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RE: Wright, NAACP - 4/28/2008 12:01:06 PM   
domiguy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

quote:

ORIGINAL: Level

quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Channel 4 here is reporting that youre all pissed at him for saying you brought 9/11 on yourselves......

E


That's part of it, E.


Interesting. And the general US citizen doesnt see any relationship between US foreign policy and the 9/11 attacks as a reaction to them?

Or would that require a degree of introspection which is discomforting to the presumed position of the US as the supreme paragon of virtue as a preference?

I've heard a bit of what this reverend has had to say - though by all means I havent heard all. Yes, from what I've heard, its discomforting stuff. Yet it makes sense, it rings true. I wonder if that is indeed what the problem with this guy is?

No one likes to be told that after all, that they got beaten up because they picked a fight.

E




It is tough shit to swallow...The reaction to every action. So many just want to paint the "terrorists" with the "they hate our way of life" paint brush...Never take into consideration that our foreign policies have not exactly inspired people to "love our way of life."

No one deserves a 9-11....It was such a wasted opportunity. We had built in goodwill and we were the focus of the world. How does an overall Christian nation respond to such an attack? We will turn that goodwill into something positive or piss it all down the drain?....I can't seem to recall what happened?


< Message edited by domiguy -- 4/28/2008 12:08:54 PM >

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RE: Wright, NAACP - 4/28/2008 12:18:23 PM   
LadyEllen


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Status: offline 		Its a difficult one Domiguy. As a westerner, the 9/11 attacks on ordinary people at work amazed and appalled me.

But at the same time, putting myself in the shoes of a Muslim who sees what he regards as his people suffering all over the Islamic world as a result of western foreign policies against which his own leaders do nothing but instead pocket funding from the west to keep me quiet.......

The problem is alike to that of a successful uprising in the Warsaw ghetto during WWII; as a Jew living in those conditions I wouldnt hesitate to kill any German or non-German nazi collaborator if I had my chance, and I'd kill thousands if I had the chance. No matter whether they be soldiers or citizens, old or young, male or female. The time would have long since passed that I discerned any difference between those who imprisoned me and those who supported my imprisonment, however tacitly.

E 

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RE: Wright, NAACP - 4/28/2008 12:19:40 PM   
XNakisisaX


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Status: offline 		I know a few ministers who make Wright look like choirboy. What does it matter? He's a christian minister. His reference point text is already flawed, so he's right on some things and wrong on others, like all of us. Hell, he wasn't too offensive to his white congregation. None of them walked out or complained. (Probably because they know they run things in that church) As long as he has his historical facts straight, he's cool with me. Like Obama, he says what he says to continue to live the lifestyle he's accustomed to. For those who wholeheartedly disagree with him and are offended by him,this is only the beginning. Lets not forget we have our own scholars and psychologists that debunk much of what is being taught in schools. Take your arguments up with the authors he mentioned: Asa Hilliard, Carter G. Woodson etc.

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RE: Wright, NAACP - 4/28/2008 12:20:37 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Interesting. And the general US citizen doesnt see any relationship between US foreign policy and the 9/11 attacks as a reaction to them?


The "average" citizen? Oh, hell no LOL.

quote:

Or would that require a degree of introspection which is discomforting to the presumed position of the US as the supreme paragon of virtue as a preference?


Some certainly do find such introspection uncomfortable. Of course, some do the work, and still find the idea ludicrous.



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RE: Wright, NAACP - 4/28/2008 1:19:18 PM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: domiguy

No one deserves a 9-11....It was such a wasted opportunity. We had built in goodwill and we were the focus of the world. How does an overall Christian nation respond to such an attack? We will turn that goodwill into something positive or piss it all down the drain?....I can't seem to recall what happened?



A Christian nation (if ever one were to exist) should not have put itself in a position to be on the receiving end in the first place I should fancy? And if by some happenstance it did find itself on the receiving end, a Christian nation would surely do as Jesus preached and turn the other cheek and offer forgiveness?

But then a Christian nation would never last more than a few months at that rate in the world in which we live. A world in which every group of human beings seeks advantage by collective action, and in which every individual human being seeks personal advantage by individual endeavour, and is only prevented from the aim by the competing forces of other groups and individuals each seeking the same. One cannot survive this world in the Christian way, unless one counts being thrown to lions as an integral part of the faith.

And unless one names lions as Christians too, there were no Christians involved in dealing with 9/11. Had there been such a presence, one might have expected some introspection as to what the west in general and the US in particular might have done to generate such hatred and violence. One might have expected changes in foreign policy as a result of such introspections, with the aim of reducing and eventually eliminating the hatred and violence.

But the very reason the west is not Christian is that it encourages and allows, enables and celebrates the lion, and has done ever since the lion donned the wool of the lamb centuries ago. The lion is no Christian - in fact he devours those who espouse right. And the lion doesnt take shit from anyone. And if he can bring down and eat another lion, he will. All the while wearing the wool of the lamb, so that the sheep will be deceived into following him.

E

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RE: Wright, NAACP - 4/28/2008 1:45:27 PM   
kittinSol


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quote:

ORIGINAL: XNakisisaX

I know a few ministers who make Wright look like choirboy. What does it matter? He's a christian minister. His reference point text is already flawed, so he's right on some things and wrong on others, like all of us.



Good point.

It's incredible... people fall for this blatant manipulation. Do they not see that the real issues are being avoided by this media hysteria? Or do they see it, and fall for it knowingly?

Then the American public wonders why they are seen as gullible, uninformed and ignorant by the rest of the world: well, this non-story about Wright is a perfect example why.

I just hope that the noise only results from the rabid minority of individuals who are trying to sabotage this election and turn it into a circus yet again, and that in the end, the electorate will see this for what it is: mud-slinging, dirty tactics, and propaganda.

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RE: Wright, NAACP - 4/28/2008 2:11:31 PM   
cjan


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RE: Wright, NAACP - 4/28/2008 2:15:47 PM   
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quote:

ORIGINAL: kittinSol
Then the American public wonders why they are seen as gullible, uninformed and ignorant by the rest of the world: well, this non-story about Wright is a perfect example why.


kittin, what makes it a pertinent story is that Obama has a deep connection to Wright. If someone disagrees with Wright, finds him wrong, twisted, and/or dangerous, then they have a legitimate question to ask; does Barack Obama identify with him?
 
Do others try to use all of this to their advantage? Of course they do. That doesn't make those other questions any less relevant, though.
 
I've been reading the Moyers show transcript, and am almost done with it, by the way.

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RE: Wright, NAACP - 4/28/2008 2:20:01 PM   
LadyEllen


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Level
kittin, what makes it a pertinent story is that Obama has a deep connection to Wright. If someone disagrees with Wright, finds him wrong, twisted, and/or dangerous, then they have a legitimate question to ask; does Barack Obama identify with him?
 


You see, this is what I find troublesome - if this preacher is actually saying stuff that is
a) true, and
b) a catalyst towards positive change

Then surely the association with Obama is a positive one?

Except that
c) No one wants to hear it.

Think people please? Your choice affects all of us. This isnt a high school popularity contest - youre choosing a candidate for president.

E


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RE: Wright, NAACP - 4/28/2008 2:25:22 PM   
Level


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Status: offline 		Excellent post, E.
 
I'm still reading...... finished soon.

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RE: Wright, NAACP - 4/28/2008 2:43:00 PM   
LotusSong


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Status: offline 		This preacher has POWERS!!!!  When I went to bed last night..I was a Whitie.. this morning.. I'm now a "European!"

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RE: Wright, NAACP - 4/28/2008 3:25:13 PM   
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Status: offline 		Much of what Wright said is correct. But the way he says it does no one any good. And swerving back and forth from truth to conspiracy theory to haughtyness to bull, doesn't, either.
 
So, he stands by what he said. He says Obama is just being a politician, basically, in distancing himself from the statements, which insinuates that Obama does agree, IMO.
 
So, we focus on these things, trying to get an answer.
 




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RE: Wright, NAACP - 4/28/2008 5:05:32 PM   
Alumbrado


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LadyEllen

Its a difficult one Domiguy. As a westerner, the 9/11 attacks on ordinary people at work amazed and appalled me.

But at the same time, putting myself in the shoes of a Muslim who sees what he regards as his people suffering all over the Islamic world as a result of western foreign policies against which his own leaders do nothing but instead pocket funding from the west to keep me quiet.......

The problem is alike to that of a successful uprising in the Warsaw ghetto during WWII; as a Jew living in those conditions I wouldnt hesitate to kill any German or non-German nazi collaborator if I had my chance, and I'd kill thousands if I had the chance. No matter whether they be soldiers or citizens, old or young, male or female. The time would have long since passed that I discerned any difference between those who imprisoned me and those who supported my imprisonment, however tacitly.

E 


Except of course, that the appropriate analogy is between those who want to kill Jews and destroy the West because 'they've stolen the land of our people', and those who wanted to kill Jews and destroy the West in the name of 'Leibensraum'...you may be comfortable putting yourself in those shoes, I'm not.


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RE: Wright, NAACP - 4/28/2008 5:34:27 PM   
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quote:

Asked to respond to Mr. Wright’s contention that he has been the victim of a smear campaign, Mr. Obama said: “No. I think that people were legitimately offended by some of the comments that he had made in the past. The fact that he is my former pastor I think makes it a legitimate political issue. So I understand that.”

But he also said that media coverage of Mr. Wright had simplified his service in the church, and turned him into a caricature.


http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/04/28/rev-wright-defends-church-blasts-media/index.html?hp

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Fake the heat and scratch the itch
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RE: Wright, NAACP - 4/28/2008 5:59:38 PM   
Alumbrado


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ORIGINAL: greyarcher315

As far as Reverand Wright is concerned, i have seen the video of his whole sermon, and while i can't say all of it is bad,  he goes into a whole tirade about how the government is bad because it is white. He is certainly entitled to his opinion, but i think he really needs to seperate his political views from the religious views he was supposed to be teaching. The fact that he believes that the US created AIDS to kill off the black race, and pretty much every war in modern times was orcastrated by the government gives one pause when try to accept his viewpoint. 

Here is a where one can find that video, so you can look for yourself.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,352661,00.html




Except of course, that what he really said is that a government capable of conducting the Tuskegee syphillis experiements could be capable of anything....  are you seriously going to try to deny that Tuskegee happened?

< Message edited by Alumbrado -- 4/28/2008 6:58:16 PM >

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RE: Wright, NAACP - 4/28/2008 6:55:39 PM   
domiguy


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Status: offline 		It's crazy to suggest that black and white issues are the same that our collective experiences have been the same and that we should all view this country in the same light.

So many seem to think that everything is perfect...For some reason those voices all seem to be emanating from white faces.



< Message edited by domiguy -- 4/28/2008 6:56:08 PM >

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RE: Wright, NAACP - 4/28/2008 7:52:47 PM   
Alumbrado


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Status: offline 		Same sort of  faces that were talking about 'outside agitators' and advising minorities to behave 50 years ago

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RE: Wright, NAACP - 4/28/2008 8:13:05 PM   
pollux


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ORIGINAL: kittinSol

Remember the fury a few days ago over freedom of speech? What happened to it?!


I dunno, maybe it's a non-issue because no one is asserting that the Right Reverend belongs in jail (or fined or hauled into court or otherwise supervised by the state) for his ideas?




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RE: Wright, NAACP - 4/28/2008 10:58:14 PM   
Emperor1956


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cjan:  OK, even as "liberal" as I am (ok, ok, I'm an anarchist) , I think kittensol needs to be kittnapped, kept in a dark dungeon and, ummm reamed, noooo...I mean reprogrammed!


Well, yes.  But I think she needs that regardless of her political beliefs.  The fact that she's adorable, smart and tells it like it is makes her even more...uh....programmable?

E.

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RE: Wright, NAACP - 4/29/2008 5:31:11 AM   
XNakisisaX


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quote:

ORIGINAL: cyberdude611

When he was talking about Africans being "right-brained" and Europeans being "left-brained".... It just left me (being a psychology major in college) just shaking my head. His ideas on education are also way off...it's almost laughable. The problem in schools today is not learning style...it is motivation. Sure it might be learning style issues for some students. But for the vast majority, the problem is motivation.




He's talking about psychology studies in the 1970s. That stuff is very primative in the field of cognitive psychology because before the 1970s, psychology was based on behavior. So most of these studies were from a behaviorist perspective. Recent studies (1990s through today) show different results and propose several different theories and are more advanced than simply saying "Africans have right-dominated brains."

Seriously....this guy hasnt a clue what he's talking about.



"Until the lion learns to talk, the hunter will always tell the story" African proverb.
With that bit of wisdom said, let's have your psychologists and my psychologists compare their data and see how far off he is. These two doctors, Dr. Amos Wilson and Dr. Francis Cress Welsing have all the books you need to compare and contrast what you learned in school. So, its not Wright's theories, but the other authors and doctors he's studied to incorporate in his sermons. Lastly, the world renowned "Greek philosophers" are usually the source for higher education, but people forget they were taught in Africa and like everything else they learned from other cultures, they perverted it to what we have today, yet what Wright said was considered off? Read of the people that taught the Greeks to find what's happening.

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