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What do I need? - 4/23/2008 1:18:27 AM

Prinsexx

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As a submissive what do I need?
Do I have defineable needs?
Do I have needs which are shaped by my Dominant?
Do I state what those needs are up front in contract types form?
Do I simply believe those are my needs?
Could I, or should I therefore have my beliefs in what I need changed by the Dominant whom I am with?
Likewise from a Dominants point of biew:
Do you satisfy or deny your sub's needs?
Do you expect or allow those needs to change?
Do you wish to change your sub's beliefs in what they need as a form of control? The biggest question: how are both sub and dominant needs met.....I know the one word answer (is communication) but I sincerely would be suppoerted by more detailed answers.

I am asking this because I am in transition at the moment and knowing how better to communicate what my bdsm needs are is also changing. I won't be the same person I feel even in a month's time as I feeI my needs are chaning so rapidly. I have been interested in other threads particularly those that have touched on kink that is not ok (ie needs that are not ok) and attitudes to controlling what a submissive/slave believes her needs to be.

I'm also weighing-up for myself how much and if my bdsm cravings are defineable as 'needs' as in hunger, thirst, shelter....and therefore to what extent the whole thing could just be put on hold for me for a while. I do feel I need the in-put here though and thank you in advance sincerely to those who support me and of course to those who also oppose me.....it really helps not to feel alone during change.

< Message edited by Prinsexx -- 4/23/2008 1:24:50 AM >

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RE: What do I need? - 4/23/2008 1:48:15 AM

RCdc

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I tend to define it more as desires, than need.
I desire to be submissive, it is within me. To do that I desire a dominant to transfere authority to. Without it, my submission exists, but cannot manifest itself with any tangible force.

Everyone has desires. Some simply exists already, some are defined and brought to fruition when dominated. When I was in the initial stages with Darcy, I stated my desire - submission to him.
I do not believe in limits. I do not place limits or stipulations(bar one) on my relationships ever. I have a do not do list, but those are not limits. They are what they say on the can. The only stipulation is - this is what I don't do and if this matches cool, if not - you are free to not accept and go. This happens to all my relationships.

So, I would never be compatable with a homophobic, a racist, a fundemental *insert religon here*, a female dominant, feminist, extreme right wing, polyamourous, vegan, asexual, animal hating, person who doesn't enjoy family life. Submitting to these would be foolish for my own well being, calling them limits would be a lie.

Changing only for the dominant? I don't believe that is healthy. You have to be comfortable and compatability is a big part of any relationship. See my list above. If someone wanted to change me beyond what I am then I would question why they are bothered in me in the first place. Darcy enhances what I am, not alters me.

the.dark.

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RE: What do I need? - 4/23/2008 2:09:25 AM

Prinsexx

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quote:

Darcy enhances what I am, not alters me.

This as a succinct answer, like a summary, this i understand and it came like a beautiful punctuation to what you said.
I as a bit fuzzy on your 'to call them limits would be a lie'.
Now I am out of a relationship what I am faced with are three D types who are holding up a mirror of possibilities within me and what Isee reflected here is very dark....I don't know if I like 'her' but I also wat to go there as there are unsatisfied desires. yes I'm happier with the word desires also rather than need. And thank you for that. Ialso didn't expect to be changing 9again0, so rapidly, at this age and at this stage in my life.

< Message edited by Prinsexx -- 4/23/2008 2:13:27 AM >

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RE: What do I need? - 4/23/2008 2:16:40 AM

eyesopened

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i can't answer those questions for you or for anyone else but i can answer what worked for me.

We tend to be so focused on needs and for me it worked out better to start with wants.
Example: i want a pair of shoes for every outfit. i can't really afford that many shoes. i need dress shoes for work, one brownish pair, one black pair, and a pair of sneakers for off-work hours, one pair of boots to wear on the bike. Now that i've pared down my needs from my wants i can better see the difference between the two. Now that i can see the difference i can also see what i am willing to compromise within my wants category. i can easily express myself regarding wants and needs. i know i will not be completely happy if i only had 4 pairs of shoes. i know that it is unreasonable to be unhappy because i don't have a different pair of shoes for every possible outfit. i now know i can be truly happy somewhere in the middle between my wants and my needs and i know that should my financial situation change i can always add to my shoe closet. i also know that my foundation shoes, the ones i really do need, should be of the best possible quality so that they will wear well for a long time.

Don't know if that helps at all....

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RE: What do I need? - 4/23/2008 2:24:02 AM

RCdc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx
I as a bit fuzzy on your 'to call them limits would be a lie'.

I'll try and explain.
In BDSM circles - the big 'in thing' is to say I have soft limits (things that can be pushed) and hard limits (don't push these). I find this lacking in full communication as limits gives the perception - albeit an unconscious one - of a line that can be crossed eventually.

Limits is defined as a boundary or the greatest possible degree. It is a restriction. It is a teasing and tantalising word that encourages a person to push just that little be more. Restrictions can be broken/cut etc - lines can be crossed. It encourages negociation.
Even the limit on your bank account can be breached and that is a hard limit!

So to me, to suggest that a something that you won't do - is a hard limit - doesn't exclude it. So if I was to claim that poly was a hard limit - I would be lying. It is far easier and far clearer communication to say - I am not poly and have no desire to be. If people stopped faffing around making words 'special' and just spoke clearly, there would be less misunderstanding.

Hope that made more sense Prinnie.xxx

the.dark.

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RE: What do I need? - 4/23/2008 2:36:30 AM

Prinsexx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: eyesopened

i can't answer those questions for you or for anyone else but i can answer what worked for me.

We tend to be so focused on needs and for me it worked out better to start with wants.
Example: i want a pair of shoes for every outfit. i can't really afford that many shoes. i need dress shoes for work, one brownish pair, one black pair, and a pair of sneakers for off-work hours, one pair of boots to wear on the bike. Now that i've pared down my needs from my wants i can better see the difference between the two. Now that i can see the difference i can also see what i am willing to compromise within my wants category. i can easily express myself regarding wants and needs. i know i will not be completely happy if i only had 4 pairs of shoes. i know that it is unreasonable to be unhappy because i don't have a different pair of shoes for every possible outfit. i now know i can be truly happy somewhere in the middle between my wants and my needs and i know that should my financial situation change i can always add to my shoe closet. i also know that my foundation shoes, the ones i really do need, should be of the best possible quality so that they will wear well for a long time.

Don't know if that helps at all....

Although it was a question in the first person singular and therefore about me I dodn't expect anyone to answer for me. I hope it didn't come across like that.
The soe analogy was great. I can see how your thinking works in separating out needs and wants.
Your thinking is SO very different to mine. It is systematic and logical. IF ONLY I could be like that.
But what it has highlighted for me, is that, yes I do confuse needs and wants. And that is why I do come across, inevitably, however much I try to hide it, I do come across as needy.
At the beginning of a relatinship it seems that two new Dominants I have been contacting got turned on by my 'neediness'....I'm sure in the long term it is a no no for most.
Thank you so much for showing me how systematic and logical mythinkin could be........should be.....

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Post #: 6

RE: What do I need? - 4/23/2008 2:42:55 AM

MasterFireMaam

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx

As a submissive what do I need?

Start with, "As a human, what do I need?" That'll answer lots of questions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx
Likewise from a Dominants point of biew:
Do you satisfy or deny your sub's needs?
Do you expect or allow those needs to change?
Do you wish to change your sub's beliefs in what they need as a form of control?
The biggest question: how are both sub and dominant needs met.....I know the one word answer (is communication) but I sincerely would be suppoerted by more detailed answers.

Since I view anne and I as equal humans, I do work to have her needs met.
Of course I expect these needs to change. Noone stays the same forever.
I don't see it as a form of control but more of a form of leadership, both emotional and spiritual.
How are partner's needs met in any relationship? It doesn't work any different here just 'cause we're Ds/Ms.

Master Fire

< Message edited by MasterFireMaam -- 4/23/2008 2:47:41 AM >

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Post #: 7

RE: What do I need? - 4/23/2008 2:45:30 AM

Prinsexx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx
I as a bit fuzzy on your 'to call them limits would be a lie'.

I'll try and explain.
In BDSM circles - the big 'in thing' is to say I have soft limits (things that can be pushed) and hard limits (don't push these). I find this lacking in full communication as limits gives the perception - albeit an unconscious one - of a line that can be crossed eventually.

Limits is defined as a boundary or the greatest possible degree. It is a restriction. It is a teasing and tantalising word that encourages a person to push just that little be more. Restrictions can be broken/cut etc - lines can be crossed. It encourages negociation.
Even the limit on your bank account can be breached and that is a hard limit!

So to me, to suggest that a something that you won't do - is a hard limit - doesn't exclude it. So if I was to claim that poly was a hard limit - I would be lying. It is far easier and far clearer communication to say - I am not poly and have no desire to be. If people stopped faffing around making words 'special' and just spoke clearly, there would be less misunderstanding.

Hope that made more sense Prinnie.xxx

the.dark.

Brilliant. That's very close to my thinking on limits. That's why I have said that I don't have limits. My limits are defined by my Master. because really in my experience, in the moment, once I have entered into a relationship of that nature, that's the type of submission I offer. So I have rarely myself used limits in the way in which it is generally accepted in bdsm culture.
But I am just finding myself to have been too selfless and not had my desires satisfied on the whole, not had my desires satisfied completely ever.
Look I would go so far as to say that I have never had my desires satisfied and thus I'm at this point, turning point really but it feels like turning an ocean liner ina strong Atlantic current that's going the wrong way.
I feel stupid realsing that the distinction between my needs and desires isn't clear cut. Expecting someone else to fulfil both and then quitting on them when they don't come up to scratch. Yeuk! also to that feeling of being needy.
Thanks so much for the input on limits.

< Message edited by Prinsexx -- 4/23/2008 2:47:30 AM >

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RE: What do I need? - 4/23/2008 2:45:42 AM

DMFParadox

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Ach, words. Damned beasties get in the way of things.

Sure you have defineable needs. Problem is, some of those needs need to remain undefined. You dig?

Probably not. Nobody else does, either. Because you're a torrent, not a list. A process, not an object.

Of course, things are processes too--only difference is that you move faster than they do, thus they look still. Maybe you need someone faster than you, eh?

Or not.

I'd say focus on the basics. A man that has his shit together; at your station in life, he'd need to be the king of his hill somewhere, or at least highly respected for his work. From that pool of men, sort out the one that can make the most out of you; can inspire or simply tell you to be more, and you succeed in so doing.

At that point, the tools he uses will, by default, be ones you love. And if he's missing a few, then you can introduce him to your favorite St. Andrew's cross or what have you.

D

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RE: What do I need? - 4/23/2008 2:58:34 AM

Prinsexx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DMFParadox

Sure you have defineable needs. Problem is, some of those needs need to remain undefined. You dig?

Yes I do dig. and I love the origins of that word....meaning do I understand by going deeper! Yes I do go deeper and deeper and often when a dream hits home I will write it down and let the manifest AND the latent meaning hit on me later in the day even if it hurts and knocks my ego around.

Probably not. Nobody else does, either. Because you're a torrent, not a list. A process, not an object.
Yes and then process comes along and I figure oh hell that meant I have such and such a need....like at this moment I am really fuckin insedure....but getting it like a process rather than a thing yes it does help because if I give it time, the insecurity becomes something else...something else altogether. And sometimes not, just like everyone else.

Of course, things are processes too--only difference is that you move faster than they do, thus they look still. Maybe you need someone faster than you, eh?

Or not.
Yes. way way ahead of my game.

I'd say focus on the basics. A man that has his shit together; at your station in life, he'd need to be the king of his hill somewhere, or at least highly respected for his work. From that pool of men, sort out the one that can make the most out of you; can inspire or simply tell you to be more, and you succeed in so doing.
Thank you for this. A dominant man? yes all my men have been my motivators, my inspiration and (embarassed feels like a confession) yes my raison d'etre. Soz, my Fr. is fkd.

At that point, the tools he uses will, by default, be ones you love. And if he's missing a few, then you can introduce him to your favorite St. Andrew's cross or what have you.

D
Well yes that kind of got me back to square one...that i need a man...........thanks for the digging lesson..........

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RE: What do I need? - 4/23/2008 3:15:45 AM

RCdc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prinsexx
Brilliant. That's very close to my thinking on limits. That's why I have said that I don't have limits. My limits are defined by my Master. because really in my experience, in the moment, once I have entered into a relationship of that nature, that's the type of submission I offer. So I have rarely myself used limits in the way in which it is generally accepted in bdsm culture.
But I am just finding myself to have been too selfless and not had my desires satisfied on the whole, not had my desires satisfied completely ever.
Look I would go so far as to say that I have never had my desires satisfied and thus I'm at this point, turning point really but it feels like turning an ocean liner ina strong Atlantic current that's going the wrong way.
I feel stupid realsing that the distinction between my needs and desires isn't clear cut. Expecting someone else to fulfil both and then quitting on them when they don't come up to scratch. Yeuk! also to that feeling of being needy.
Thanks so much for the input on limits.

I believe that if you rely only on another to satisfy your desires, then you will never have them sated.
I trust Darcy completely - and that means I believe he will do as he sees right to satisfy anything I may desire. But he isn't a mind reader. It is my responsibility to inform him when something isn't right with me, or if there is a desire I wish to beg fulfillment in. It is up to me to communicate. Remembering he has authority only of what he is aware of, is vital in any relationship - he cannot work with me without knowing.

the.dark.

< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 4/23/2008 3:18:00 AM >

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RE: What do I need? - 4/23/2008 3:33:24 AM

Prinsexx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

Start with, "As a human, what do I need?" That'll answer lots of questions.

I definitely distinguished bdsm needsm not from hman needs of course, but I definitely separated them from what are termsed human 'givens'....yuou know the basic requirements. I see bdsm needs much like emotional needs, as luxuries. Too much time on my hands today maybe? It;s just my running order goes in s different order sometimes. And i would rather have hands round my throat, get a goos smack than eat.
That's just how it is sometimes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam

Since I view anne and I as equal humans, I do work to have her needs met.

I got that. I also just forget how to do the compassion thing and see myself from the other's perspective. I'm had work. I either rate myself lower (hate that low-esteem time) or higher (hate feeling arrogant too.)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MasterFireMaam
I don't see it as a form of control but more of a form of leadership, both emotional and spiritual.
How are partner's needs met in any relationship? It doesn't work any different here just 'cause we're Ds/Ms.

Master Fire

But I think you did just express it's difference.....as above. considering your relationship as leadership that fulfils emotional and spiritual needs as well....that's kind of, well, amazing springs to mind.

< Message edited by Prinsexx -- 4/23/2008 3:34:41 AM >

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RE: What do I need? - 4/23/2008 3:58:54 AM

spongebat

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What do you need, yes and no work for me, yes i need to be spanked etc No i don,t do scat or whatever, No means no, not limit or maybe if you ask nicely or lets talk about it, why does it all get so elongated, is it No i don,t do scat but for you i would ????????
Yes you can spank me but lightly, would be clear enough. No you cannot spank me would also surfice, Well maybe, i don,t like it but for you?????????
Is that sacrifice for a sub/slave, for me No you may not spank me, no debate just no

As you say lovely Prinsexx it,s all about communication and not perception, just ask

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RE: What do I need? - 4/23/2008 4:23:56 AM

Prinsexx

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You make it sound so simple spongebat.
Welcome to the forums.

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Post #: 14

RE: What do I need? - 4/23/2008 4:33:44 AM

DesFIP

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Forgetting about the difference between need and want, because that can be difficult to decide in relationship terms, I just like to make two lists. One is stuff I refuse to do or put up with. I call this list deal breakers and on it is sadism, not being a strong and involved father, demanding I get rid of my pets and duct tape on skin.

The other list which I call must haves includes accepting my oldest with her difficulties, willingness to be involved with my family as I am with his, and bondage.

Obviously there are some others not listed, and then the things that I can compromise on. I can tolerate a little pain play but not much and nothing emotional. I can tolerate some mental restraints but not all the time. I can tolerate him missing some family gatherings but not the ones I really need him at.

However I am not a blank slate to be determined by the first dominant that crossed my path. I'm never going to be a vegan no matter how much the dom is. If he can't accept that, then we aren't going to be able to have a full relationship. Get together for play once in a while, sure but not day in day out living together.

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RE: What do I need? - 4/23/2008 5:51:33 AM

MladyHathor

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As I have written here or eluded to, I Myself have gone through, forced Myself not so much to transition who I am, for that has never really changed, but to break out of the cliches, the bantied about words we use and define what it is I am, what is it is I provide and what it is I "seek". Note I said seek not need--for I need nothin to make My life complete as it is now---I choose to add to it---

Now that said---

Could I, or should I therefore have my beliefs in what I need changed by the Dominant whom I am with? No one except a surgeon can change anything within another person---A Dominant can provide a venue, an environment of support for you to changem but the want to, the desire to do the work has to be a free will decision on your part--it has to be a willingess to adapt, let go, embrace or remove whatever it is----you change--your Dominant supports, inspires and provides encouragement and motivation for you to do so.

Likewise from a Dominants point of biew:

Do you satisfy or deny your sub's needs? That is a huge question and pretty generalized, it is My intent to insure that the 7 basic needs are met--beyond that they are desires, the largest being, I desire to be what I am and I seek a sun who desires the same--( the what I am is clearly framed btw)--it depends whether the desire fits within My design for the family unit and results in ultimate good---if the sub seeks to complete an education--yes--if the desire is to keep smoking or pissing away money---NO--but then that kind of sub would never come under My care as they would not mesh with what I seek.
Do you expect or allow those needs to change? The only thing constant is change---desires change as people grow--it is what is to be expected---again, if there is a need, then I have not done My job of providing the basic needs of man.
Do you wish to change your sub's beliefs in what they need as a form of control? I am not here to create a laboratory animal--I am here to mesh what I seek to give with what another has defined they desire and vice versa---if someone has a belief that they NEED something, a D may be able to get it put at bay for a time, but I believe sooner or later it will resurface--because "need" outside of the basics to survive-- is based on a preconceived fantasy notion of fulfillment and the ensuing level of emotion--I think the word need in the world today is way overused, IMHO.

-The biggest question: how are both sub and dominant needs met.....needs are met when there is heat, food, shelter---desires are met when there is an overall mutual sense of peace, calm, joy and accomplishment in the interaction between the two.

I know the one word answer (is communication) but I sincerely would be suppoerted by more detailed answers. Well, I am one who does not believe that it is all communication, for if there is not an intent and a commitment to be trustworthy and trustful--then communication becomes sound and nothing more.

Again, these are My beliefs only after much soul searching and many hours of self definition and acceptance.

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Post #: 16

RE: What do I need? - 4/23/2008 5:59:58 AM

Archer

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There are needs and there are wants, as I see things needs must be addressed for the health and well being of a person, while wants can be denied without damage. Certainly needs and wants change, at least I would hope that they would along with growth and change in the person. It's back to Maslov's hierarchy this ends up going. Even Maslov noted that so lng as there was security in the majority of any one set level one often would choose to forgo a lower level need to secure a need that was on the level of need at the higher level for a given time period. (Man will choose to go without food to make gains in self esteam.) But generally only when the need for food is secured and it is by choice that they are denying themselves.

As to meeting the needs, I do feel it is incumbant on a Dominant to meet (or rather povide for te meeting of) the real needs or to give guideance as to why any percieved needs they see as a desire. But even here, how when and where those needs get met, can be part of the exchange as well. Wants can be denied but sometimes that denial will proove the want to be a need over time, just as some percieved needs can be proven to be a want. Many times the goal set will make all the difference in want vs need. I can provide you with this that you desire from me but to do so I need this thing I only wanted before, in order to accomplish it. (works both sides of the / mark)

I dislike the way many BDSMers use te term limits as well. Choose rather to use the term as a basic English language denotation. Mental limits (this is where I cannot go without mental damage) Physical limits, This is the limit of my physical ability to endure or accomplish, (Can't breath water, can't stay awake for 5 days straight, Can't run a marathon)
Limits are the points where the mind or body simply cannot continue.

< Message edited by Archer -- 4/23/2008 6:03:02 AM >

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Post #: 17

RE: What do I need? - 4/23/2008 6:00:06 AM

Prinsexx

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Yes distinguishing needs and wants is an intellectual exercise for me. I know that my basic needs pre-occupy most of my time as sole provider for my family.As time passes I have figured that no-one else is really going to want to take over any of those things that I need to get handled for my family. (A new neighbour said oh yes no problems, if you want anything fixing carpenter-wise then I'll do it for yu. No probs.....and my thoughts went immediately to oh no thanks I can screw a hole (forgive the phrase) and hang a picture, tighten a bolt etc)
But reading through your suggestion of two lists: deal breakers and must haves is an idea I like. I have sold myself short on the must haves. But, as if it has occurred to me for the first time, amd yes I think it has, must have a relationship with someone with a heart, someone who has feelings....meeting my teens...well yes but I have long given up the idea of anyone else actually wants to be around the teens......

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(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 18

RE: What do I need? - 4/23/2008 6:06:23 AM

Prinsexx

Posts: 4584
Joined: 8/27/2007
Status: offline

Archer; I'm going to have to read it and read it again and process it. It's good stuff and very sorted especially the summation of Maslow. . Thank you. Gas boiler has broken and engineer about to come and fix it. There! Something I need to get fixed and cannot do myself.
Will get back to you.

_____________________________

Owner of asterion

Metawhore.... the sound of a metaphore when gagged
Free woman
Resident thread finisher
To my stalker:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN2lP_7J7GI&feature=fvwrel

(in reply to Archer)

Post #: 19

RE: What do I need? - 4/23/2008 6:54:36 AM

stella41b

Posts: 4258
Joined: 10/16/2007
From: SW London (UK)
Status: offline

Have you ever stayed awake all night and beaten the dawn? Do you know what it's like to spend a night without sleep and to somehow make it through the day? What is the longest time you have gone without food? Can you remember the hunger? And what did you eat? How many of you are reading this with cigarette between your fingers? What if you open the packet and the packet is empty? What then?

I have needs, I have wants, desires, cravings, dreams, fears, doubts, anxieties, ideas, kinks, and so on.

But I also have a choice. I have a brain. I have a tongue. I have strength, from choice.

Accept me as a fellow human, find me and know me as a person, and if you can find my mind, the general concept of who I am and why should be pretty clear. And so it follows I accept you as a fellow human, be there and show me who you are as a person, let me find your mind, finetune myself onto your wavelength, and I will get the general concept of you.

Do you get the drift?

To be able to share your needs with others you need trust and communication. Otherwise you risk being disappointed or unfulfilled.

Power is about knowledge. If you don't know yourself, how can you ever hope to submit? How can you give control to someone who doesn't know you and doesn't understand you? At least for one given day. Other days don't count, because yesterday has already gone, and tomorrow is pointless until it becomes today.

And please don't do the foolish thing of assuming that what I said yesterday will still apply next Thursday. Most likely it won't. At least not any more than any day on the first week of June 1983 and you didn't know me then. Don't forget to take the weather into account as well. Just in case.

Scratching your head? Confused? There is an alternative.

Let's start with you, the Dominant. Let's start with your needs. It's like a dance, you know the steps. No, that's not a good example. I dance like a cow on a trampoline with a violent wand up its rectum. The only thing I do worse than dancing is ice skating. Seriously. I've only been to a rink twice but both times have been rushed to hospital because they thought I kept having epileptic fits and seizures. I was just trying to figure skate.

Sorry, I'm getting carried away here (I won't say who by.. it's a secret).

Okay, you're the Dominant. I'm a border collie. We're in a park. You have a stick. You throw the stick and call out 'Fetch!' and I tear off after the stick and come back dropping the stick at your feet, tail wagging, panting, tongue hanging out like [Insert metaphor].

This is my concept of the D/s dynamic, a power exchange, the Dominant leading, assuming control and then ceding power to me, I fulfill the needs of the Dom and hand the power back. My needs as a submissive become fulfilled..

How? Through fulfilling the needs of my Dominant of course.

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(in reply to DesFIP)

Post #: 20

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