like alternative science.

But something to add, I once had a Land-Rover of 1955 vintage, it was petrol, but someone who had a two litre diesel managed in the past to run theirs on sardine oil.

For short trips, why depend on fuel, what about HPVs, the recumbrant type is much more powerful than a bike?


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RE: Alternative Fuels Roundtable - 4/19/2008 3:26:34 PM   
azropedntied


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Joined: 7/25/2005
From: Phx AZ
Status: offline 		why do they sell 'flex' fuel vehicles ,yet in az for example i have yet to see a single station offer the alternitive fuel ?
I am holding out for my jetson car that fold s up into a brief case .

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RE: Alternative Fuels Roundtable - 4/19/2008 3:29:23 PM   
Real_Trouble


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Status: offline 		Ultimately, you want fuels that are either extremely difficult to exhaust a supply of, or entirely impossible to exhaust a supply of (barring the destruction of the earth).

Thus, I'd be pro-electric, because what I am really for is a sensible combination of wind, water, solar, and nuclear power.

Coal simply prolongs the issue that oil already brings to the table (and is a major pollutant or major pain in the ass to produce), while biofuels require a substitution effect with food.


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RE: Alternative Fuels Roundtable - 4/19/2008 3:30:03 PM   
cyberdude611


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Joined: 5/7/2006
Status: offline 		Unleaded and diesel are going nowhere anytime soon.

Ethanol is a joke. We have people starving for food and we are going to burn it for energy? And dont for 1 second think that is green energy. The amount of crops required to make any difference at all would just destroy the soil and the cost for corn (which is in much more food products than you think) would soar.
Then what are we going to do with all this oil? We cant eat that!

The only reason some people are pushing corn/ethanol/biodiesel stuff is because they are responding to the farming lobby. Corn, soy, and sugar farmers stand to become multi-billionaires if this product becomes widespread. Notice the senators that favor this energy...what states are they from? Farming states.

It's all about money....

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RE: Alternative Fuels Roundtable - 4/19/2008 3:35:16 PM   
Aneirin


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From: Tamaris
Status: offline 		But isn't the bar of electric the weight of the energy holding devices , i.e. batteries, lead acid at that?

As I see it, unless there is a breakthrough in technology regarding a suitable lightweight storage device, electricity will not be  viable.


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RE: Alternative Fuels Roundtable - 4/19/2008 4:29:20 PM   
atursvcMaam


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Status: offline 		actually it is very feasible with existing technology,  within current vehicle weights and sizes.  it would tend to give the oil companies nightmares, and it is simple enough that a description would get a pat on the head, someone would develop it and i would still be living on cup o'soup.  Financially it could be mass produced with the same ticket price as vehicles which currently exist.  Perhaps a touch higher off the lot, but it would make itself up in fuel costs within the first year.
   Not that i've given this any thought.

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RE: Alternative Fuels Roundtable - 4/19/2008 5:32:00 PM   
Real_Trouble


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

But isn't the bar of electric the weight of the energy holding devices , i.e. batteries, lead acid at that?

As I see it, unless there is a breakthrough in technology regarding a suitable lightweight storage device, electricity will not be  viable.



Only to a point; there's better options than what currently exists in the way of batter production for vehicles, especially larger scale ones.

Hydrogen is probably also ideal from that perspective in the long run.  Keep in mind that even in a worst case scenario, we clearly have functioning hybrids and a few electric cars currently.  As they come into greater use and technology improves, I don't expect this to be a long-term problem.

I mean, would you rather try to run with liquid coal?  Biofuels?  Magically find more oil?

I agree electricity is not perfect, but I don't see a more compelling argument than a combination of renewable and nuclear energy to solve our current needs.


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RE: Alternative Fuels Roundtable - 4/19/2008 5:39:08 PM   
TheHeretic


Posts: 19100
Joined: 3/25/2007
From: California, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SugarMyChurro

quote:

ORIGINAL: celticlord2112
Biodiesels are the odds-on favorite...Biodiesels are much more environmentally friendly than fossil fuels as well.


Where do you get this stuff?





         The environmentally friendly part?  Here's a chart for you...
      http://www.veggiebus.com/emissions.html  (They look like lefties, but until I correct a minor speed issue on this 'puter, I don't feel like digging through PDF's from the EPA)


       You did bring up a very important factor, Sugar, with your crack about it being good for ADM.  There are powerful elements within the environmental movement which are far more interested in using it to push their own political/social agenda.  Bio-diesel can't be a good alternative because it doesn't punish corporations???

       One of these days we are going to have to discuss the long-term consequences of a genuine economic collapse in the US.  It wouldn't be Utopia.

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RE: Alternative Fuels Roundtable - 4/19/2008 6:34:23 PM   
slaveboyforyou


Posts: 3607
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From: Arkansas, U.S.A.
Status: offline 		I being the pessimist I am, do not think any viable alternatives to fossil fuels is coming soon.  Ethanol uses up too much land and uses too much energy to be feasible.  Biodiesel also uses up too much agricultural land.  We need that land for food production.  Wind power is okay, but you need a lot of land to do it unless you do it off-shore.  I haven't seen any of the coastal states rushing to have wind turbines off their coasts.  Hydroelectric power is fine, but you have to alter the environment to do it.  Damning up rivers and streams is not good for the environment, and the electricity produced is limited.  Of course there is the idea of using tides to generate power, but that's extremely expensive at the moment and the technology isn't perfect.  We still don't know what effect tidal generators would have on sea life.  We do produce a lot of waste, so there is methane.  But, methane is a pollutant.  Hydrogen sounds good, but takes massive amounts of power to make.  Solar sounds great, and I would even like to have a few of those solar panels on my roof.  But completely relying on it for our massive power needs would be way too expensive and ineffiecient. 

In the end, we are left with petroleum, coal, and natural gas.  We are going to be reliant on all of them until I am an old man.  I think we will find ways to use them more efficently and with less environmental impact.  But we aren't going to be off of fossil fuels anytime in the near future. 

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RE: Alternative Fuels Roundtable - 4/19/2008 6:39:19 PM   
SugarMyChurro


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Joined: 4/26/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheHeretic
One of these days we are going to have to discuss the long-term consequences of a genuine economic collapse in the US.  It wouldn't be Utopia.


Not with your frame of reference, no.




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RE: Alternative Fuels Roundtable - 4/19/2008 6:56:04 PM   
atursvcMaam


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quote:

ORIGINAL: slaveboyforyou

I being the pessimist I am, do not think any viable alternatives to fossil fuels is coming soon.  Ethanol uses up too much land and uses too much energy to be feasible.  Biodiesel also uses up too much agricultural land.  We need that land for food production.  Wind power is okay, but you need a lot of land to do it unless you do it off-shore.  I haven't seen any of the coastal states rushing to have wind turbines off their coasts.  Hydroelectric power is fine, but you have to alter the environment to do it.  Damning up rivers and streams is not good for the environment, and the electricity produced is limited.  Of course there is the idea of using tides to generate power, but that's extremely expensive at the moment and the technology isn't perfect.  We still don't know what effect tidal generators would have on sea life.  We do produce a lot of waste, so there is methane.  But, methane is a pollutant.  Hydrogen sounds good, but takes massive amounts of power to make.  Solar sounds great, and I would even like to have a few of those solar panels on my roof.  But completely relying on it for our massive power needs would be way too expensive and ineffiecient. 

In the end, we are left with petroleum, coal, and natural gas.  We are going to be reliant on all of them until I am an old man.  I think we will find ways to use them more efficently and with less environmental impact.  But we aren't going to be off of fossil fuels anytime in the near future. 


i have a great deal of respect for those who work within the box, and have always admired those who can think outside the box, but have always been amazed when the box is the solution.

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live hard, die young and leave a good looking corpse when you die.
Love ya, but, when the zombies start chasing us, i am tripping you.
The glass is always full, the question is, "with what?"

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RE: Alternative Fuels Roundtable - 4/19/2008 6:56:53 PM   
Sanity


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From: Nampa, Idaho USA
Status: offline 		Biofuels, especially biodiesel made from algae looks very promising. It can be grown where other crops won't grow, from the ocean to vertical silos in towns, existing wastewater plants and ponds, dead lakes, the desert, using just wastewater and various wastes as fertilizer.

It's like spinning dung into gold.

quote:


If corn-based biofuels are the Britney Spears of the cleantech world (a fallen star but still all over the place), fuel made from algae is the next great American Idol winner (major potential in the pipeline).

And despite the fact that algae-to-biofuel startups have been taking their sweet time bringing a pond scum fuel product to market, some inroads have been made recently — GreenFuel is building its first plant, PetroSun starts producing at their farm on April 1, and big oil Chevron and Shell have made some early bets as well.

As we watch this play out, here are 15 algae biofuel firms that you should know about


< Message edited by Sanity -- 4/19/2008 7:17:47 PM >

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RE: Alternative Fuels Roundtable - 4/19/2008 6:59:17 PM   
slaveboyforyou


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quote:

i have a great deal of respect for those who work within the box, and have always admired those who can think outside the box, but have always been amazed when the box is the solution.


I have a great deal of respect for idealists and for realists.  I am amazed by those that think idealism is reality though. 

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RE: Alternative Fuels Roundtable - 4/19/2008 7:11:40 PM   
atursvcMaam


Posts: 1195
Joined: 5/10/2004
Status: offline 		not so much an idealist.  the math is based on an economy of scale.  how much power does a hybrid motor have to generate to run a hybrid electric car?

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live hard, die young and leave a good looking corpse when you die.
Love ya, but, when the zombies start chasing us, i am tripping you.
The glass is always full, the question is, "with what?"

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