RE: Dying and Coming back~~

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MissMorrigan -> RE: Dying and Coming back~~ (4/30/2008 11:57:36 AM)
Sometimes people need such a drastic wake up call, quite literally, to alter the course of their lives by providing an altogether perspective, giving them clarity by making them face their mortality. I watched a programme which interviewed a doctor who claimed that he could connect spiritually with souls the moment they depart this life. His colleagues thought him nuts, as did I when I was watching the programme and snickered derisively. That was until he recalled one of his patients, a woman in her twilight years. He tried all he could to save her, to no avail. Her husband watched as she slipped away and was pronounced dead by two doctors. As they sat in silence the man sobbing at how he'd lost his soul mate and that he could not face living on earth without her. The doctor told him to say these words directly to HER. The man looked at him wild-eyed in disbelief, shaking his head, but the doctor stood firm and insisted he wasted no more time. The guy took his wife's hand in his, his tears falling over her hand and he began sobbing to her at how his life was over with if he no longer had his soul mate, that there would be two funerals and that every minute she had been in his life had been the happiest any man could possibly have been. He said that he refused to leave that hospital room and tell their children and grandchildren that he had failed to save her. He finally told her that he was also angry that she had left so much work undone. The doctor was also in tears by this time and both sat incredulous as her fingers started to tighten around her husband's hand. Given the lapse in time from her heart stopping and her being pronounced dead by two doctors, she should have suffered severe brain damage and yet, she didn't. Why? So many unanswered questions. The man and his wife were interviewed, her medical records scrutinised. We can explain most biological processes, but t here are always those exceptions and still we remain ignorant of the brain's full abilities.

MistyMenthal -> RE: Dying and Coming back~~ (4/30/2008 2:20:03 PM)
quote: ...and maybe it won't. And I am completely comfortable with it - either way. the.dark. quote: ORIGINAL: LotusSong I can't recall who said it but "I'd rather live as if there was a God and find out that there isn't.. than to live as if there is no God and find out there is". For me.. this holds the same for an afterlife :) This is when you will know! Always, misty[sm=hello.gif]

batshalom -> RE: Dying and Coming back~~ (4/30/2008 3:10:06 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rule Arguing that because that which we experience as spiritual is the result of a physical / biochemical process it is not spiritual is fallacious logic. I'm not sure I get what you're saying here, Rule. How can provable scientific theory be any more fallacious than spiritual (and unprovable) opinion? Everybody wants a little control in their lives - it's why we make attributions and hold on to comforting beliefs / faith. But, to me, hanging on to a spiritual belief and living as though the spirit will live forever and ever negates our humanity (in my opinion, of course). We don't live as fully as we could, squandering what might be a finite amount of time.

Rule -> RE: Dying and Coming back~~ (4/30/2008 3:32:03 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: batshalom How can provable scientific theory be any more fallacious than spiritual (and unprovable) opinion? When it adresses an issue that it is not qualified to address. Science is only valid when applied to our physical and physically causal universe. It is not valid when it concerns the non-physical and non-causal interaction between our universe and the Divine that is outside our universe. quote: ORIGINAL: batshalom Everybody wants a little control in their lives - it's why we make attributions and hold on to comforting beliefs / faith. But, to me, hanging on to a spiritual belief and living as though the spirit will live forever and ever negates our humanity (in my opinion, of course). We don't live as fully as we could, squandering what might be a finite amount of time. According to Egyptian mythology some "souls" get send to the wasteland, where they are devoured by the beast of the sands. Others, I suspect, have their minds ripped appart and are reborn as thousands of maggots. Never had good or bad fortune, eh?

batshalom -> RE: Dying and Coming back~~ (4/30/2008 5:47:29 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rule quote: ORIGINAL: batshalom How can provable scientific theory be any more fallacious than spiritual (and unprovable) opinion? When it adresses an issue that it is not qualified to address. Science is only valid when applied to our physical and physically causal universe. It is not valid when it concerns the non-physical and non-causal interaction between our universe and the Divine that is outside our universe. Science doesn't try to address things that cannot be tested or falsified. No scientist would attempt to try to prove or disprove anything spiritual any more than he or she would try to prove or disprove the existence of santa claus - it falls outside the realm of science. My point is that science is science (and provable) and faith is faith. Science doesn't have to prove or disprove anyone's spirituality because that's what faith is for: taking something that is NOT provable and believing it anyway. Everyone hangs his or her hat on whichever seems the better personal choice. quote: ORIGINAL: Rule According to Egyptian mythology some "souls" get send to the wasteland, where they are devoured by the beast of the sands. Yes. The ancient egyptians also breathed a human headed bird (representing the soul / breath of life), Ba, back into the body during their burial ceremonies. quote: ORIGINAL: Rule Others, I suspect, have their minds ripped appart and are reborn as thousands of maggots. come up with some empirical evidence and I'll help you research it. It would be an interesting study. quote: ORIGINAL: Rule Never had good or bad fortune, eh? Err ... well ... I'm not sure what you're getting at - it seems more snide than a simple general question but I'll be darned if I know what you mean precisely, so I'll give you a simple general answer. Yes, I've had good and bad fortune, but most likely no more and no less than anyone else.

Rule -> RE: Dying and Coming back~~ (5/1/2008 1:43:28 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: batshalom Science doesn't try to address things that cannot be tested or falsified. No scientist would attempt to try to prove or disprove anything spiritual any more than he or she would try to prove or disprove the existence of santa claus - it falls outside the realm of science. Thus when asserting that because some experience is the result of a physical / biochemical process it is not spiritual, is not a scientific conclusion and is fallacious logic. quote: ORIGINAL: batshalom Science doesn't have to prove or disprove anyone's spirituality because that's what faith is for: taking something that is NOT provable and believing it anyway. Everyone hangs his or her hat on whichever seems the better personal choice. I was not discussing faith (as in the sense of believing), but spirituality. There is a difference. In any case it is not an either or question. The universe functions both ways: physical as in limited to the universe and spiritual as including both the universe and the Divine outside the universe. It is called redundancy. Some people are deficient in their ability to relate to one of those perspectives, but because of the inbuild redundancy are still able to function by relating to the other perspective. Other people do not have such a deficiency and are able to relate to both perspectives. quote: ORIGINAL: batshalom The ancient egyptians also breathed a human headed bird (representing the soul / breath of life), Ba, back into the body during their burial ceremonies. A magic ritual intended to ensure and safeguard the afterlife of that deceased person. Symbolic language in which the human head represents the noun and the bird the adjective: the flying human soul. You do not really believe that they put a soul back into a corpse, do you? quote: ORIGINAL: batshalom come up with some empirical evidence and I'll help you research it. It would be an interesting study. Cloning is a principle that pervades this holographic, fractal universe. It is a smart engineering strategy that therefore may be extrapolated to the spiritual. quote: ORIGINAL: batshalom I'm not sure what you're getting at - it seems more snide than a simple general question Not at all. Spirituality must be experienced and one way of doing so is through having good and bad fortune and recognizing the causal spiritual connection between the resulting - apparently random - event and the causative spiritual desire. Therefore, someone who has never experienced either good or bad fortune has less opportunity to become spiritually aware.

batshalom -> RE: Dying and Coming back~~ (5/1/2008 5:22:17 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: Rule Thus when asserting that because some experience is the result of a physical / biochemical process it is not spiritual, is not a scientific conclusion and is fallacious logic. So then it stands to reason to say that an experience that is outside the human realm of understanding because it is spiritual and not a simple biological / biochemical process is just as fallacious. No one can prove or disprove the spirituality of any event. One can prove and disprove the existence or absence of a purely scientific one. All I am saying is that faith requires only faith while science requires proof. Faith, for me, is the more difficult of the two, knowing what I know about science. And let's not even get started on the topic of love, what it is, why it is, and how it happens (although it is an interesting and highly volatile conversation). quote: ORIGINAL: Rule I was not discussing faith (as in the sense of believing), but spirituality. There is a difference. Perhaps you can tell me the difference as you see it. We might be misunderstanding each other entirely, with you talking about apples and me talking about alligators. quote: ORIGINAL: Rule In any case it is not an either or question. The universe functions both ways: physical as in limited to the universe and spiritual as including both the universe and the Divine outside the universe. It is called redundancy. Some people are deficient in their ability to relate to one of those perspectives, but because of the inbuild redundancy are still able to function by relating to the other perspective. Other people do not have such a deficiency and are able to relate to both perspectives. So you are saying that because I am more of a scientist and skeptic than a believer in something that is not provable, then I (and others who feel the same way) am deficient? Just because I don't believe something doesn't mean I am incapable of giving it a great deal of thought. In fact, I was much more spiritual not so very long ago ... but when seemingly divine and spiritual phenomena can be explained in a simpler and more rational way, and knowing the best explanations are usually the most parsimonious ones, I cast my lot with the more physical and rational explanations because the experiences that we like to think of as divine (the ones at issue here, I mean) can be replicated in a lab. quote: ORIGINAL: Rule A magic ritual intended to ensure and safeguard the afterlife of that deceased person. Symbolic language in which the human head represents the noun and the bird the adjective: the flying human soul. You do not really believe that they put a soul back into a corpse, do you? No. It was in response to something you framed as an argument for your position of spirituality. "According to Egyptian mythology some "souls" get send to the wasteland, where they are devoured by the beast of the sands. " I was pointing out that there is a plausibility problem in what the ancient egyptians believed if you were going to use their beliefs in your defense of your position. quote: ORIGINAL: Rule Cloning is a principle that pervades this holographic, fractal universe. It is a smart engineering strategy that therefore may be extrapolated to the spiritual. Cloning is an understanding of science, to my way of thinking, although I do welcome you to opine. You're an interesting fellow and I am enjoying the conversation. quote: ORIGINAL: Rule Not at all. Spirituality must be experienced and one way of doing so is through having good and bad fortune and recognizing the causal spiritual connection between the resulting - apparently random - event and the causative spiritual desire. Therefore, someone who has never experienced either good or bad fortune has less opportunity to become spiritually aware. But who hasn't experienced good and bad fortune? It's not rare. It is so common, in fact, that it's not noticed unless it's personal (and by that I mean experienced by the self or by a member of one's ingroups). Good and bad fortune isn't even strictly human - dogs, trees, flowers, germs, all have good and bad fortune. I fail to see what spirituality has to do with it at all.

meatcleaver -> RE: Dying and Coming back~~ (5/1/2008 6:51:31 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: batshalom quote: ORIGINAL: Rule In any case it is not an either or question. The universe functions both ways: physical as in limited to the universe and spiritual as including both the universe and the Divine outside the universe. It is called redundancy. Some people are deficient in their ability to relate to one of those perspectives, but because of the inbuild redundancy are still able to function by relating to the other perspective. Other people do not have such a deficiency and are able to relate to both perspectives. So you are saying that because I am more of a scientist and skeptic than a believer in something that is not provable, then I (and others who feel the same way) am deficient? That's Rule's answer to everything he says and can't prove. Personally I'll believe in life after death when someone comes back to life after a ten years and they have to be dug up. The more we learn about our brain, the more we appear to be our brain but we'll see what knowledge the future holds. I think people believe in life after death because they can't come to terms with the fact that what we are experiencing is as good as it gets.

EXODUS1 -> RE: Dying and Coming back~~ (5/1/2008 9:05:38 AM)
quote: "I'd rather live as if there was a God and find out that there isn't.. than to live as if there is no God and find out there is". For me.. this holds the same for an afterlife :) These words are 2 simple.... what would anybody have to lose by these words.. EXODUS1[sm=agree.gif]

Rule -> RE: Dying and Coming back~~ (5/1/2008 9:06:22 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: batshalom So then it stands to reason to say that an experience that is outside the human realm of understanding because it is spiritual and not a simple biological / biochemical process is just as fallacious. What is just as fallacious? Saying "that an experience that is outside the human realm of understanding because it is spiritual and not a simple biological / biochemical process"? The sentence makes more sense if the word that I made bold is deleted. I will answer from that presumption. Spiritual experiences are not outside the human realm of understanding - as they can be investigated and discussed by spiritually aware people - but they are beyond the realm of physical science. quote: ORIGINAL: batshalom No one can prove or disprove the spirituality of any event. Depends on the event, does it not? There is such a thing as reproducibility. When two or more people have similar experiences they may be compared and hypotheses as to their significance may be formulated. quote: ORIGINAL: batshalom One can prove and disprove the existence or absence of a purely scientific one. That also depends on the event. I am not much of a mathematician, but I have been told that they have whole hosts of theorems that may never be proven. quote: ORIGINAL: batshalom All I am saying is that faith requires only faith while science requires proof. What do you mean by faith? I have no idea what you are talking about. Do you? Generally people are too dumb to accept any revelation unless they can stick their fingers in the wounds; isn't that precisely what the - presumably very myopic - Thomas did when he was confronted with the resurrected Jesus? So, yes, spiritually aware people and - another class entirely - religious people very much insist on proof. quote: ORIGINAL: batshalom Faith, for me, is the more difficult of the two, knowing what I know about science. Again, I have no idea what you mean by the concept faith. Do you? quote: ORIGINAL: batshalom And let's not even get started on the topic of love, what it is, why it is, and how it happens (although it is an interesting and highly volatile conversation). That is an excellent idea: let's not get started on that topic. (Why bring it up at all?)

Rule -> RE: Dying and Coming back~~ (5/1/2008 9:38:02 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: batshalom quote: ORIGINAL: Rule I was not discussing faith (as in the sense of believing), but spirituality. There is a difference. Perhaps you can tell me the difference as you see it. We might be misunderstanding each other entirely, with you talking about apples and me talking about alligators. Having faith as in the sense of believing is an action, like having faith / believing that a loved one will return home. Being spiritually aware is either being conscious of the apparently physically non-causal intervention of the Divine in responding to this faith and having the loved one return home, or being directly aware of the Divine - often described as a warmth inside.

Rule -> RE: Dying and Coming back~~ (5/1/2008 10:27:14 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: batshalom So you are saying that because I am more of a scientist and skeptic than a believer in something that is not provable, then I (and others who feel the same way) am deficient? I am saying that someone who is not spiritually aware is deficient in being spiritually aware. Having a proclivity for science and skepsis has nothing to do with it. quote: ORIGINAL: batshalom Just because I don't believe something doesn't mean I am incapable of giving it a great deal of thought. Just because someone is deaf does not mean that he cannot discuss sound in depth. quote: ORIGINAL: batshalom In fact, I was much more spiritual not so very long ago ... How can someone be spiritual while lacking spiritual awareness? quote: ORIGINAL: batshalom but when seemingly divine and spiritual phenomena can be explained in a simpler and more rational way, and knowing the best explanations are usually the most parsimonious ones, I cast my lot with the more physical and rational explanations because the experiences that we like to think of as divine (the ones at issue here, I mean) can be replicated in a lab. Near death experiences, you mean. You still do not comprehend the remark I made about fallacious logic, do you?

Rule -> RE: Dying and Coming back~~ (5/1/2008 11:08:47 AM)
quote: ORIGINAL: batshalom It was in response to something you framed as an argument for your position of spirituality. "According to Egyptian mythology some "souls" get send to the wasteland, where they are devoured by the beast of the sands". quote: ORIGINAL: Rule quote: ORIGINAL: batshalom hanging on to a spiritual belief and living as though the spirit will live forever and ever negates our humanity. According to Egyptian mythology some "souls" get send to the wasteland, where they are devoured by the beast of the sands. Others, I suspect, have their minds ripped appart and are reborn as thousands of maggots. My response was to the words that here I made bold. quote: ORIGINAL: batshalom I was pointing out that there is a plausibility problem in what the ancient egyptians believed if you were going to use their beliefs in your defense of your position. What plausibility problem? I got the impression that you did not comprehend the spiritual significance of the Egyptian burial ritual. In any case, the Egyptians legitimately extrapolated from their experience of life to the afterlife. In turn we may legitimately do a reverse extrapolation, implying that in their time there was an ethical "beast" of the sands that devoured bad people only.

subtee -> RE: Dying and Coming back~~ (5/1/2008 11:29:48 AM)
Dying and Coming back~~ Do you think this could work for Domiguy?

meatcleaver -> RE: Dying and Coming back~~ (5/1/2008 12:05:36 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EXODUS1 quote: "I'd rather live as if there was a God and find out that there isn't.. than to live as if there is no God and find out there is". For me.. this holds the same for an afterlife :) These words are 2 simple.... what would anybody have to lose by these words.. EXODUS1[sm=agree.gif] Totally meaningless. Anyway, human values appear to be genetically inherited, since they appear to cross all human cultures regardless of belief or none belief, rather than influenced by a belief in god. Assuming there is a god, no doubt he/she/it would be able to look in your mind and know you are trying to fool yourself rather than using the intelligence he/she/it gave you. Putting myself in gods position I would be pretty well disappointed that people I gave brains to decided not to use them. Hmm, but them I'm not a wrathful, vengeful, sadistic, egotistical god who demands the people I cruelly torture and humiliate praise me for being a loving benevolent god that god obviously isn't.

EXODUS1 -> RE: Dying and Coming back~~ (5/1/2008 1:12:35 PM)
Totally meaningless. quote: Anyway, human values appear to be genetically inherited, since they appear to cross all human cultures regardless of belief or none belief, rather than influenced by a belief in god. Assuming there is a god, no doubt he/she/it would be able to look in your mind and know you are trying to fool yourself rather than using the intelligence he/she/it gave you. Putting myself in gods position I would be pretty well disappointed that people I gave brains to decided not to use them. Hmm, but them I'm not a wrathful, vengeful, sadistic, egotistical god who demands the people I cruelly torture and humiliate praise me for being a loving benevolent god that god obviously isn't. Meatcleaver Why Just because You Refuse to Believe what has been known all along. EXODUS1[sm=agree.gif]

meatcleaver -> RE: Dying and Coming back~~ (5/1/2008 1:14:36 PM)
That god is really Micky Mouse?

Rule -> RE: Dying and Coming back~~ (5/1/2008 3:24:21 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: batshalom Cloning is an understanding of science What do you mean by that? quote: ORIGINAL: batshalom I do welcome you to opine. What do you mean by that? Are you saying "tell me about it"? If you have any knowledge about science, you ought to be able to provide half a dozen generic examples yourself, ranging from biology to astronomy and mathematics.

philosophy -> RE: Dying and Coming back~~ (5/1/2008 3:27:58 PM)
quote: ORIGINAL: EXODUS1 Why Just because You Refuse to Believe what has been known all along. .......sorry, but you're not making a lot of sense. Ae you seriously suggesting that belief in God is genetic? Inevitable? Compulsory? What, exactly, is your thesis? Oh, and which God, Goddess, or Pantheon are you referring to?

EXODUS1 -> RE: Dying and Coming back~~ (5/1/2008 9:59:03 PM)
quote: That god is really Micky Mouse? MeatCleaver What a shame, Your fate has already been sealed![8\|] quote: "You've been blinded, but it ain't been by the light." EXODUS1[sm=agree.gif]

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