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RE: St. George's Day - 4/24/2008 12:42:13 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RealityLicks

NG, thanks for the reminder of how unimportant all those of us in London are to you.  What a mate! 



I was born and bred in a mining village in Durham, Reality, at a time when the mines and ship yards were closing and there was virtually zero alternative forms of employment. During the Miners' strike, miners had no income for approximately 18 months, and relied on the community to feed and clothe their families. Solidarity has always been a strong feature of Durham communities; the Durham Big Meeting was the largest annual political rally in Europe.

Add this hightened sense of solidarity to the North East's geographical location, and it makes for a people with a unique attitude and spirit - the North West is different again.

London? my sister lived in London for approximately 9 years, so I have spent some time down there. It's a completely different world to the North East.

If I had my way, I'd go all out for devolution.

P.S. I remember football fans of London clubs waving money around at Sunderland matches during the miners' strike; this is not forgotten in the North East.

P.P.S. London is nothing but trouble!

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RE: St. George's Day - 4/24/2008 12:44:01 AM   
heartcream


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From: Psychoalphadiscobetabioaquadoloop
Status: offline 		Wow pretty cool when a bunch of you folks with British accents (Can I say that?) get into it. I would pay money to be able to actually hear the accents.

I realize my ignorance is going to show now but okay.

The way I see it from my point of view, England is a nation because it is a country. It has a huge political identity. The major English politicians are household names to me, Winston Churchill, Margaret Thatcher, Tony Blair. I couldnt tell you one politician from like Scotland, Ireland or Wales.

I was not aware of St George, so thanks for that and all the history and stuff. There is a major subway stop which converges two separate subway lines in Toronto called St George. Now I know where that came from.



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RE: St. George's Day - 4/24/2008 12:53:20 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

I dunno NG -  I have irish and romany ancestory, and I always describe myself as english.  So meet another one. 
 


In terms of blood, I'm half Scottish. However, blood line is not the defining factor in obtaining citizenry, here - unlike, say, Germany.

For me, Englishness is defined by manner and attitude. The Scots do have a different culture and a different attitude - in large parts defined by a more extreme form of Protestantism - "British" would suggest we share a culture and I suppose we share aspects, but there are marked differences.

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RE: St. George's Day - 4/24/2008 1:05:02 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Unfortunately for the indigenous Scots, their DNA is just about the same as the indiginous English (with slight regional variations) so their nationhood and wish to be different is most definitely in the head.



Since when were nation and culture defined by blood? They're not; they're defined by values.

Spend some time in Scotland and you'll get a sense of a people with a distinct attitude. The stereotype afforded to the Scots is one of being tough, cantankerous and upstanding; I'd say there's some truth in this.

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: St. George's Day - 4/24/2008 2:23:29 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin

What is well done  .d.  is that someone chose to post about knowing the history of the troubles before making comments.

And yes, maybe occupation is not right, but why not just let it go, and look towards a better future,  I am sure the vast majority of inhabitants would agree, life is much easier not having to worry about bombs, bullets and sectarian killings.



How easy it is to 'let it go' and look forward so that it can happen again and again, just elsewhere, and not learn from it instead.
And yes, life would be much easier without it.  If only we would learn and not simply let it go.
 
the.dark.

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RE: St. George's Day - 4/24/2008 2:25:39 AM   
RCdc


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

For me, Englishness is defined by manner and attitude.


Well, that's most football supporters and city smartboys out the window then.

quote:

The Scots do have a different culture and a different attitude - in large parts defined by a more extreme form of Protestantism - "British" would suggest we share a culture and I suppose we share aspects, but there are marked differences.


I agree to an extent(Scots), although British may suggest culture to you, I see it simply saying I live on this Island with a bunch of strangers, most of whom I don't share anything with.
 
the.dark.

< Message edited by Darcyandthedark -- 4/24/2008 2:26:43 AM >

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RE: St. George's Day - 4/24/2008 3:01:49 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Darcyandthedark

quote:

ORIGINAL: Aneirin
then maybe let the inhabitants of that country make their own decision as to what country they want to be. That should be the qualifying criteria, you have to actually live in the country to decide upon it's future.


Shame no one ever thinks of that when occupying hey.
And if that is the case, then I was correct in the beginning using that reasoning - Ireland isn't part of the British Isles.

 
the.dark.

 

It's a word game. The British Isles had that name before any of the nations in those islands were formed. It was in fact what the Romans called the islands. When England and Scotland united, the name of the new state became The United Kingdom Of Great Britian. Not rthe united Kingdom of the Whole of Great Britain. Rather like the United States of America is not the united States of the Whole of America. The new regime didn't pull the name British out of the air or invent it, the British Isles were a common name used throughtout all the islands and didn't mean the new regime was in charge of all the islands. It was with the rise of nationalism and the invention of the Celtic culture (yes, Celtic culture as different from British culture was an invention) to exaggerate differences between peoples in the islands (and the Irish between themselves) that the term Britain became solely associated with the seat of government in London.

Much of the problems between Britain and Ireland were part of the Great European Chess game which is largely conveniently forgot in popular history because it often inconveniently contradicts national myth. Such as the Battle Of The Boyne where the majority of British soldiers were actually German and Dutch and Willem van Oranje was rather reluctant to use his English troops should they refuse to fight against what he called 'their fellow countrymen'. The Dutch Guards were Catholic so the idea the battle was between Catholics and Protestants is a nonsense. On the Irish side(which wasn't really the Irish side but the French) were six thousand French. The battle was actually to stop the advancement of  Loius XIV's ambition to conquer Europe and to supplant the Jacobite James as a puppet on the English throne. One could go through all the complex history of these islands in such a way to destroy all popular national myths that are full of lies designed for the ambitions of politicians who cared little for the people of these islands.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 4/24/2008 3:15:49 AM >

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RE: St. George's Day - 4/24/2008 3:19:10 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

Unfortunately for the indigenous Scots, their DNA is just about the same as the indiginous English (with slight regional variations) so their nationhood and wish to be different is most definitely in the head.



Since when were nation and culture defined by blood? They're not; they're defined by values.

Spend some time in Scotland and you'll get a sense of a people with a distinct attitude. The stereotype afforded to the Scots is one of being tough, cantankerous and upstanding; I'd say there's some truth in this.


My ex-wife has spent significant times in Scotland and Ireland with her work, as well as many years in England and she claims there is more cultural variation in Holland and Bellgium than in the British Isles. My own experience suggests she is right.

I know this will make the Irish shudder but my eldest daughter has just returned from a two week holiday to Ireland and she said its just like England.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 4/24/2008 3:25:40 AM >

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RE: St. George's Day - 4/24/2008 3:28:13 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

My ex-wife has spent significant times in Scotland and Ireland with her work, as well as many years in England and she claims there is more cultural variation in Holland and Bellgium than in the British Isles.



The Belgians can't spell their country's name, and the Dutch can? Is this the cultural variation of which you talk?

I believe you made the following claim on this thread: "the Scots are pathetic"; applying logic to the above suggests we're all pathetic, which is a novel stance to adopt.

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: St. George's Day - 4/24/2008 4:02:36 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

I believe you made the following claim on this thread: "the Scots are pathetic"; applying logic to the above suggests we're all pathetic, which is a novel stance to adopt.


Actually it was made tongue in cheek but my maternal grandmother who was an Orange Scot and ostracized for marrying a Green Irishman who was ostracized by his family in turn and both decided to settle in England to have some semblance of an ordinary life would call them pathetic.

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RE: St. George's Day - 4/24/2008 4:08:34 AM   
meatcleaver


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent

The Belgians can't spell their country's name, and the Dutch can? Is this the cultural variation of which you talk?

I believe you made the following claim on this thread: "the Scots are pathetic"; applying logic to the above suggests we're all pathetic, which is a novel stance to adopt.


The same nonsense goes on there as it goes on in Britain. The Flenish have to be different from the Wallonians which invariably means better but have an inferiority complex  where the Dutch are concerned so blame the Dutch for everything while justifying their own superiority of the Walloonians. The Dutch are imperveious to it because they are doing alright which pisses the Flemish off even more. All have their own national myths that are full of lies like the nations of Britian.

< Message edited by meatcleaver -- 4/24/2008 4:09:21 AM >

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RE: St. George's Day - 4/24/2008 4:22:20 AM   
NorthernGent


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quote:

ORIGINAL: meatcleaver

All have their own national myths that are full of lies like the nations of Britian.



As I understand it, the English invented god, chips, oxygen, fire, and women - 'impenetrable facts above and beyond the need for evidence, but were necessity to call, wikipedia is on hand to resolve the matter. 

'No lies in this corner of the world, my friend.

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Sooner or later, the man who wins is the man who thinks he can.

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RE: St. George's Day - 4/24/2008 4:26:04 AM   
RealityLicks


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quote:

ORIGINAL: NorthernGent
... I remember football fans of London clubs waving money around at Sunderland matches during the miners' strike; this is not forgotten in the North East.

P.P.S. London is nothing but trouble!


I believe that only total losers would flaunt wads of cash in the faces of a community on strike - the really sad thing is that they apparently got the idea from police officers on the picket lines.  But parts of a football crowd doesn't represent all Londoners - like many others, I donated to the miners strike fund frequently.  I even bought that horrible Flying Pickets single! 

My crowd came of age during that whole chapter of history: the Falklands, the miners' strike, privatisation, the NF.  You shouldn't believe that the "gentrification" of former working class London neighbourhoods into yuppie enclaves was a picnic or that record levels of unemployment didn't impact down here.

I'm not going to eulogise London, its a paradoxical place at the best of times but people here are not all that different ultimately.

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RE: St. George's Day - 4/24/2008 4:55:56 AM   
Politesub53


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Status: offline 		Many soccer fans donated to the miners, and still waved cash when watching their team " Up North"  I really dont see a massive difference between the working classes, swap whippet racing for greyhound racing. Wembley used to get 80,000 people watching the dogs.

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RE: St. George's Day - 4/24/2008 5:13:23 AM   
RealityLicks


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Status: offline 		Spent happy nights as a kid at White City Stadium, for the greyhounds, speedway and stock car racing.  Ever noticed how all London's dog tracks began with a "W"?  Wimbledon, Walthamstow, White City and Wembley.  WTF?

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