RE: Am I ruined? In serious need of advice.

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Real_Trouble -> RE: Am I ruined? In serious need of advice. (4/25/2008 10:49:49 PM)
Popeye, You bring up a lot of anecdotal points, and I don't dispute that individually, you can find cases of all kinds of strange behavior and foolishness. But I have anecdotes about all kinds of things; I know Harvard and Yale grads who are total morons, and someone who doesn't have a college degree that is actually quite bright where I work. However, on average, the college grads are smarter than the non-college grads, and the smartest of the college grads (especially those with graduate degrees in hard disciplines, medical degress, law degrees, or MBAs) consistently blow the others out of the water in terms of both capability and salary. But again, are you making the case that someone is better off without a college degree than with one? That their employment prospects and likely income are going to be greater without the college degree? I'm not saying that anyone is absolutely successful or not with it, but that without it, you are on average worse than you are with it. Do you disagree with that?

popeye1250 -> RE: Am I ruined? In serious need of advice. (4/26/2008 12:32:03 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real_Trouble Popeye, You bring up a lot of anecdotal points, and I don't dispute that individually, you can find cases of all kinds of strange behavior and foolishness. But I have anecdotes about all kinds of things; I know Harvard and Yale grads who are total morons, and someone who doesn't have a college degree that is actually quite bright where I work. However, on average, the college grads are smarter than the non-college grads, and the smartest of the college grads (especially those with graduate degrees in hard disciplines, medical degress, law degrees, or MBAs) consistently blow the others out of the water in terms of both capability and salary. But again, are you making the case that someone is better off without a college degree than with one? That their employment prospects and likely income are going to be greater without the college degree? I'm not saying that anyone is absolutely successful or not with it, but that without it, you are on average worse than you are with it. Do you disagree with that? RT, yes, I'd agree with that to a certain extent but with the caveat that it really does matter what type of degree you take. I'm retired. What if I decided to come out of retirement with a 25 year old degree in Bus. Admin, who'd be interested in hiring me? And that's another thing, what relevance does a 25 or 30 year old degree have in any economy? Even MD's and Engineers are always updating their knowledge. And we used to have "Liberal Arts" degrees decades ago but what good are they? Talk about a 4 year nap! If I owned a business and I had two job seekers, one a 22 year old just out of college and a 40 something with 15 years experience who do you think I'm going to pick? So yeah, you could have a "degree" in French and drink French wine and get drunk and talk French out loud, but would that make you "better off" because you had a degree in French? I don't know what business you're in but it would seem fool hardy to hire people just because they had some type of degree over someone with experience. Experience wins out everytime. I mean would you hire me with a 25 year old degree and no experience just because I have a "degree" over someone who had experience? Probably not a good decision. (lol) You'd get more bang for your buck hiring the experienced person over me with my degree! The thing is this economy will run just fine on 20-25% of the populace having a college education. What we're seeing now in somewhat in excess of 50% of the populace with "degrees." You can get degrees online now from many colleges. You can buy degrees! Like I said, colleges have become "degree factories." It's the law of supply and demand. Just look at the legal profession, there's so many lawyers these days they're stepping on each other's toes. People think that all lawyers make $200k per year, some do but many more make $40-$60k. We have to understand that the old rules no longer apply in this global economy. Why should I hire you at $80k and benefits when I can get an H1b visa hire from India or China for $40k and no benefits? And they'll work 80 hours a week for the priviledge. Until we get back control of Our Govt and get out of these "free trade" deals like Nafta things are going to continue to spiral downward for those with degrees and those without degrees in this "global economy." We have a lot of people with degrees working in shitty jobs for shitty pay. Every time we lay off 100,000 blue collar workers 30,000 white collar workers go with them. So, I really don't know if someone is better off (with) a degree in this changing economy like they were 30 years ago. With the above exceptions of course. I can honestly say that my degree didn't give me any advantages. A guy I worked with at the insurance co had a degree in history. One time I asked him what the Magna Carta was all about. His reply; "How the hell would I know, I played football!" I wanted to go to Nursing school but the V.A. wouldn't let me due to the possibility of further injury to my back and hips so I went to B school instead and really didn't care for it.

Emperor1956 -> RE: Am I ruined? In serious need of advice. (4/26/2008 12:40:56 AM)
FR: Oh, here we go again...a thread about something, anything and popeye has to pop in with his usual drivel about how worthless a college degree is. What is this, the 1100th post by him to that effect? Some college must have really dissed him, or maybe a "college boy" stole his girl once. It is BORING. And hey, a graduate degree might not be all it is cracked up to be, but at least those of us who have one (or more) can spell "guarantee". Popeye, give it a rest. E.

popeye1250 -> RE: Am I ruined? In serious need of advice. (4/26/2008 12:47:40 AM)
Emperor, if you don't care to read my opinions simply skip along to the next post. And where did I say that, "all college degrees are worthless?" And that's not bad, I only made one spelling mistake at this early hour. Why don't you go back and see if you can find anymore punctuation errors or spelling mistakes in my posts and report back to us what you found. (I must have hit a nerve somewhere with Emperor.) And one thing that your advanced degrees didn't teach you, manners.

NorthernGent -> RE: Am I ruined? In serious need of advice. (4/26/2008 3:55:43 AM)
Asking questions is normal....assuming, of course, it was done with tact. quote: ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl Then they decided to get a little revenge by giving me a bad evaluation. Revenge for what? Requesting they change your hours pattern and asking a few questions? 'Doesn't make sense to me. quote: ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl What would you do in this situation? If there's no more to this story, I'd arrange to have a chat with your boss and ask him/her to clarify exactly why you have been given a less than satisfactory evaluation. Ask for examples of the behaviour cited; ask for it in writing. Assuming the examples are vague and there are no witnesses, it boils down to your word against your boss', or perception even: I would challenge it with your boss' superiors. It would be useful were you to have the offer of weekday hours in writing; I would use this as a means of demonstrating your boss' inclination toward being less than honourable. This assumes the OP is the full story.

NorthernGent -> RE: Am I ruined? In serious need of advice. (4/26/2008 3:57:22 AM)
A degree is another string to your bow, Popeye, and, by and large, the more strings you have to your bow = the further you go. There'll always be exceptions to the rule.

lusciouslips19 -> RE: Am I ruined? In serious need of advice. (4/26/2008 4:25:10 AM)
Unless you are in an Ivy league schoo, no one will care either way about your grades or the school you went to. You could go to a local inner city college if you wanted. In the grand scheme of things when most employers look at your resume all they will care about is if you got a degree, not what school or what your grades were.

eyesopened -> RE: Am I ruined? In serious need of advice. (4/26/2008 4:28:29 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: defiantbadgirl I've been informally denied acceptance into my chosen college major because of a negative evaluation on EBE (experience based education) credit. I was given the negative report for 2 reasons. 1. I asked alot of questions. 2. I refused to allow them to take advantage of me. i seriously doubt in the report they listed "She asked a lot of questions and she refused to let us take advantage of her" as their negative feedback. Sometimes an employer gives negative feedback because they have valid reasons for it. In fact, most employers avoid giving negative feedback for fear of lawsuits. What would i do in this situation? i would take a close inventory of how and why i think i am constantly a victim and why i tend to think everyone else is fucking up my life. i would start taking responsibility for my actions and stop expecting everyone else to bend to my will, my needs, and my expectations. i would learn a hard lesson from this experience and i would see what i could do to make up for it. Can you do the EBE with a different company? Can you get the credit in a different manner, like taking a class? i know it sets you back but i should think this would be similar to failing a course and you just have to take it again. The negative report will still be in the transcripts, like a failing grade, but at least the positive report or a passing grade makes up for it.

wandersalone -> RE: Am I ruined? In serious need of advice. (4/26/2008 7:45:04 AM)
fast reply Ask family/friends for honest and constructive feedback about your communications skills, ability to work as part of a team and general demeanour. I know how surprised I was years ago when a friend finally took me aside and expalined that my attitude was a major turn off to people. I hadn't thought about this before and whilst initially I was hurt I soon got over that and have been eternally grateful to her ever since. Was it simply your word vs the supervisor or did the college also speak to some of your lecturers? Ask to do another EBE and this time think about how willing you are to experience one semster of discomfort eg. working weekends etc for the long term goal of going to college and completing your degree. It sounds like you have had an excellent study record, don't let this one hiccup screw up your plans. Regroup and start again. :) ps. Popeye I won't yet again try and convince you that many of the so-called worthless (in your opinion) degrees enable people to work in exciting, and wonderful careers...hell some of my jobs have even been well-paid! Please could you ask all of the people you see every day working in McDonalds and Starbucks with Psychology degrees to apply to come to Australia - demand outstrips supply here.

batshalom -> RE: Am I ruined? In serious need of advice. (4/26/2008 10:28:32 AM)
Popeye, you know I adore you (and am envious that you live at the beach) but you are using a "person who statistic" which serves as an exception to some statistical rule as a means to try to discredit that rule. It's kind of like saying "dietary fat can't be bad for you - my uncle at four pound sof bacon a day, wrapped around doughnuts, and he lived to be 95 years old." Sure some non-degreed people make more money than degreed people, but it's the exception rather than the rule. Heck, in my previous self-employment job I made untold amounts more money than I would have if I'd used my first degree. When I got my first degree, though, I was a piss-poor student and totally uninterested in my major. I did the bare minimum to get by and then turned my back on that field. What an idiot to have gotten that degree in the first place (the subject wasn't a bad one but I simply wasn't interested in it). Now that I am back at school fulltime, I have to make tons of monetary sacrifices (fortunately I'm a good saver and have some put back) but I'm doing something I enjoy. I won't make as much money as I made previously, due to the nature of the work and working for a university or private institution vs. working for myself, but I will still make more money than if I only graduated high school. That said, I don't think a college degree makes anyone better or worse than anyone else. People is people, ya know? I sure don't use it as a yardstick - we aren't all interested in the same things, thank goodness. And thank goodness we aren't all alike. I bore easily.

popeye1250 -> RE: Am I ruined? In serious need of advice. (4/26/2008 11:26:43 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: batshalom Popeye, you know I adore you (and am envious that you live at the beach) but you are using a "person who statistic" which serves as an exception to some statistical rule as a means to try to discredit that rule. It's kind of like saying "dietary fat can't be bad for you - my uncle at four pound sof bacon a day, wrapped around doughnuts, and he lived to be 95 years old." Sure some non-degreed people make more money than degreed people, but it's the exception rather than the rule. Heck, in my previous self-employment job I made untold amounts more money than I would have if I'd used my first degree. When I got my first degree, though, I was a piss-poor student and totally uninterested in my major. I did the bare minimum to get by and then turned my back on that field. What an idiot to have gotten that degree in the first place (the subject wasn't a bad one but I simply wasn't interested in it). Now that I am back at school fulltime, I have to make tons of monetary sacrifices (fortunately I'm a good saver and have some put back) but I'm doing something I enjoy. I won't make as much money as I made previously, due to the nature of the work and working for a university or private institution vs. working for myself, but I will still make more money than if I only graduated high school. That said, I don't think a college degree makes anyone better or worse than anyone else. People is people, ya know? I sure don't use it as a yardstick - we aren't all interested in the same things, thank goodness. And thank goodness we aren't all alike. I bore easily. Batshalom, I was the same way, B school wasn't my first choice. I'm just saying that all the "old rules" are changing in this "global economy." I'm glad I'm not working in today's economy. Also people think that this race to the bottom in this "global economy" is "inevitable", it's not, all it takes is one stroke of the legislative pen and we're out of it. We just have to see how much people can take before we take control over our govt. and get big business and lobbyists out of it. We are supposed to be a govt of the people, not of the corporations. We need to start actually making things in this country again. As Mark Twain said, "we can't all make a living by taking in each other's laundry."

Real_Trouble -> RE: Am I ruined? In serious need of advice. (4/26/2008 11:55:16 AM)
Popeye, I pretty much disagree with everything you have to say. I've found that in our economy, there is a very large premium put on having certain kinds of skill and knowledge. Having a college degree (or in my case, a graduate degree, and I'm about to start on another) is an excellent indicator of talent. It's not absolute, of course, but there are many places you cannot even get an interview without having a college or graduate degree. How many people get in the front door at Google or Apple without a college degree (as something other than cleaning staff)? Goldman Sachs or Morgan Stanley? McKinsey or Bain? I believe my case stands on its own merits.

popeye1250 -> RE: Am I ruined? In serious need of advice. (4/26/2008 1:12:07 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Real_Trouble Popeye, I pretty much disagree with everything you have to say. I've found that in our economy, there is a very large premium put on having certain kinds of skill and knowledge. Having a college degree (or in my case, a graduate degree, and I'm about to start on another) is an excellent indicator of talent. It's not absolute, of course, but there are many places you cannot even get an interview without having a college or graduate degree. How many people get in the front door at Google or Apple without a college degree (as something other than cleaning staff)? Goldman Sachs or Morgan Stanley? McKinsey or Bain? I believe my case stands on its own merits. Well, if you're in Sales and you're good at it you can get in any door! You could take a PhD. and if they can't sell they just aren't going to last at it. As for stockbrokers they only need to be liscensed, they're salespeople too. No "degree" required. And the big brokerages are always looking to steal the top producers away from the competition. If you're producing $10m in commissions a year trust me, Merrill Lynch or Paine Webber or Morgan Stanley would love to sit down and have a "chat" with you, it doesn't matter if you are a high school dropout. Sales are the knife edge of companies. They need people who can produce. And I can tell you from personal experience that a degree doesn't mean squat in those companies. One of the first things they tell you is; "forget whatever you learned in college, we're going to teach you our way." Think about it, who'd you rather have on your sales team, a 25 year old with a degree and no experience or a 35 year old with a lot of experience and no degree who's a multi-million dollar producer? The only thing that matters in business is, "the bottom line." Sales is a funny thing, some people are just naturally good at it. Most people just aren't. It's not something that they can teach you at Harvard business school. And big companies will give anyone a chance at sales in the hope that they're hiring a big producer. It's motivation and ability that they're looking for. They're really not interested that you got an A in a research paper 5 years ago. If you have a good track record in sales you can move right up the ladder. Or go to other companies. If you're good at sales you'll always have a job and you'll be making a lot more than other people. I was just a mediocre salesman, I made $50-$60k a year back in the 80's which wasn't too shabby. But some of the sales people made tremendous amounts of money- $6-$8k a week in commissions! No "degree" required.

thornhappy -> RE: Am I ruined? In serious need of advice. (4/26/2008 2:09:49 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: wandersalone fast reply I know how surprised I was years ago when a friend finally took me aside and expalined that my attitude was a major turn off to people. I hadn't thought about this before and whilst initially I was hurt I soon got over that and have been eternally grateful to her ever since. I had a similar experience with one of my early jobs. I almost was fired. Why? I was just too disorganized and too slow. That was tolerated at my previous job, but the workpace was much faster at the new one. Within a few weeks, I got more organized and a lot faster. It was quite a scare at the time, though (no relatives or friends nearby for support.) thornhappy

popeye1250 -> RE: Am I ruined? In serious need of advice. (4/26/2008 4:31:48 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: NorthernGent A degree is another string to your bow, Popeye, and, by and large, the more strings you have to your bow = the further you go. There'll always be exceptions to the rule. NG, bows don't have strings, they're made with horse hair.

christine1 -> RE: Am I ruined? In serious need of advice. (4/26/2008 4:51:18 PM)
OP, it sucks what happened, but if this is the worst thing that ever happens to you in life, count yourself lucky. move on...if you can't change it move on and make something better happen.

popeye1250 -> RE: Am I ruined? In serious need of advice. (4/26/2008 5:28:47 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: christine1 OP, it sucks what happened, but if this is worse thing that ever happens to you in life, count yourself lucky. move on...if you can't change it move on and make something better happen. I agree, it could be a blessing in disguise!

MasterKalif -> RE: Am I ruined? In serious need of advice. (4/26/2008 7:54:18 PM)
In terms of degrees and their validity, I think the bottom line is that companies know that individuals with a degree must have some work ethic, can have reasonable thinking, and have a basis on which the company can build on....by that I mean a basis from which the company can add more learning on that worker to get the results needed. In all jobs people need to be trained, no matter the work experience or lack thereof; the degree shows to that the individual is capable of something and persevering at it (the degree for instance or Phd or whatever). Next comes work experience, and then during the interview process, the personality, if the person is more of a yes man or a creative "go-getter"...and even in many companies, young people with degrees may be promoted faster than the old school seasoned workers because the older worker may lack a degree or may be reluctant to add a degree... food for thought.

popeye1250 -> RE: Am I ruined? In serious need of advice. (4/26/2008 9:05:17 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: MasterKalif In terms of degrees and their validity, I think the bottom line is that companies know that individuals with a degree must have some work ethic, can have reasonable thinking, and have a basis on which the company can build on....by that I mean a basis from which the company can add more learning on that worker to get the results needed. In all jobs people need to be trained, no matter the work experience or lack thereof; the degree shows to that the individual is capable of something and persevering at it (the degree for instance or Phd or whatever). Next comes work experience, and then during the interview process, the personality, if the person is more of a yes man or a creative "go-getter"...and even in many companies, young people with degrees may be promoted faster than the old school seasoned workers because the older worker may lack a degree or may be reluctant to add a degree... food for thought. Kalif, companies are in business to make money. That's not going to happen. You lose your experienced workers and you're in real trouble.

Real_Trouble -> RE: Am I ruined? In serious need of advice. (4/26/2008 9:17:30 PM)
quote: As for stockbrokers they only need to be liscensed, they're salespeople too. No "degree" required. And the big brokerages are always looking to steal the top producers away from the competition. If you're producing $10m in commissions a year trust me, Merrill Lynch or Paine Webber or Morgan Stanley would love to sit down and have a "chat" with you, it doesn't matter if you are a high school dropout. Then here is my challenge - name for me a single person you know of, at the associate level or above, currently employed with any major investment bank (or equivalent position at a major wealth management company) who doesn't have a college degree in a producing position. Bonus points if it is not someone in India or China (where that is more common, as they are hiring local workers). Double bonus points if it's not a sales shill peon in low level wealth management, but someone in actual investment banking, trading, or private high net worth. Triple points if you can name one at a prestigous office like UBS LA (though much more so before Moelis left). I scoured my contact list and can't find any, though I'm swimming in people who are undergrads or MBAs from the following schools: Harvard, Yale, MIT, UPenn, Cornell, Dartmouth, Columbia, Princeton, NYU, UChicago, Stanford, Berkeley, and Northwestern. There are several other colleges that also have at least more than one (BC, Duke, UCLA, USC, Carnegie Mellon, etc). There are zero on my contact list, working in any finance or finance related field, who do not have a college degree and are not minor support staff of some sort. That's among hundreds of people. And that's just sales. Let's not even get into quants and other assorted analytical staff. quote: And I can tell you from personal experience that a degree doesn't mean squat in those companies. One of the first things they tell you is; "forget whatever you learned in college, we're going to teach you our way." Think about it, who'd you rather have on your sales team, a 25 year old with a degree and no experience or a 35 year old with a lot of experience and no degree who's a multi-million dollar producer? In theory, I would need to know more about each one before I could make that case, but likewise, as I stated above, it's purely theoretical... as I know of zero people who are multi-million dollar producers who don't have college degrees! You seem to act like this is common, but you'd be a huge exception, from what I can see. Hell, I don't know of any who are producers at all without college degrees who work in the U.S. quote: It's not something that they can teach you at Harvard business school. And big companies will give anyone a chance at sales in the hope that they're hiring a big producer. This is patently false. Good luck getting an interview with an i-bank if you don't have a college degree, for instance. I'm serious here - you act like it's cake to walk in the door and get a job at many of the best companies in the world in a sales role. It's not. Again, point me to people who have and I'll be much more impressed. This kind of thing was much more common 20 or 30 years ago, before the mass of college graduates had grown, but it's just not the case now. I mean, can you do it? Yeah, sure, it's possible if you are extremely talented. If you are that good, would it be a better idea to go to college, get in the front door, and make more money immediately? Yes. quote: I was just a mediocre salesman, I made $50-$60k a year back in the 80's which wasn't too shabby. But some of the sales people made tremendous amounts of money- $6-$8k a week in commissions! No "degree" required. That's relatively trivial to do in insurance, which is about as backwards and dysfunctional an industry as exists while still even approximating finance. It's largely a local critical mass issue; I would say if you don't have a college degree, insurance is probably not a bad place to go. Then again, I would also take a moment to say that there's a reason most insurance companies get taken to the woodshed on pricing year in and year out by reinsurers, and why insurance company stocks are among the least profitable of the last decade or two. So, in short, unless you want to provide me with some solid evidence to back up your views beyond a few anecdotes, I am done responding to your posts. Go to school.

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