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RE: Bill Cosby and Black Conservatism - 4/25/2008 12:25:59 PM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		Level, you have been on here long enough to know what a hot button topic this is.  You seem, totally disingenuously, to be pretending otherwise. You clearly have nothing to add to the debate yourself - in fact, you state cryptically that you are "too diplomatic" to put up your own personal opinion.  It's a big issue for someone with no viewpoint ...or maybe you'll climb off the fence long enough to regale us with your thoughts on Bill Cosby's bugbears? I'm sure that would be fascinating.

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Profile   Post #: 61
RE: Bill Cosby and Black Conservatism - 4/25/2008 1:24:28 PM   
SeeksOnlyOne


Posts: 2012
Joined: 5/14/2007
Status: offline 		havent read any of the replies so forgive me if this is so far off how the thread has gone....

i have always loved bill cosby.  grew up listening to his comedy albums and have always respected him as a human being.  but this am on the news i saw him say something that pissed me off.

he was speaking, in atlanta i think, defending marvin arrington, our local judge who cleared all the white folks out of his courtroom to address only the black people.  the judge has  said he was saddened bu seeing so many black young people go through his courtrooom daily, and he wanted to speak to them only.  and i was kinda ok with it at that point.

then this clip this am where bill says i wanna know where the pissed off white people are? and why they are pissed.  i wanna speak to "my people".  the 2 of them seem to be implying that there are problems that are specific to the black community, and as black leaders they want to address them only to the audience their message is meant for.....other blacks.

good for them......make the world a better place.

but for some reason, knowing if a whiteperson said there were problems that were specific or rampant in the black community, or imagining the outrage that would happen if a white judge did the same thing that arrington did, or if a white comedian said the things cosby said.........i cant get over the fact that it pisses me off.

i like to believe im not racist and judge people based on who they are.  but i get pissy theres a black miss america and a miss black america pagent, but a miss white america pagent would be protested.  an naacp, but no chance in hell whites could have the same.

you cant be equal and want to be treated the same, yet demand to pick and choose when you are exclusive to your own only.

and im pissed at the fact that this whole thing  pisses me off too.......blech

let the flames begin

_____________________________

it aint no good til it hurts just a little bit....jimmy somerville

in those moments of solitude, does everyone sometimes think they are insane? or is it just me?

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RE: Bill Cosby and Black Conservatism - 4/25/2008 2:13:35 PM   
Level


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Joined: 3/3/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

Level, you have been on here long enough to know what a hot button topic this is. 


Absolutely, and that's what often makes a good thread, IMO.

quote:

 You seem, totally disingenuously, to be pretending otherwise.


Okay, at the risk of looking even more "disingenous", how so? I don't think I've ever stated anything to that effect.
 
quote:

 You clearly have nothing to add to the debate yourself - in fact, you state cryptically that you are "too diplomatic" to put up your own personal opinion.


When I told Rich that (and in my original comment to heartcream), I didn't have this thread particulary in mind. Generally, I was talking about my views on some people here; I keep my opinion of them to myself, the alternative would do no one any good. Thus, I try to be "diplomatic". 

quote:

 It's a big issue for someone with no viewpoint ...or maybe you'll climb off the fence long enough to regale us with your thoughts on Bill Cosby's bugbears? I'm sure that would be fascinating.


Most things I expound upon are fascinating, true enough..... but, I think I have given a number of my thoughts on both Cosby and this topic, RL.

quote:

Well, we all should be listening; as you state, anyone can benefit from what he has to say.

 
quote:

juliet, I would differ in that sometimes it is the parents fault, to a degree. But there is no single answer to "why?", as far as I can tell

 
quote:

I agree, life can be terribly complex, but the things Cosby prescribes form the foundation for any chance at bettering one's life. He's not right about everything, but society could learn a great deal from him, and improve by doing so.

 
quote:

I don't know about the superiority, but the rage? Yes, because it's felt here, too.

 
quote:

You're right, DG, peer pressure can be a back breaker for a lot of kids.

 
quote:

The term racist does get tossed around for epousing some of these things, if not on this thread, then in the "real world". Sometimes it fits, sometimes it doesn't.

 
quote:

While it's possible to put one's self in another's shoes, you're right, it's not the same as living in those shoes.

 
So.....
 
Now, back to your post:
 
quote:

lronitulstahp, thanks for your post - I couldn't agree more.


So, you think Cosby is on to something, too?

quote:

 I'm so tired of people who are too "diplomatic" to share their reasoning on why proportionately more black people live in poverty than white people. 


If I'm the "diplomat" in question, then I've already stated here, and elsewhere, that I see peer pressure, shattered families, lack of fathers/good role models in the homes, drugs, little opportunity, woe-is-me-ism, and racism as contributors to the poverty issue black people face.
 
No one problem. No one solution.

quote:

 One thing you can be sure of is that it will include some form of pathologising all black people with a particular characteristic. 


For those of you following at home, this is where RL seems to suggest that I see all black people as shiftless, lazy, and addicted to either welfare checks or crack, but, being stuck on my fence, am unwilling to fess up.
 
Wrong, wrong, wrong.
 
I've never said, I've never suggested it, because I've never thought it.

quote:

 This "pathology" is not real and cannot be quantified but it exists in their minds for one reason: it allows them to feel better. So by extension, Cosby's rants allow them to feel better - that's why it got posted, as a result of another thread.


Okay, here comes my "disingenous confusion" one more time. What other thread??

quote:

There are certain debates that cannot be held with those who begin them unwilling to accept the truth.


We sure as hell can agree on that one.
 
quote:

Leaving aside the validity or otherwise of Cosby's argument for a moment, when do other ethnic groups get the benefit of the deliberations of CM's finest minds?

 
Do you have an issue with threads regarding black people being brought up? I ask that in seriousness. I'm assuming you think blacks are being made targets, or picked on, which I don't care for, either.
 
Why did I post the thread? The same reason I post any of them, I found it (A) interesting, and (B) believed it had the potential for a good debate. The same reasons I've began threads on the people and events on every continent on earth, except for perhaps Antartica.



_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to RealityLicks)
Profile   Post #: 63
RE: Bill Cosby and Black Conservatism - 4/25/2008 2:21:17 PM   
lronitulstahp


Posts: 5392
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quote:

 
Trying to be clear, here; as Griswold stated something similar earlier, I hope he isn't one that you feel that way towards. I'd be verrrry surprised if he were a bigot.
i don't believe it was Griswold...can't remember.  In a way, i was responding to a few threads....
quote:

  
I feel like hugging the hell out of you...

HELL...in moi???  Hardly....
 

quote:

  lronitulstahp, thanks for your post - I couldn't agree more.

Can we be in agreement about how we should get together, and make sexy nubian whoopee for days???
And Level...you simply rock.

(in reply to Level)
Profile   Post #: 64
RE: Bill Cosby and Black Conservatism - 4/25/2008 2:30:14 PM   
XNakisisaX


Posts: 24
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline 		"Cos" is just another cog in the wheel with the same complaints and observances since 1865. But he should check himself before speaking out about anything.

(in reply to lronitulstahp)
Profile   Post #: 65
RE: Bill Cosby and Black Conservatism - 4/25/2008 2:37:20 PM   
lronitulstahp


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quote:

ORIGINAL: XNakisisaX

"Cos" is just another cog in the wheel with the same complaints and observances since 1865. But he should check himself before speaking out about anything.
Welcome to the boards...but honestly, if we all had to "check" ourselves before speaking out, the world would be silent.  i don't think perfection should be a pre-requisite for expressing one's self. 

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Profile   Post #: 66
RE: Bill Cosby and Black Conservatism - 4/25/2008 2:40:40 PM   
Level


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Joined: 3/3/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: SeeksOnlyOne

havent read any of the replies so forgive me if this is so far off how the thread has gone....


Hey there SOO; hell, the threads went all over the fucking place, don't worry


quote:

but for some reason, knowing if a whiteperson said there were problems that were specific or rampant in the black community, or imagining the outrage that would happen if a white judge did the same thing that arrington did, or if a white comedian said the things cosby said.........i cant get over the fact that it pisses me off.


I work in a court, and my Judge has chewed on asses of all colors, often when it's juveniles; I got to say, most of the families, no matter the color, appreciate her doing so. Do some get offended? Yes, but they're assholes, mostly.

quote:

i like to believe im not racist and judge people based on who they are.  but i get pissy theres a black miss america and a miss black america pagent, but a miss white america pagent would be protested.  an naacp, but no chance in hell whites could have the same.


Well, keep in mind, a lot of black organizations were began because black people weren't allowed to participate in white ones. I don't have a problem if any group wants to do their own thing, but it's kind of sad.

quote:

let the flames begin


Don't be sitting on the fence, dammit!!

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to SeeksOnlyOne)
Profile   Post #: 67
RE: Bill Cosby and Black Conservatism - 4/25/2008 2:43:33 PM   
Level


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Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp

In a way, i was responding to a few threads....


Understood.

quote:

And Level...you simply rock.



 It's true.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to lronitulstahp)
Profile   Post #: 68
RE: Bill Cosby and Black Conservatism - 4/25/2008 3:11:41 PM   
XNakisisaX


Posts: 24
Joined: 8/16/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp

quote:

ORIGINAL: XNakisisaX

"Cos" is just another cog in the wheel with the same complaints and observances since 1865. But he should check himself before speaking out about anything.
Welcome to the boards...but honestly, if we all had to "check" ourselves before speaking out, the world would be silent.  i don't think perfection should be a pre-requisite for expressing one's self. 


awww thank you lovely sister. perfection isn't a pre-requisite, but if you're going to go around touring and talking about people, can you at least make sure your alleged, drugging and molesting women, and having love children doesn't come up in recent events?

(in reply to lronitulstahp)
Profile   Post #: 69
RE: Bill Cosby and Black Conservatism - 4/25/2008 6:04:36 PM   
Griswold


Posts: 2739
Joined: 2/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp

Sometimes, when somone is describing something that uniquely happened to them...the description of said event is never quite vivid enough.  The person describing the event will simply give up and say, "You had to be there".  Quite often,  i feel that however liberal minded or well intentioned many good people are, when it comes to being Black, particularly in America..."you had to be there".     


While it's possible to put one's self in another's shoes, you're right, it's not the same as living in those shoes.


Indeed, and forgive me if I came across as bigoted (sp?)..I've not lived in those shoes...not because of my race...but rather because I chose not to live there (I've lived in the back of station wagons, worked farms, eaten in social camps...it taught me not to...and it taught me all too well to go someplace else in the end)...my intent was to cover the point made by Mr. Cosby, which was, regardless of the clip posted, his larger point (in his original speech, given well over 18 months ago) which was that the biggest problem was (in his speech he referred to African Americans...I didn't write the speech), apathy.

Which is always the largest issue when concerning failure.

Those that believe they can't, are destined to fulfill their dreams.

Those that believe they can, will fulfill everyone else's.

(And...their own).

< Message edited by Griswold -- 4/25/2008 6:06:00 PM >

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Profile   Post #: 70
RE: Bill Cosby and Black Conservatism - 4/25/2008 6:12:36 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Griswold

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp

Sometimes, when somone is describing something that uniquely happened to them...the description of said event is never quite vivid enough.  The person describing the event will simply give up and say, "You had to be there".  Quite often,  i feel that however liberal minded or well intentioned many good people are, when it comes to being Black, particularly in America..."you had to be there".     


While it's possible to put one's self in another's shoes, you're right, it's not the same as living in those shoes.


Indeed, and forgive me if I came across as bigoted (sp?)..I've not lived in those shoes...not because of my race...but rather because I chose not to live there (I've lived in the back of station wagons, worked farms, eaten in social camps...it taught me not to...and it taught me all too well to go someplace else in the end)...

(And...their own).


You really don't get it.

I'll buy Stewart Scott's (of ESPN) version of things...His whole take was you don't know unless you have personally lived it.

Poor peewee, had to live in a station wagon....So what?


_____________________________



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Profile   Post #: 71
RE: Bill Cosby and Black Conservatism - 4/25/2008 6:26:55 PM   
RealityLicks


Posts: 1615
Joined: 10/23/2007
Status: offline 		There are few parents who respect advice on child-rearing from those without children.  There are few women who accept advice on how best to be a woman from a man.  So why do some whites think that their advice on how black people should behave is so valuable?

The judge asked the whites to leave that courtroom for a reason. 

Oh yeah, all those quotes you've included where you've agreed with others' assertions - and on most of them, hedged your bets - are those what you call your opinion? I'm not being disingenuous, just asking.

Black conservatism is misguided because it is rooted in the past; outmoded concepts that might have worked when Booker T was still kicking but too limited, inflexible and lacking in nuance to resonate with young people seeking a place in an infinitely more complex 21st Century society.

But that's my opinion. 

Anyway, I'm calling it a day on this for reasons you will probably demonstrate.  Just trying to "answer a fool according to his folly" as the other Solomon said.


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Profile   Post #: 72
RE: Bill Cosby and Black Conservatism - 4/25/2008 6:34:22 PM   
Griswold


Posts: 2739
Joined: 2/12/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Griswold

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: lronitulstahp

Sometimes, when somone is describing something that uniquely happened to them...the description of said event is never quite vivid enough.  The person describing the event will simply give up and say, "You had to be there".  Quite often,  i feel that however liberal minded or well intentioned many good people are, when it comes to being Black, particularly in America..."you had to be there".     


While it's possible to put one's self in another's shoes, you're right, it's not the same as living in those shoes.


Indeed, and forgive me if I came across as bigoted (sp?)..I've not lived in those shoes...not because of my race...but rather because I chose not to live there (I've lived in the back of station wagons, worked farms, eaten in social camps...it taught me not to...and it taught me all too well to go someplace else in the end)...

(And...their own).


You really don't get it.

I'll buy Stewart Scott's (of ESPN) version of things...His whole take was you don't know unless you have personally lived it.



You can't win if you don't believe you can.

I'm perfectly okay with you believing you can't.

(By the way...it was a great station wagon).

(in reply to domiguy)
Profile   Post #: 73
RE: Bill Cosby and Black Conservatism - 4/25/2008 6:37:19 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

There are few parents who respect advice on child-rearing from those without children.  There are few women who accept advice on how best to be a woman from a man.  So why do some whites think that their advice on how black people should behave is so valuable?


Maybe because some don't just see it as black and white, but people. We're different, but we ain't all that fucking different.

quote:

The judge asked the whites to leave that courtroom for a reason. 


Yeah, but you don't know for sure what it was, any more than I do.

quote:

Oh yeah, all those quotes you've included where you've agreed with others' assertions - and on most of them, hedged your bets - are those what you call your opinion? I'm not being disingenuous, just asking.


You seem to have a near-miraclous ability to see what you want to see. I agreed, and at times disagreed. I hedged no bets, but admitted when I don't have all the answers, or that there is more than one.

quote:

Black conservatism is misguided because it is rooted in the past; outmoded concepts that might have worked when Booker T was still kicking but too limited, inflexible and lacking in nuance to resonate with young people seeking a place in an infinitely more complex 21st Century society.

But that's my opinion. 

Anyway, I'm calling it a day on this for reasons you will probably demonstrate.  Just trying to "answer a fool according to his folly" as the other Solomon said.


If demostrating that your arguments resemble swiss cheese is reason to leave, then by all means.

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to RealityLicks)
Profile   Post #: 74
RE: Bill Cosby and Black Conservatism - 4/25/2008 6:43:11 PM   
domiguy


Posts: 12952
Joined: 5/2/2006
Status: offline 		this is the only thing that I will add to the topic....A conservative friend of mine, runs a financial planning firm, simply thinks if you believe you can it will happen...Everything is equal..."Blacks should just tough it out."

We then asked if he received a resume from Jamal Washington if he would call him in for an interview....It was the end of the conversation...Or he might have said something cute like "touche."

Juss saying. I know first hand that things are different...I don't have the first idea what it takes to solve the problems of others...I need to concentrate on myself. I know that the schools that my friend's children on the Northside attend are much different than what is being offered on the Southside....Who cares? If the kids attending the Southside schools believe they will succeed that should be enough.

_____________________________



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RE: Bill Cosby and Black Conservatism - 4/25/2008 6:44:27 PM   
lronitulstahp


Posts: 5392
Joined: 10/17/2007
Status: offline 		RL, it's no secret that i think you are absolutely brilliant and dreamy, and that i want to do you...many things you say, i agree with spot on.  i'm not sure if discouraging a dialogue is a good idea.  We all have the right to comment, or question,and that is a good thing. 
i think if you and i just had at it, all this would be easier to deal with.  Methinks somebody needs a nice relaxing bj....

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Profile   Post #: 76
RE: Bill Cosby and Black Conservatism - 4/25/2008 6:56:26 PM   
FullCircle


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Level you should have done the news item about that bloke in china that can’t pay his medical bills so has been spending ten years taping up a gaping hole in his chest with tape.

There were pictures, too

I'm sure this is a great news item I just find Bill Cosby generally annoying.

I’m Cosbyist. Some of my best friends are Cosby’s but none I exchange bodily fluids with.


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∞ ﮒuקּƹɼ ƾɛϰưϫԼ Ƨωιϯϲћ.

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Profile   Post #: 77
RE: Bill Cosby and Black Conservatism - 4/25/2008 7:00:23 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		You know I'm going to Google that, don't you?

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

(in reply to FullCircle)
Profile   Post #: 78
RE: Bill Cosby and Black Conservatism - 4/25/2008 7:00:41 PM   
FullCircle


Posts: 5713
Joined: 11/24/2005
Status: offline 		http://www.metro.co.uk/weird/article.html?in_article_id=144355&in_page_id=2

I get all my news items from here it is quality.

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∞ ﮒuקּƹɼ ƾɛϰưϫԼ Ƨωιϯϲћ.

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Profile   Post #: 79
RE: Bill Cosby and Black Conservatism - 4/25/2008 7:16:01 PM   
Level


Posts: 25145
Joined: 3/3/2006
Status: offline 		Hmm. And here's one about a grumpy village wanting to move to Wales http://www.metro.co.uk/weird/article.html?in_article_id=144623&in_page_id=2

_____________________________

Fake the heat and scratch the itch
Skinned up knees and salty lips
Let go it's harder holding on
One more trip and I'll be gone

~~ Stone Temple Pilots

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Profile   Post #: 80
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