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Adding BDSM - 4/26/2008 10:35:56 AM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline 		I know we've been through this before, but it just seems to need to be said again.

I just came from the "Ask A Master" section, and a repeated problem was there yet again.  It always seems to start with "I'm new" and then proceed to unfold to telling the 'problem'.  The particulars don't matter much.  It always seems to stem from questions about simple relationship problems.  Things that would never even come into question if we were talking about vanilla relationships.  Should I be happy?  Is he just using me?  How much information should I give out online?  If the conversation didn't have the BDSM element, most people would wonder why these were even issues.

Not long ago, SimplyMicheal wrote a fabulous post about asking questions about whether or not a person was getting what they need.  This was about the same time that SteelofUtah wrote his piece about common sense.  Why is it that these things don't connect?  Can someone explain this phenomenon to Me?  Is there something about  a person giving or receiving their first bit of kink (real or imagined) cause them to lose their mind about obvious matters?   Does the brain somehow become disconnected?   Take the word  Dom/Master/Mistress etc. out of the question, and replace it with husband/boyfriend/lover and there are few that would doubt how easy the answer should be.

I'll end this little rant with (yet another) great South Park quote:

"Remember, there are no stupid questions.  Only stupid people."


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread
Profile   Post #: 1
RE: Adding BDSM - 4/26/2008 10:41:41 AM   
DesFIP


Posts: 25191
Joined: 11/25/2007
From: Apple County NY
Status: offline 		Well, if those posts, to which I would add Stephann's How to talk to a dom/sub (can't remember the title) were stuck up as good references in the Introduce Yourself forum, we probably wouldn't have so many newbies asking the same questions. But since two weeks later such threads are gone, a newbie isn't going to magically know about them.

It's a pity that there isn't a way for such threads to be linked in a reference thread either at the top of Introduce Yourself or here in General.

_____________________________

Slave to laundry

Cynical and proud of it!


(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 2
RE: Adding BDSM - 4/26/2008 10:47:41 AM   
OldBastardly1


Posts: 651
Joined: 7/22/2006
From: Atlanta, GA
Status: offline 		I completely agree. Even though most of us have experience in dating in the vanilla world, when we add in the BDSM element, many people lose their minds and couldn't buy common sense.

_____________________________

Old Bastard

"You cannot make footprints in the sands of time if you're sitting on your butt. And who wants to make buttprints in the sands of time?" -- Bob Moawad



(in reply to DesFIP)
Profile   Post #: 3
RE: Adding BDSM - 4/26/2008 10:47:43 AM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		People learn over time and through experience.  Yes, there are awesome posts which are incredibly helpful, but people are still going to learn by getting out there and screwing up.  Did you listen to all the wise advice your parents gave?  Probably not - people experiment, they are insecure, they think it will be differnt for them, they have false expectations - they jump in and get their feet wet but sometimes the water is too hot and they get burned.  So they ask for help, because they are ready for it then.  Before that, they're probably not in the right headspace to receive it or even understand it.

I doubt there is any one of us who has not done something (or many things) stupid in our life times.  We all blow it.  We all make mistakes.  We all have stupid moments.  We all wish we would have listened to sage advice at some point in our lives. 

Keep the links of helpful and informative posts handy, or in your profile journal.  When you see these "newbie" help questions, or even "oldie" help questions, copy them to the thread.

_____________________________

Good is the enemy of great.

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 4
RE: Adding BDSM - 4/26/2008 11:28:19 AM   
chamberqueen


Posts: 1597
Joined: 10/25/2007
From: Kalamazoo, MI
Status: offline 		I believe that there are differences in expectations between lifestyle and vanilla relationships.  I will do things for the lifestyle that I wouldn't have done in a vanilla relationship, but there are also many more benefits than I ever saw before.  Each person needs to find their own balance, and in the beginning it is tough.

_____________________________



(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 5
RE: Adding BDSM - 4/26/2008 12:26:15 PM   
MastrVran


Posts: 354
Joined: 3/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyPact


Is there something about  a person giving or receiving their first bit of kink (real or imagined) cause them to lose their mind about obvious matters?   Does the brain somehow become disconnected?   Take the word  Dom/Master/Mistress etc. out of the question, and replace it with husband/boyfriend/lover and there are few that would doubt how easy the answer should be.



The simplest answer is simply, that this is not a h/b/l type relationship and the dynamics are very different. If you wanted someone who was like a h/b/l you would not be seeking a Dominant. And since this is a very different type of relationship, with totally different rules and very real but different requirements, most people have no real clue what if any their rights are. How much of a say they should have, and even if they have a voice at all.

Now many on here will give varied answers as to what is allowed, required, recommended and for some that there is no difference between this and any relationship. And all the answers are right, as applied to the people giving them.

However with that said, many submissives and slaves are seeking a situation in which their desires and feelings, while appreciated are not the focal point of the relationship. The fact that some things are nor fair, do not make them feel great, or seems wrong, does not make it wrong. Seeking out someone to submit to, leaves you open to something wonderful, the fact that the person you are submitting to is now going to make some to all of the decisions. At what point is what they decide, to be considered wrong? For many on here its at any point where it varies from what you personally consider to be ok for you. Good for you. Yet that has no real bearing on what the person asking the question wants or wanted from their submission.

So your question really is simply pointing out a lot of peoples beliefs that even though someone wants to submit and allow another to control them, they have to always be in control and able to stop anything that appears wrong. And why are they so stupid as to have to ask such an obviously easy question with such a simple answer.

The truth is that the problem is not with the submissive. They are doing as they should and as their desires dictates. Obeying who they submit to is the fundamental basis for this lifestyle. They are not doing anything wrong or stupid. Other than possibly having accepted a person who should not be involved in this at all as the one to whom they submitted to. And that is where all the problems originate from, the trolls, HNGs, idiots, and I just want to get laid and have learned how to say Dom like things guys, who flood sites like this and take advantage of the natural desires of submissives and slaves.

There is no answer other than, in time they will learn and realize that the person they are obeying hasnt got a clue what they are doing. At which point, they start asking questions that should have been asked when they got here. But most people dont even know the questions to ask, much less the answers to look for. And making fun of their stupidity for not knowing or understanding all this when they arrived really isnt helpful.

Anyone who has been in this lifestyle for any length of time, and does not understand this basic fundamental idea, that this is not a normal easily understood relationship, with already known rules and requirements, just doesnt get what and who we are.

I know that I fully expect anyone who is just coming in to make lots of mistakes that in a normal relationship they wouldnt make. They would not be here if a normal relationship was what they wanted. So when someone tells them to do something, and it triggers their desires and needs, and they start obeying and it feels so good, and that leads to more and more, and at sometime, they start wondering if they are doing right because it does not feel like a normal relationship. Well, thats pretty much the normal progression. Some times what they are feeling about it being wrong, is correct and it was wrong at least according to most people. Other times it may be right, but since its different, they just dont realize it.

Just some thoughts about this line of reasoning.

MV




(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 6
RE: Adding BDSM - 4/26/2008 12:38:44 PM   
OldBastardly1


Posts: 651
Joined: 7/22/2006
From: Atlanta, GA
Status: offline 		For being a simple answer, that sure took a lot to express it, LOL.

I have been around a while and I disagree with you about the beginnings of a relationship. Meeting someone requires the same basic rules , whether vanilla or kink. It IS that simple. Once you are involved with somebody, the rules change.

_____________________________

Old Bastard

"You cannot make footprints in the sands of time if you're sitting on your butt. And who wants to make buttprints in the sands of time?" -- Bob Moawad



(in reply to MastrVran)
Profile   Post #: 7
RE: Adding BDSM - 4/26/2008 12:57:31 PM   
MastrVran


Posts: 354
Joined: 3/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OldBastardly1

For being a simple answer, that sure took a lot to express it, LOL.

I have been around a while and I disagree with you about the beginnings of a relationship. Meeting someone requires the same basic rules , whether vanilla or kink. It IS that simple. Once you are involved with somebody, the rules change.


Lol...it should. The problem realistically though is that the feelings that brings most submissives to this lifestyle is the desire to be controlled. And since they desire to be controlled, that obviously changes the normal requirements for a relationship as they are seeing it. Or, it appears to. And that is why there are so many problems. There really is no difference, and over time, they learn to question and try to find someone who wants the same things they do. But at first, its all about submitting and being controlled. And in that, the lines disappear that would be normally used in relationships.

Is this what should happen? No. But as stated, they dont even know the right questions to ask, much less the right answers to look for. Would having posts kept up permenantly on this help? Not really. Or perhaps occasionally. A large perecentage of people on this site dont even know there is a forum area. Those that find them often do so when they finally want to start asking the right questions. And thats not the time to slam them for being idiots and not having already known all this.

MV

(in reply to OldBastardly1)
Profile   Post #: 8
RE: Adding BDSM - 4/26/2008 1:16:55 PM   
OldBastardly1


Posts: 651
Joined: 7/22/2006
From: Atlanta, GA
Status: offline 		I understand what you are saying, after a relationship, of sorts, has been established. But when talking about the basics of how to protect yourself when FIRST meeting someone, the hows, the wheres, the whens....these are not so dis-similar from the vanilla world.
Sure they want to be controlled to some extent, but before they select somebody ( or are selected ) to submit to, they still need to use common sense. To blindly submit to any self proclaimed Dom is not only foolish or unwise. It is completely freaking stupid.

_____________________________

Old Bastard

"You cannot make footprints in the sands of time if you're sitting on your butt. And who wants to make buttprints in the sands of time?" -- Bob Moawad



(in reply to MastrVran)
Profile   Post #: 9
RE: Adding BDSM - 4/26/2008 1:17:37 PM   
Poetryinpain


Posts: 341
Joined: 3/20/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MastrVran
Is this what should happen? No. But as stated, they dont even know the right questions to ask, much less the right answers to look for. Would having posts kept up permenantly on this help? Not really. Or perhaps occasionally. A large perecentage of people on this site dont even know there is a forum area. Those that find them often do so when they finally want to start asking the right questions. And thats not the time to slam them for being idiots and not having already known all this.

Speaking as an s-type who 'submitted all over the place' when I first started here and didn't have time to come to the forums, I can second this. It was only when I emerged from the initial sub frenzy that I regained my common sense.

I was lucky - I didn't get so caught up in the newness of this that I got into something I would later regret. But I have great sympathy and compassion for those who do.

I like to think that I possess a reasonable amount of common sense. But the heady feeling of sub frenzy kicks common sense out the window. I would imagine that 'dom frenzy' (presuming that such a phenomenon exists) does much the same thing. It is nearly impossible at that point to differentiate between 'players,' 'wannabes,' hng's, and sincere, honest people of the appropriate orientation.

Unfortunately, there are those who won't read the sensible and wonderfully-written posts of those like SimplyMichael and SteelofUtah and others I have read, and there are those who don't even know those posts exist. Is it our responsibility to reach out to those people when we see them floundering in the deep end?

I don't know if I have an answer to that question - at least not for everyone. I know what the answer is for myself, and I act accordingly.

pip, not everyone's nanny, but trying to act and speak with common sense

_____________________________

There is none so blind as he who will not see.

(in reply to MastrVran)
Profile   Post #: 10
RE: Adding BDSM - 4/26/2008 1:21:11 PM   
MladyHathor


Posts: 510
Joined: 4/6/2008
Status: offline 		We as peoples are lonely--all the accoutrements have not brought us the emotional nirvana we were promised, so we see a way, a place where with a few simple words we believe we will be accepted and never alone again and yet another chance to get nirvana---its like tasting something wonderful for the first time, we are so desparate for THAT love, THAT moment, THAT attachment---all caution flies out the window.

_____________________________

The Mistress Hathor, always and forever, much to the disdain and discomfort of others.

(in reply to LadyPact)
Profile   Post #: 11
RE: Adding BDSM - 4/26/2008 1:33:37 PM   
MastrVran


Posts: 354
Joined: 3/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OldBastardly1

I understand what you are saying, after a relationship, of sorts, has been established. But when talking about the basics of how to protect yourself when FIRST meeting someone, the hows, the wheres, the whens....these are not so dis-similar from the vanilla world.
Sure they want to be controlled to some extent, but before they select somebody ( or are selected ) to submit to, they still need to use common sense. To blindly submit to any self proclaimed Dom is not only foolish or unwise. It is completely freaking stupid.


Laughs, no arguement about it potentially being stupid. But its all in the way people perceive submission and the desire for control. The fact you can see this has no bearing whatsoever on what they are feeling and seeing. You have the usual 20/20 looking back type sight.

When people first come into this, they simply want to submit. And many jump into totally improper relationships because of it. How many girls on here will say as soon as they log on 50 emails hit their box? Most. Why is that? Because so many newbies, without experience, will submit, because that is their desire. Not because that is the right, best or thought out thing to do. I at least realize this exists and do not blame them or call them stupid. They are naive and ignorant. At some point, they will learn enough to seek better answers. Or they will be so hurt they will disappear and give up. Or maybe they will be one of the lucky ones and make a lucky choice.

The problem I have with you and the OP on this, is that you blame someone who has no real knowledge of what this is and expect them to come into this understanding things they cant understand. Yeah their common sense should have said to do certain things. But the desire to submit is not about common sense. Its about trusting the dominant to do the right thing. And as you and I know, the number of people on here that should be trusted is a lot less than we would like.

MV

(in reply to OldBastardly1)
Profile   Post #: 12
RE: Adding BDSM - 4/26/2008 1:47:30 PM   
OldBastardly1


Posts: 651
Joined: 7/22/2006
From: Atlanta, GA
Status: offline 		We obviously come from different schools of thought and quite probably desire different things.

I still expect an adult to act as such.

If a new sub were tell you that she was going meet a Dom for the first time. He lives alone on a farm with no neighbors nearby. she is to drive there naked. When she arrives at his isolated house, she is get out of the car and put on a blindfold. She was instructed to NOT tell anybody where she was going or what she was doing.

Would you say she would be stupid to do this? Or would it depend if you were the guy at the farm? LOL. 

_____________________________

Old Bastard

"You cannot make footprints in the sands of time if you're sitting on your butt. And who wants to make buttprints in the sands of time?" -- Bob Moawad



(in reply to MastrVran)
Profile   Post #: 13
RE: Adding BDSM - 4/26/2008 2:27:31 PM   
MastrVran


Posts: 354
Joined: 3/15/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OldBastardly1

We obviously come from different schools of thought and quite probably desire different things.

I still expect an adult to act as such.

If a new sub were tell you that she was going meet a Dom for the first time. He lives alone on a farm with no neighbors nearby. she is to drive there naked. When she arrives at his isolated house, she is get out of the car and put on a blindfold. She was instructed to NOT tell anybody where she was going or what she was doing.

Would you say she would be stupid to do this? Or would it depend if you were the guy at the farm? LOL. 


Why not both lol. And your scenario while a little far fetched, isnt that far out. Ever watch the movie East if Eden? In that her first real experience was to go to house where she knew no one, she was told to strip, put on certain items and then wait. Smart? the right thing to do? Possibly not. But everyone is looking for certain things. Some of them are usually something exotic, sexy, arousing, or what ever. But it almost always involves something that is not vanilla.

If you changed a little in your scenario it wouldn't be that dangerous. Remove tell no one, change drive naked to when you pull around the first bend of my driveway stop and strip. Then you might just have a fun exotic fantasy coming to life.

Now is this really a smart thing to do with someone you have not met? Of course not. Simply because we know that too many people are not what they claim to be. So safety is always a serious consideration.

Its not that we have different expectaions really, its that you are expecting a submissive who is just begining to act like a Dominant and be in charge and take responsibility and understand the risks she is taking. In other words be an adult. Yet in this desire to submit to someone else, they are in some ways returning to a child like state. Giving their trust to someone who they hope and believe will take care of them and give them what they have needed. A person to submit to. This is a totally different dynamic than anything they have done before. And most supposed doms are pushing the...you MUST trust me idea. And so it seems a test of their submission and so they reach out for it and get sucked in.

My point is simply that this is not an issue of intelligence or common sense, its about a desire to find what you seek and that includes someone who will do the right things. Unfortunately, there are not that many on any site that should be submitted to. Its just the finding out who to trust and what is dangerous that most of these submissives will have to learn through trial and error. Since the very idea they are seeking is to give their trust to someone and let him decide what is safe and what is not. If they did not want this, they would be making more safe and common sense decisions.

MV

(in reply to OldBastardly1)
Profile   Post #: 14
RE: Adding BDSM - 4/26/2008 2:39:34 PM   
OldBastardly1


Posts: 651
Joined: 7/22/2006
From: Atlanta, GA
Status: offline 		I give up. I think I made my point.

_____________________________

Old Bastard

"You cannot make footprints in the sands of time if you're sitting on your butt. And who wants to make buttprints in the sands of time?" -- Bob Moawad



(in reply to MastrVran)
Profile   Post #: 15
RE: Adding BDSM - 4/26/2008 3:00:13 PM   
LadyPact


Posts: 32566
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: MastrVran

quote:

ORIGINAL: OldBastardly1

I understand what you are saying, after a relationship, of sorts, has been established. But when talking about the basics of how to protect yourself when FIRST meeting someone, the hows, the wheres, the whens....these are not so dis-similar from the vanilla world.
Sure they want to be controlled to some extent, but before they select somebody ( or are selected ) to submit to, they still need to use common sense. To blindly submit to any self proclaimed Dom is not only foolish or unwise. It is completely freaking stupid.


Laughs, no arguement about it potentially being stupid. But its all in the way people perceive submission and the desire for control. The fact you can see this has no bearing whatsoever on what they are feeling and seeing. You have the usual 20/20 looking back type sight.

When people first come into this, they simply want to submit. And many jump into totally improper relationships because of it. How many girls on here will say as soon as they log on 50 emails hit their box? Most. Why is that? Because so many newbies, without experience, will submit, because that is their desire. Not because that is the right, best or thought out thing to do. I at least realize this exists and do not blame them or call them stupid. They are naive and ignorant. At some point, they will learn enough to seek better answers. Or they will be so hurt they will disappear and give up. Or maybe they will be one of the lucky ones and make a lucky choice.

The problem I have with you and the OP on this, is that you blame someone who has no real knowledge of what this is and expect them to come into this understanding things they cant understand. Yeah their common sense should have said to do certain things. But the desire to submit is not about common sense. Its about trusting the dominant to do the right thing. And as you and I know, the number of people on here that should be trusted is a lot less than we would like.

MV

It seems OB and I have each other's back today.  (The driving to the farm naked was an excellent example, btw.)

Let's try this for size.

How many people do you know marry someone they have never met?  BDSM equivilant of *master online.

How many people do you know that can't talk to their partner about their marriage/relationship?  BDSM equivilent of how do I approach.

If you go out and have a one night stand, why would you think it's a lifetime commitment?  BDSM equivilant of my *master doesn't email me anymore.

If you go to a professional for a service, you expect to be charged.  BDSM equivilant of why do pro dommes ask for money?

I really could go on and on with examples, but the point is there.  Keep in mind, these things don't all come from starry-eyed youngsters.  Much of this comes from people who have had several relationships in their lives and know perfectly well (I would hope) that if the question was put into a vanilla context, they wouldn't waste the keystrokes.  These are grown ups, after all, who should have a responsibility for the choices they make, persue the relationships they want, and hopefully enjoy their existence. 

I highlighted a couple of the bits above because I wanted to make comments to those particular points.  I think, at some point, people have to have their own measure of accountability if they jump into inappropriate relationships.  Just the same as vanilla folks might point out that someone repeatedly gets involved in relationships where the other person is co-dependent.  That's called a pattern and highly recognized in the vanilla world as something a person might want to look at *within themselves*.

Naive and ignorant?  Sorry, not going for that one either.  First of all, this is the net.  The information is literally at the fingertips.  Not great with search functions?  Cool.  Buy a book.  Go to a munch.  Get involved in the community with others who identify as you do.  (Yes, big fan of submissive support groups here.)  Sub frenzy, or Dom/me frenzy for that matter, is not the 'get out of jail free' card for every decision a person choses to make and not want to take responsibility for.

Trusting the dominant to do the right thing.  Well, in the beginning of a relationship, or even for play negotiations, there should be a reason for that trust to be in place.  I get that you're a male, so you might not see this one the way I do, but a woman, no matter which side of the kneel you are on, hopefully will establish the reasons *why* they should trust anyone.  If you're not going to open your front door for a stranger in the vanilla world, it's probably not a good idea to do so just because somebody slapped *master in front of their screen name.


_____________________________

The crowned Diva of Destruction. ~ ExT

Beach Ball Sized Lady Nuts. ~ TWD

Happily dating a new submissive. It's official. I've named him engie.

Please do not send me email here. Unless I know you, I will delete the email unread

(in reply to MastrVran)
Profile   Post #: 16
RE: Adding BDSM - 4/26/2008 3:04:44 PM   
kiwisub12


Posts: 4742
Joined: 1/11/2006
Status: offline 		When i first started in this lifestyle i did not know that there were posers and want ta bes out there. I just assumed that everyone was the thing they announced themselves to be - because i am that way. I could have really got into trouble, but didn't because my Sir found me.

and in any relationship, if you are female, you have to take a risk and go somewhere where you are alone with someone you don't really know. You can date in public all you want, and still may have  a Ted Bundy  with you.  If there is somewhere we can go for basic safety information, i didn't find it when i started. I am more informed now, and hopefully, if the situation changed, i would be safer now.

i think it is easy for males to pooh pooh the inherent risk in being a female in a male world, because they can't conceive of being so much physically weaker than the opposite sex. Its just not something they have experienced in their adult lives. The reality of being physically weaker means that women have to trust in the capacity of men to restrain their base instincts and not ascribe to the might makes right ethos.

while it is probably really irritating to have people repeat the same question with small variations - that is how we as newbies learn. Please have patients with us.

(in reply to OldBastardly1)
Profile   Post #: 17
RE: Adding BDSM - 4/26/2008 3:16:40 PM   
IronBear


Posts: 9008
Joined: 6/19/2005
From: Beenleigh, Qld, Australia
Status: offline 		For me there is no difference between Kink, BDSM or a new valilla/mundane situation I get into from time to time. I sit back, look and listen and graduly filter out the dross and find knowledgable people who are willing to talk to a newby. basically if I don't know I shut up till I learn enough to ask not so basic questions.... But then too, I am not a social person. Just an ordinary bloke who is happier in isolated areas than in crowds.

Iron Bear
Master of Bruin Cottage
(A Victorian Lifestyle poly home)

"I judge a Man by what I see him do and not by what others tell me he does." (Captain Sir Edward Pellew of the HMS Indefatigable to Midshipman Hornblower ~ C.S. Forrester)


(in reply to kiwisub12)
Profile   Post #: 18
RE: Adding BDSM - 4/26/2008 3:16:42 PM   
OldBastardly1


Posts: 651
Joined: 7/22/2006
From: Atlanta, GA
Status: offline 		I guess we will just have to get used to hearing " but i don't want to take responsibility for my actions". Usually followed by "he took advantage of me" or " he is an abuser". Also followed by "i was soooo stupid".
Maybe I am being too simplistic. It just seems so much easier to think just a little bit. I thought all of us, especially females, have had this stuff beat into our heads from a young age.
Protect yourself first. Trust nobody till it is earned.

_____________________________

Old Bastard

"You cannot make footprints in the sands of time if you're sitting on your butt. And who wants to make buttprints in the sands of time?" -- Bob Moawad



(in reply to kiwisub12)
Profile   Post #: 19
RE: Adding BDSM - 4/26/2008 3:30:37 PM   
Fischen


Posts: 15
Joined: 2/22/2008
Status: offline 		/////  If a new sub were tell you that she was going meet a Dom for the first time. He lives alone on a farm with no neighbors nearby. she is to drive there naked. When she arrives at his isolated house, she is get out of the car and put on a blindfold. She was instructed to NOT tell anybody where she was going or what she was doing. /////

Hey now !!!  Let's change that to "a secluded warehouse in a bad part of town", shall we ??

I'm about to be moving to a fam with no neighbors nearby, and I don't need anyone scaring off the little girls!!

Fischen

_____________________________

"If I've made myself too clear, you must have misunderstood me,"

~Alan Greenspan

(in reply to kiwisub12)
Profile   Post #: 20
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