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Different perspectives - 4/21/2008 8:13:44 AM   
RavenMuse


Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline 		After spending the weekend in the company of My girls ex dom and his new girl (nice lass, but young and just really beginning her exploration of what she is) one thing that really did get highlighted was the huge chasm of lack of understanding between the people for whom D/s is just something they DO at weekends and the lifestyler PoV.

Whilst much falls into the catagory of "If it works for you... fine" there is one area in particular that  really proved to be a sticking point. Not so much between he and I, but certainly between My girl and his new one. The issue of 'play punishments'

Without a doubt there was a great lack of actual control of her by him. she would push and play up to get numbers added to her 'punishment' tally. Whilst giggling and commenting that maybe she could save them up for her birthday next week... and could she have interest added too.

she completely didn't get the point when My girl calmly pointed out that in nearly six months she has only been 'punished' twice.... "because i try to be a good girl".

The whole play punishment thing, from My perspective is utterly counterproductive. It rewards and encourages bad behaviour... also presenting the dom as someone who lacks the confidence to simply take what he has the 'right' to take and that he needs to fabricate an excuse to take a cane to her ass.

In My Dynamic, unwanted behaviour is disciplined, the control is maintained (We have plenty of fun, laughs and cheeky banter but it is kept within limits). If she craves a particular form of play she asks or begs, if I want to indulge in a particular form of play I indulge... I need no excuse, I can so I do... the only reason I need is that I am in the mood to.

The differences, where clear in the interaction of the girls toward he and I. My girl, whilst having a laugh and joke with him, kept within limits, didn't push too far, didn't go beyond a joke... in short didn't show ME up with a disply of bad behaviour.

his girl however did show him up and to some extent he showd himself up and when she crossed the line he didn't have any control over her and I had to back her down... albeit verbaly (Because like hell was I going to sit there and ignore a bratty 18 year only trying to pull hairs out of My arm because she hopped it would earn her a caning.... which would have been in breach of protocol for Me to initiate anyhow as it was someone elses girl) and it didn't hit home to her what the difference was until the words "your actions make him look bad in My eyes!".... I think the girl does have potential because that hit home, stopped her in her tracks.... but till that point she simply didn't get it..... as for him, he should know better... but then he frankly didn't have control!

Does anyone else have examples of where such mismatches in perspective between BDSM players and lifestylers have cropped up like this?

(Hopefully some of those who just DO this at weekends will have examples of where lifestyler perspectives have caused the problem too... I am not trying to portray either as 'better' overall, just examaning issues which cause conflict when the two different perspectives clase on close proximity.)



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RE: Different perspectives - 4/21/2008 8:17:26 AM   
kinkypuppy2


Posts: 345
Joined: 11/4/2007
Status: offline 		I just would not allow it.

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RE: Different perspectives - 4/21/2008 8:29:39 AM   
KatyLied


Posts: 13029
Joined: 2/24/2005
From: Pennsylvania
Status: offline 		I don't understand why a dominant would want a pain in the ass that could not learn and would constantly require punishment.  Don't most people enjoy peaceful, harmonic relationships?


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RE: Different perspectives - 4/21/2008 8:31:50 AM   
RavenMuse


Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kinkypuppy2

I just would not allow it.


This isn't about what We would 'allow' in Our Own dynamics (I certainly have no tollerance for that kind of behaviour and that is reflected in My girl. she IS a 'good girl', she doesn't show Me up, I HAVE and maintain control) but rather the mismatch between player and lifestyler perspectives and situations where they have clashed.


_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

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RE: Different perspectives - 4/21/2008 8:34:03 AM   
RavenMuse


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Joined: 1/23/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: KatyLied

I don't understand why a dominant would want a pain in the ass that could not learn and would constantly require punishment.  Don't most people enjoy peaceful, harmonic relationships?



Thats how I view it also.... but I don't 'judge' how he handles things within his own relationship... I do 'judge' actions however that directly impact Me... which is where the clash of the two different perspectives arose.

< Message edited by RavenMuse -- 4/21/2008 8:35:09 AM >

_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

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RE: Different perspectives - 4/21/2008 8:37:30 AM   
toservez


Posts: 1733
Joined: 9/7/2006
From: All over now in Minnesota
Status: offline 		I see a lot of this in my years in the life and my time in local communities, in the end though it is finding a dynamic that works for the two people.

But yeah, I have seen a ton of what look like perfectly happy relationships that their power exchange dynamic is merely extended role play for top/bottom activity. For every submissive like this there are plenty of dominants that can only deal with doing anything to a submissive that the submissive directly wants as well.

If it works for them great and only take issue or judge if they then judge people like us as doing something wrong because we are not like them or the word abuse comes from their mouth.



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RE: Different perspectives - 4/21/2008 8:46:42 AM   
OmegaG


Posts: 1474
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		I went through years and years of being a pain in the ass.  I would push and demand and could basically be classified as a spoiled brat (this was in the vanilla world so I wasn't earning punishment).  I had to come to realization that the person I was with was not acting as I wanted him to and I was trying to goad him into being the person I desired.

Finally I came to the realization that I'd have more success with finding the person that I wouldn't desire to act out with rather then acting out to achive the desired effect.  This approach has been working much better thus far.

I would think that at 18 she still hasn't formulated her thoughts yet to know what would make a compatible partner yet and so she's not really knowing why she does what she does, but she's doing it for subconsious reasons.

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RE: Different perspectives - 4/21/2008 9:05:51 AM   
ProlificNeeds


Posts: 1061
Joined: 5/19/2007
Status: offline 		Unfortunately when one 'acts out' for attention, giving them attention only feeds the behavior. I will adopt this behavior if it is in humor to me and my partner, and in private. I however will not continue the foolishness of 'how about another 5 licks' when it's clear something I've done does bother my partner. It's not about authority or good behavior to me. It's about respect for my partner, D/s or not, I do not want my partner uncomfortable, ashamed, or disappointed in me.
All physical 'punishments' are playful in my relationships, because if there is an issue serious enough to warrent -real- disapproval, then it is handled in an adult manner with discussion, a flogger to the bottom solves nothing other then sating an urge to be flogged.

On the same kind of vein, my biggest peeve amid power exchange relationships that I have seen, is the claim that there is 'authority' and yet both parties lack respect for eachother. As if it's just a giant game.
Example: The sub female will pretend obedience and respect, yet will purposefully withold information so her dominant cannot forbid her to do something. The Dominant in turn instead of addressing the heart of the issue when he discovers the deceitfulness, will do something petty in return to try and 'get back' at his sub, and tries to pass it off as a justified 'punishment'.

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RE: Different perspectives - 4/21/2008 9:22:47 AM   
RavenMuse


Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ProlificNeeds

Example: The sub female will pretend obedience and respect, yet will purposefully withold information so her dominant cannot forbid her to do something. The Dominant in turn instead of addressing the heart of the issue when he discovers the deceitfulness, will do something petty in return to try and 'get back' at his sub, and tries to pass it off as a justified 'punishment'.


I've seen this too. Last year when going for a coffee with a couple of femsub friends (One more 'lifestyle' than the other). One was trying to cut down her smoking and needed direct permission from her Master before having one but was having trouble getting hold of Him by text. The other girl piped up "Just have one, He is hundreds of miles away and will never know".... "Wanna bet?" said I "it isn't just subs that talk to each other ladys and now I know what rules she is under she WILL stick to them or He WILL know!".

The reaction of the two girls was markedly different, the less lifestyle of the two looked horrified, whilst the one who was under a Masters control just smiled and said "i knew You would say that" and happily sent another begging text to her Master, now content to simply wait for the required permission before having a smoke.

(As it happened He was busy and not with His phone at that time so she went all evening without a cig). The point being that whilst she was struggling with the craving she respected the rules she was under (AKA showed she respected her Master). My comment simply helped her to stave off the craving and stick to what she knew she HAD to do.


_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

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RE: Different perspectives - 4/21/2008 9:35:35 AM   
ProlificNeeds


Posts: 1061
Joined: 5/19/2007
Status: offline 		RavenMuse:

That is a perfect example of what I was trying to describe. The flippant disregard for power exchange as if it were just a game. I suppose for some people it is, but somewhere in there it goes from 'casual' to 'disrespectful'.

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RE: Different perspectives - 4/21/2008 11:29:16 AM   
subtee


Posts: 5133
Joined: 7/26/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RavenMuse

Whilst much falls into the catagory of "If it works for you... fine" there is one area in particular that  really proved to be a sticking point. Not so much between he and I, but certainly between My girl and his new one. The issue of 'play punishments'
[snip]

The whole play punishment thing, from My perspective is utterly counterproductive. It rewards and encourages bad behaviour... also presenting the dom as someone who lacks the confidence to simply take what he has the 'right' to take and that he needs to fabricate an excuse to take a cane to her ass.

In My Dynamic, unwanted behaviour is disciplined, the control is maintained (We have plenty of fun, laughs and cheeky banter but it is kept within limits). If she craves a particular form of play she asks or begs, if I want to indulge in a particular form of play I indulge... I need no excuse, I can so I do... the only reason I need is that I am in the mood to.


his girl however did show him up and to some extent he showd himself up and when she crossed the line he didn't have any control over her and I had to back her down... albeit verbaly (Because like hell was I going to sit there and ignore a bratty 18 year only trying to pull hairs out of My arm because she hopped it would earn her a caning.... which would have been in breach of protocol for Me to initiate anyhow as it was someone elses girl) and it didn't hit home to her what the difference was until the words "your actions make him look bad in My eyes!".... I think the girl does have potential because that hit home, stopped her in her tracks.... but till that point she simply didn't get it..... as for him, he should know better... but then he frankly didn't have control!


quote:

Thats how I view it also.... but I don't 'judge' how he handles things within his own relationship... I do 'judge' actions however that directly impact Me... which is where the clash of the two different perspectives arose.

[Emphases added]

It seems to me you are taking the girl to task...shouldn't he be the one in control? If he is not, shouldn't he be to blame? Just curious... 

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RE: Different perspectives - 4/21/2008 12:34:40 PM   
RavenMuse


Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: subtee
It seems to me you are taking the girl to task...shouldn't he be the one in control? If he is not, shouldn't he be to blame? Just curious... 


The girls actions where what highlighted the issue, but if there is any core causal factor... as you highlighted in My OP... he showed himself up by lacking any control..... I had already presented the issue as being HIS 'problem'.... however when discussing the events it is her actions presenting the problem and thus what is presented in the example. Also with the point I used to bring her to a dead stop... the fact that her actions made HIM look bad!

The 'blame' was in the correct place.

If My girl oversteps the mark, the discussion point maybe those actions but the issue under the spotlight would be a control issue... The 'buck' would stop at MY door.


_____________________________

This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.

Owner of metalmiss

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RE: Different perspectives - 4/21/2008 12:46:56 PM   
colouredin


Posts: 4279
Joined: 2/2/2007
Status: offline 		Oh each to their own i say. I know girls and boys that play up because it works in their dynamic I see punishment as something you dont want to happen, play is something differant, punishment isnt meant to be fun. But differant people want differant things. I knew a brat once, I didnt really want to associate with her, I had to on occasion, she was just a nasty little attention seeker which was due to her own insecurity, I didnt hide the fact that I thought she was a bit pathetic because she would try to encourage others into her behaviour which is all a bit juvanile. If it works in thier relationship its fine.

However  I hate the whole "you are showing him up" thing I have had that said to me, I have also had "you are not acting like a submissive" purely because I dont treat every tom dick and harry like I am theirs (especially not the silly little psudo Doms who learned who they were by reading porn) One persons brat is anothers good girl, differant people want differant things, some want a bratty submissive, just because its not something that I do personally doesnt mean that I should look down on others that do it. .

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RE: Different perspectives - 4/21/2008 3:39:47 PM   
Hissltora


Posts: 41
Joined: 8/23/2007
Status: offline 		**FR**
 
Yes, i've been around girls like that, and yes, i did find it uncomfortable that she didn't understand why i wouldn't join in her 'fun' (interrupting, being flippant to her owner, telling embarassing stories, not staying in one place) . She really thought that misbehaving for attention wasn't all that bad, and that Sir really wouldn't mind, i mean, hell, her's didn't, and he was the Uber-Dom in her eyes. *rolls eyes* Sir did not reply to any of her comments or actions, and when at one point she turned to me and asked what His deal was, He looked down and said He refused to acknowledge little girls in an adult setting. She pouted and turned to her owner, who gave her a stern look and continued the conversation. i shrugged and said she brought it on herself, perhaps she would think next time before starting up her antics.
 
In the case that RavenMuse was using for illustrating purpose, she should have been immediately rebuffed. Not necessarily for any protocol issues, that can differ as far as night v day, but the fact she was invading others' space and physically accosting them, with the arm hair pulling... THAT is major misbehavior edging towards grievance. Would anyone cheerfully chuckle and say, "What a cute puppy!" if said puppy was painfully gnawing on a guest's hand? So why should the sentient human girl-sub not be held to at least a similar standard?! A common vanilla etiquette standard? 
 
My best friend is a weekend kinkster, and doesn't fully grasp the depth that my orientation runs through me, and through Sir. At first, when trying to rearrange plans due to restrictions imposed by Sir, she became frustrated and demanded to know why i was tolerating it, why i didn't just blow Him off and beg for mercy later. i answered simply "Not all pain is good, especially the kind i get from disappointing Him." Huge gulf of difference!
 
Any of this help?
 
slave tora, devoted to Sir N

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RE: Different perspectives - 4/21/2008 5:57:08 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		I dont know that it's not that she "didn't get the point" simply that the point isn't relevant to her or their relationship.

I understand there can be frustration in getting others to "get" service and long term submission versus kinky vacation weekend fun, but that doesn't really mean much in the end.  I'm sure you do things that she would say "you totally don't get" about her and her life.

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RE: Different perspectives - 4/21/2008 6:13:49 PM   
MadameXTC


Posts: 96
Joined: 9/30/2004
Status: offline 		I think things work differently for different relationships. My idea is that the person who is supposed to be the submissive partner or under the will of another is a direct representation of their Dominant. For me if someone acts as a brat it could be just who they are, but it could also mean that there is not enough control in that relationship. Everything has a place and a time. Bratty behaviour can be fun if in the right place and right time and with the right person. I find that as I grow in the world of Dominance and submission I look back on the idea that yes I was once that bratty sub, and hell sometimes I still am. But it would be very disrespectful to be the brat in the wrong setting and ultimatly I am a reflection to the other half of my relationship.


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RE: Different perspectives - 4/21/2008 8:56:40 PM   
WhiteFox77


Posts: 66
Joined: 4/21/2008
Status: offline 		Oh, I've been there.  In fact I've been there on both sides (we were all young and inexperienced once).

As you titled the post it's a completely different perspective.  By your's and my diffinition, he isn't even a master, and she certainly isn't a sub/slave.  So should he really be expected to have control?  Should she really be expected to do as he says?  They live by different rules and expectations.  The problem comes in that we all use the same words but have different deffinitions.  It's bound to lead to mistakes in communication, and is over all just not a good thing.  I avoid spending time around people like that, not because I think they are "doing it wrong", but because I find I have little to no common ground with them.

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WhiteFox77
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RE: Different perspectives - 4/21/2008 9:12:39 PM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		You get exactly what you tolerate.

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RE: Different perspectives - 4/21/2008 11:01:23 PM   
MasterFireMaam


Posts: 5587
Joined: 3/1/2006
From: Charleston, WV
Status: offline 		In many more ways than this, people mistake scene actions for relationship dynamics. Being a family in the 50s was about so much more than what we see on Leave It To Beaver. Same holds true for this lifestyle.

Master Fire


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RE: Different perspectives - 4/21/2008 11:26:57 PM   
TethersEnd


Posts: 102
Joined: 1/29/2007
Status: offline 		I've often wondered if I'm too compliant. 
I've often wondered if I'm boring because of it.
I've considered trying to let my Sam out, but fail miserable other then in a font occasionally. 
I've learned I'm Me and IF I'm not fitting in, it's time to go. 


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