RE: Expectations of Male Submissives (Full Version)

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DominantJenny -> RE: Expectations of Male Submissives (4/25/2008 6:16:28 AM)

As an aside, the whole "don't call me mistress" thing is why I ended up with my handle; I wanted to make it very clear (especially because so many look at a female and automatically assume she's a sub) that I'm NOT a sub, but, on the other hand, I prefer NOT to be addressed as Mistress by all and sundry. I'm not a huge stickler about it; if someone contacts me and refers to me that way, I just think of it as "this is what they want me to be in time" and generally let it go. I suspect a lot who use Mistress in their handle did so for the same reasons I felt I had to include Dominant in mine.
It would be so much easier if there weren't so many people out there who didn't make assumptions they shouldn't make. Then I could have a less dopey sounding handle. Humph.

Feel free to just call me...
Jenny



thetammyjo -> RE: Expectations of Male Submissives (4/25/2008 7:55:45 AM)


quote:

ORIGINAL: MySweetSubmssive

A few years ago I had a light bulb moment around this. In D/s (and maybe with sex in general), women need to assert more, and men need to be more receptive -- or as I expressed it at the time, they need to shut up. I have to say, when I was on the s side of things, I got the most mileage with D's who were very perceptive -- hot, hot, hot! When a submissive man quiets down his needs for a bit and listens to the domme, she can access her own passion and desires, and he benefits! I found this to be very true when I was starting. Even now, when someone is aggressive with his needs it can be a killer for me. I end up turning those folks down.



I've seen a few books where this idea that women need to be more direct has been suggested and frankly I find it works much better than just letting someone guess what you want.

Men love to make women happy, at least all the men I've ever known. My father, my husband, hell, our male friends, will act silly both in word and deed and while doing so watch very carefully how the females in the group react. If she(they) smile or laugh, his grin is huge; no positive reaction, it's like he's been crushed.

I think men would love for women to tell them what they really want, need and think without all the gendered double talk we still train into girls. There are so many times I've heard women or girls say to the men/boys around them "well you just know what I like" and I want to shake that female and say "why would he know that? You never tell him anything directly."

I was trained like most of the women out there and I had to unlearn a lot of stuff but my vanilla, mundane and scene life all improved when I stopped being vague and suggestive and started being direct. If I ask a man what he wants to do, it's because I want to know not because I think that's what I should do as a woman. Most of the time I'm more likely to say "choose between X and K" because I'm inclined to both but want feedback.

Hope that made sense.



atursvcMaam -> RE: Expectations of Male Submissives (4/25/2008 8:42:09 AM)

   i have always tried to enter into a relationship with few expectations.  No matter how inclusive a list might be, it tends to limit the ability to discover new things about one's self, or one's partner.  i would tend to start with a caution that while, for a guy, i might be passably intelligent, might show occasional signs of nurturing and intuitiveness, and my thoughts, as a general rule, come from my big head, not my small head.  All that being said, i am not psychic, and i am terrible with reading subtle suggestions.  i am unlikely to ask why i was kicked under the table, but will generally not understand a dirty look.  After all, i am a guy.
     The rest, yes, i will try to learn what makes You smile, giggle, or coo approvingly.  Yes i will grin ear to ear when i find those things, and yes i will be crushed if i fail and especially if i make you frown or disapprove.  it would please me, and You as well i am fairly certain, if You are open about what You want to have happen.  my goal is to see You happy, so that i can grin ear to ear.
      as simple as that sounds, sometimes a list is easier, but what do i know?   



LotusSong -> RE: Expectations of Male Submissives (4/25/2008 9:35:43 AM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MladyHathor

Quick response and I will come back in a bit---female submissives speak more often through their head--as natural nurturers, they are able to address some basic hierarchy of needs, relationship and add to it. Male submissives often speak from their "head"--whatever to get in to pants--IMHO that isnt submissive that's a horndog and in all fairness it's the 80/20 rule. 20% of the good ones have to work twice as had to get noticed in the morass of the 80% hard legs.  Now on the other side, ( and here I stand at the flames) many professed female Dominants  I see are gold digging, lazy, self centered users, who think this life is a way never to have to lift a finger, work, or get off their butts to do anything.  So that behavior IMHO has driven the horndogs.
 
( I hope this does not get Me in trouble with many of the Ladies here, as I think we all know the kind I refer to)


Preach it, Sista.. Preach it!  (which means I agree whole heartedly with your post here.. I have marshmallows should any flaming start :)



Stephann -> RE: Expectations of Male Submissives (4/25/2008 12:22:53 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: TermsConditions

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lashra

In my mind it doesn't make him any less submissive, I want to hear his preferences to see if they jive with mine. If they don't then he isn't a match for me. Let's face it everyone expects to get something they need out of a relationship, people who claim that they aren't and that its all about the other persons needs are just kidding themselves.

What makes me think a person isnt submissive is when they say "My Mistress will wear black leather and dress up me up as a sissy maid and ream my ass repeatedly with her strapon until my legs give out and I'm a jello mess on the floor every night."  Now perhaps this does meet some Dominants expectations, but it doesn't meet mine. I will wear what I want, I will tell my sub what to wear and I will choose what we will do and if he has a problem with that he should have thought about it back in the negotiation stage of the relationship.

Of course subs should have expectations, because Dominants certainly do.

~Lashra



Lashra, you describe a nice middle ground of open communication junxtaposed against the demanding, controlling sub, or Mr. DoMe.
 
What about the other end of the spectrum? Consider a sub with no specific requirements or expressed wants.
 
I don't know what I want, but I want it to be what She wants. Better if it's something I don't want.
 
(But if it meets that criteria then it becomes something I want.  Therfore I would not want it anymore at which point it would again meet the required criteria and would then be desired, but then....and then my brain just knots up.)
 
Without expressed wants does one run the risk of getting stuck in "What do you wanna to do?, I dunno what do you wanna do?"


I won't speak for the ladies, but for myself, I can definitively state that this is the sort of submission I don't want.  I think it's often a sign of the same issues people who go overboard on roleplaying games or Renn Faires experience; so unhappy with who they are, that they are desperately seeking someone, somewhere, or some other time to be.  To enjoy a slave, she needs to be able to genuinely enjoy the things I like, for herself.  If we have little in common, it's unlikely much of a relationship will ensue.

Regards,

Stephan



MmeGigs -> RE: Expectations of Male Submissives (4/25/2008 1:26:45 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: darchChylde

i wonder if MistressMiracle actually insists on being called "Mistress" from introductory emails, or actually "MistressMiracle" as it is her username here on collarme.  On the other hand,  i wonder if it might make a negative impression if someone called you simply "Madame" or even simply "Gigs" in an introductory email.


I wouldn't delete an email just because someone addressed me as "Mistress" if I found the rest of the content engaging.  It is the email as a whole that makes the impression.  It's pretty telling, though, when a fellow addresses me as "Mistress" or "Goddess" or some such when I've made a point of saying I don't want that.  Most likely they didn't read my profile - that makes a pretty poor impression. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: darchChylde

i'd like to note that i do not actually have any idea about either of your specific preferences in regards to introductory emails or inquirys.  For example, what MistressMiracle may consider as merely the respect due to her; you might see as groveling.

edited to add: i'm ever thankful i have never needed to seek a dominant online, this type of social tightrope walking would mean that every submissive would be likely to step very wrong; especially when so few dominants specify the precise protocols they expect from those that might seek their attention.



It's important to keep in mind that dominant women are all very different, as are submissive men.  There is no way that any submissive man can broaden his appeal to the point where he is attractive to all dominant women.  He'll likely end up appealing to no one.  That's not something that's specific to submissive men or even to kink - that's true for pretty much everyone. 

I really don't think that this creates a social tightrope for malesubs to walk.  I do think that it makes it important that they focus on presenting themselves for who they are.  If malesub is looking for a fairly laid-back 49/51 kind of relationship, he's not likely to be a good match for a femdom who prefers a structured household and strict protocol.  If he's looking for a long term thing, he's not going to be a good match for a femdom who is looking for occasional service.  These fellows can learn what to put in an email to get the attention of these women, but it seems that it would be better to focus that effort on those with whom they're more likely to be a good match.



LadyHugs -> RE: Expectations of Male Submissives (4/25/2008 7:58:17 PM)

Dear Stephan, Ladies and Gentlemen;
 
I believe it boils down to what people as individual wants, needs as to feel that they are getting what they need in life as to maintain that role.
 
However, if people find a menu that is hard to fit into, it will be a very hard fit.  So, there should be no upset if there is so many constraints as to make it a miserable affair to begin with.
 
Everybody has their tastes, wants, needs -- its just the matter of matching. 
 
What men who claim their submissive side, need to understand -- when women start getting restrictions and list of will do and won't do; although fair and honest--but, right off the bat; it sounds (in my opinion) more of a Dominant male demanding this or that.  It takes patience for a man to submit their restrictions, lists, will do/won't do things.  Getting to know the lady first will be a huge help but, all too often--for me, personally -- I get men who identify themselves as a submissive but, they are too often a Dominant guised in a submissive male profile and or a Switch.  I don't 'Switch' unless I am holding the switch and administering it on someone's beehind.
 
It is very easy, as a female Dominant to become jaded by approaches, especially in a text format without the advantage of voice and or body language.  The tone and delivery often changes the word for word and can mean different things.
 
Just some thoughts.
 
Respectfully submitted for consideration,
Lady Hugs



AcademyForSlaves -> RE: Expectations of Male Submissives (4/26/2008 11:11:35 PM)

Hi.

That's a good question.

Like in any relationship search, the longer and more detailed your list of expectations is, the less women you will find. your limiting her and yourself. And for a sub to do this it makes him look demanding and selfish.

When slaves apply to me and the other mistresses I know we all agree that we prefer the applications from slaves that list what they have to offer us rather than asking things of us.

ie-List a short bio of yourself and list all your great qualities that you think might be useful to her. And then you can add a short sentence about what your hoping to find.



ElanSubdued -> RE: Expectations of Male Submissives (4/27/2008 12:00:39 PM)

Stephan,

quote:

So there was another thread here where a male submissive was clear about stating he wanted very specific things, and was told repeatedly that it'd probably be a long time before he'd have them met, because it wasn't supposed to be about what he wanted.

(snip)

Obviously, there's greater competition amongst male submissives for female dominants; yet how does stating preferences for a certain kind of situation make a male any less submissive, for stating those preferences?


I snipped the middle for brevity, however, my intent is to address your entire OP.

Hmmm.  Let's deal with the last paragraph first.  I disagree with the notion that there is greater competition between male submissives for female dominants, or rather, to put this another way, that female dominants have their pick of the litter.  (In this case, by "litter" I mean pick of the pups.  Actually, if you use the *other* definition of the word litter, this may actually be true!)  For starters, both partner choose one another.  It's not the case that a Domina choose solely on her own, without consent from her partner or partners.  More to the point though is that finding quality, compatible, kinky partners isn't easy.  I know quite a few Dominas who are single and this is because they cannot find a compatible submissive.  Of course, if they want to go on a date with just any wanker, well, sure, they can do this any time, but so (too) can vanilla women.  From a male submissive's perspective, I can tell you that Dominas who I would consider having a long-term, romantic relationship with are not easy to find.  They are not plentiful.  Thus, for those looking for such a relationship, it's not a supply and demand issue of understocked Dominas and overstocked submissives.  So there you go.  One myth debunked already. :-)

Regarding stating preferences making one any more or less submissive, I don't believe this has anything to do with how submissive a person is.  Preferences are preferences and all people have them.  This said, I do believe that one's approach and timing in stating their tastes can radically effect how this is received.  Many *people* (not just submissives) make the mistake of advertising with a big laundry list of "I want A, B, C, D, E, F, G, etc.).  Just in itself, wading through such a list is generally a turn-off, regardless of the content.  And, if the content is entirely self-focused on "I want", this feels even more like the author has many expectations, which is again a turn-off.  Certainly, if there are things that are very important (for example, you're looking for a partner who wishes to bare children), these are probably good things to state, but I do think it's better to keep this kind of thing to a minimum, especially in an introduction (which is essentially what a dating profile is).

Moving up to your first paragraph now... (*smiles*  I'm doing this from bottom to top)  I don't see anything wrong with stating what you want and what you're looking for.  But, I'll add, from my own experience and feelings:  the more specific someone is in their dating criteria, the fewer and fewer people there are that will meet (or want) that criteria.  Thus, I think it's important to be honest and to search for your heart's desires, but also courteous and flexible.  As in much of the rest of life, the easier and more endearing you are to get along with, the more opportunities arise.

Thanks for this interesting post Stephan.  It caused me to think a bit and that's always a good thing. :-)

Elan.



deviousmiss -> RE: Expectations of Male Submissives (4/27/2008 12:57:41 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: MladyHathor

Quick response and I will come back in a bit---female submissives speak more often through their head--as natural nurturers, they are able to address some basic hierarchy of needs, relationship and add to it. Male submissives often speak from their "head"--whatever to get in to pants--IMHO that isnt submissive that's a horndog and in all fairness it's the 80/20 rule. 20% of the good ones have to work twice as had to get noticed in the morass of the 80% hard legs.  Now on the other side, ( and here I stand at the flames) many professed female Dominants  I see are gold digging, lazy, self centered users, who think this life is a way never to have to lift a finger, work, or get off their butts to do anything.  So that behavior IMHO has driven the horndogs.
 
( I hope this does not get Me in trouble with many of the Ladies here, as I think we all know the kind I refer to)


I think that your 80/20 rule applies with the self-serving "dommes" as well.



hands0n0knees -> RE: Expectations of Male Submissives (4/27/2008 1:43:58 PM)

There is a common bad faith at work here.  That is, some of you seem to believe that the dom/sub reltionship is divided in a nice, clean binary opposition based upon the popular definitions of 'submissive' and 'dominant.'  If you are 'a dominant' you are in a role that demands certain things (the one holding the whip, wearing the strap-on, etc.) and if you are 'a submissive' the situation is the same (the one in handcuffs, and so on).  Both of you are submitting to the desires of the other person; the only situation where that is not true is rape.  A rape victim is a genuinely submissive role; whereas willingly joining the BDSM community with the stated aim of being pleasured aesthetically by a woman calling herself 'dominant' involves no loss of agency.  It's very rarely about being totally owned by someone, and even when it is that is still a personal desire that one has sought cooperation in satisfying.  There is always a dynamic of demand and consent set at equilibruim in functioning dom/sub relationships: it seems to me that some dommes here are delluding themselves with regard to that.  Your dominance exists only in the name given to the part you play in the acts performed in a bedroom: but you only got to that situation by satisfying someone's actively expressed desires, whether he spoke loudly about them or not.

Of course, that only applies to those complaining about male subs having demands at all.   For the majority, who seem only to be irritated by a lack of proper civility and romance, I can only offer my sympathy.



Politesub53 -> RE: Expectations of Male Submissives (4/27/2008 2:38:24 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hands0n0knees

Your dominance exists only in the name given to the part you play in the acts performed in a bedroom:



Your whole posts assumes everything revolves around what happens in the bedroom. If you had read the other posts, you would see this is not the case. There is a time and place to ask about wants and needs. i dont suppose anyone starting a vanilla relationship would state " i want oral sex daily " on a first date.

The OP is about how a submissive guy asks for certains acts to take place. i see the time for that to be after you have gotten to know someone, or if asked.  It is easy to ask for a specific act right from the off, this though would be quite off putting for many Domina`s, just the same as any woman.

Reading a profile thoroughly before sending a message would be a start. Then if someone sees a profile stating " male submissive wanted for caning " then fine. Replying to that doesnt upset anyone, as the Dominant is open about His/Her wishes.



hands0n0knees -> RE: Expectations of Male Submissives (4/27/2008 3:01:53 PM)

As I said,  I don't object to female dominants complaining about the lack of tact and civility shown by men.  It is impolite to begin a relationship that is supposed to be consensual and affectionate with a list of demands.

Nevertheless, those demands exist on both sides -- whether articulated or not -- and being someone's domme is a role that satisfies those demands.  And that's outside the bedroom, too.  I'm not reducing a relationship to just sex acts; that mention of bedroom was a perhaps misplaced metonym.



khem -> RE: Expectations of Male Submissives (4/27/2008 4:20:56 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: hands0n0knees

metonym.



Vocabularygasm... [:D]



hands0n0knees -> RE: Expectations of Male Submissives (4/27/2008 4:54:23 PM)

quote:

ORIGINAL: khem

quote:

ORIGINAL: hands0n0knees

metonym.



Vocabularygasm... [:D]



A loquatious and periphrastic style does for me the opposite of what a corset does for a generously proportioned lady, hides a lack of content.



TNstepsout -> RE: Expectations of Male Submissives (4/27/2008 8:49:43 PM)

I think that it appears that there is a double standard out there, but I really think it's due to the overwhelmingly larger number of men to women on these sites and the fact that the "wanker" types on both sides of the slash cause problems for women. Female subs have to deal with "SuperDom" who doesn't have a clue what being a Dom is really about, and Femdoms have to deal with "DoMe" subs that just want someone to hold the whip and create their fantasies. Either way, it's a male that wants a female to fulfil his fantasies. Often their demands and desires are not realistic at all, so in defense women attempt to counter these types with upfront lists of demands/limts. At least I think that's what's going on. 

Men also tend to be very impatient and often rush through the process of trust and relationship building. So I think a lot of female subs feel the need to be very strong about their boundaries and be very protective of themselves at least until they start to feel safety and trust. It's the same from the other side when a male sub is impatient. Sometimes they want too much too fast and then can't handle it. So the FemDom has to be the one to set the pace, which requires obedience and genuine submission.



cloudboy -> RE: Expectations of Male Submissives (4/27/2008 9:13:01 PM)

quote:

mundane and scene life all improved when I stopped being vague and suggestive and started being direct.


One of the good things about you is that you exhibit great introspection about what works and doesn't work in relationships.

To address the OP's question: Women object to a lack of tact more than they do to a sub's stated preferences. In general I would say women observe more tact than men when it comes to issues of sex and relationships. Hence they are often turned off and shocked by we tactless men who don't value tact highly.

As for the whole list of preferences:

Sometimes when a femdom doesn't like a sub's orientation --- they attribute the misfit or unsuitability of the malesub --- as "something's wrong with him." (He's selfish, he's fetish driven, etc....) Hence they will be personally rejecting as opposed to "we don't fit one another."

Also, some FEMDOMs subscribe to the "its all about me" philosophy --- and needless to say they can pounce on the wayward malesub who wishes to have his own needs met. The operational thinking here is that the femdom's needs are the malesub needs. Hence a malesub with his own (separate) needs is really nothing more than an impudent, pushy, inconsiderate asshole; otherwise known as the "do-me" sub.

So for some women, THE LIST is the issue, but for others the issue is in the delivery.




BreakHim4Me -> RE: Expectations of Male Submissives (4/28/2008 10:32:06 AM)

Beautifully said.  Your comments seem to be the type of thing that is missing.....the understanding that EVERYONE is seeking something.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Lashra

In my mind it doesn't make him any less submissive, I want to hear his preferences to see if they jive with mine. If they don't then he isn't a match for me. Let's face it everyone expects to get something they need out of a relationship, people who claim that they aren't and that its all about the other persons needs are just kidding themselves.

What makes me think a person isnt submissive is when they say "My Mistress will wear black leather and dress up me up as a sissy maid and ream my ass repeatedly with her strapon until my legs give out and I'm a jello mess on the floor every night."  Now perhaps this does meet some Dominants expectations, but it doesn't meet mine. I will wear what I want, I will tell my sub what to wear and I will choose what we will do and if he has a problem with that he should have thought about it back in the negotiation stage of the relationship.

Of course subs should have expectations, because Dominants certainly do.

~Lashra




DiurnalVampire -> RE: Expectations of Male Submissives (4/28/2008 10:45:29 AM)

{FR}
I think the difference between the things a female submissive usually ask for and the ones male submissives are typically asking for are reality.
I see nothing wrong with a male sub wanting to only be owned by a Domme who has a degree. Or a Domme wanting a boy or girl who has one, or is working toward one. It is one of my requirements.
I see nothing wrong with wanitng the ability to work outside the home, or being with someone who has a steady enough job with a good enough salary for you not to work outside, especially if children will be factoring into the equation.

I DO see problems with spelling out how things are to be done to you and for you, when you are the submissive. On either side of the gender coin, being told not just what you might like but exactly how you want it done is the turn off. I want to know what my boys or girls enjoy, desire, and like. I do not want to be plugged into the fantasy they have already constructed to play a role for me that has nothing to do with WHO I am. Something like that where the dominant is interchangable, and the interaction isnt personal, turns me off.

DV



talltxsub -> RE: Expectations of Male Submissives (4/28/2008 1:07:24 PM)

That is very true.  Even worse is the whining that often accompanies the demands, as though she is there purely for entertainment value.  It sure sounds like that's where the pro domme fits in, though I can't really see how that is satisfying for anyone, but then I guess it's the same reasons guys pay for other things (and to pre-empt potential flaming, no, I am not saying they are the same thing).



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