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RE: Female As Whore - 4/29/2008 5:53:39 PM   
AquaticSub


Posts: 14867
Joined: 12/27/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FlamingRedhead

Anyway, I think she is referring to the prevalence of vanilla men on sites such as this thinking that submissives are "whores" who are just begging to be used and abused.  If that's why they are here, they are not dominants but horny vanilla men looking for an easy lay by posing as something they're not.


"Any man who can get off for more than a minute on the erotic image of female as whore is not a dominant. That image is a pure vanilla fantasy that reduces the female to an object of masterbation."

I don't see any qualifiers there so, in my opinion, it's BS. I'd also call someone thinking that all women are whores BS. She's saying, pretty clearly, that if this is your kink, you are not a dominant.

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(in reply to FlamingRedhead)
Profile   Post #: 21
RE: Female As Whore - 4/29/2008 6:13:07 PM   
ResidentSadist


Posts: 12580
Joined: 2/11/2007
From: a mean old Daddy, but I like you - Joni Mitchell
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mercnbeth
quote:

how do you walk the line between humiliation and degradation when using words like "whore" and "slut" to address your submissive?
Easy - I preface any such reference with 'MY'.

Well done. 

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RE: Female As Whore - 4/29/2008 7:47:13 PM   
LuckyAlbatross


Posts: 19224
Joined: 10/25/2005
Status: offline 		I simply show it in my actions.  If all you treat them IS as a whore or slut for sex, then obviously that's what the relationship is and how you are to be used.

I do not need "my" to personalize it and make it an intimate act- I am a whore and a slut, that's not degrading or humiliating for me at all.

But if I were to get into a relationship expecting a full experience of someone and all they ever wanted was the sex and kink, then obviously that's all it is.  The problem is really a mis match of expectations and honesty.

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RE: Female As Whore - 4/29/2008 8:03:37 PM   
Kana


Posts: 6676
Joined: 10/24/2006
Status: offline 		Like everything else in life
It all depends on the circumstances.
I will call her a slut when I want to
but not at the family Christmas dinner table.

I think the question is what are the motives
is it meant as an affection
a term of endearment
a command putting you in your place
to objectify and humiliate (in that oh so good way)
or is it meant to hurt and scar.
thats the key for me.

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 24
RE: Female As Whore - 4/29/2008 8:22:25 PM   
Leatherist


Posts: 5149
Joined: 12/11/2007
Status: offline 		By dismissing the double standard of judeo christianity as exactly what it is. A religion that used god as an excuse to control people and thier sexual expression.
 
 I never use expressions like whore or slut. Because that only feeds back to the whole misogynist male crap. I see sexuality as a beautiful thing,no t something dirty or disgusting that needs to be kept hidden away n the dark.
 
 I spit in the face of duality and convention, of outmoded tradition and programming. People are what they are, animals. I don't try to make us more than that.
 
 I don't look at us as better, only different. When you realize where the sickness that breeds shame and humiliation comes from.....When you NAME it as such, and reject it-you find your freedom.

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RE: Female As Whore - 4/29/2008 9:15:58 PM   
SailingBum


Posts: 3225
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Sailin the stormy sea
Status: offline 		dunno what the problem is???  I've been known to use the word fuck hole without issue

BadOne

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Profile   Post #: 26
RE: Female As Whore - 4/29/2008 10:01:01 PM   
ownedgirlie


Posts: 9184
Joined: 2/5/2006
Status: offline 		I am my Master's personal whore and slut and....anything else.  So when he says, "You are such a whore" I know which context he means that in.  And he usually says it as a result of something I'm doing that turns him on.  My response to those words is to whimper or moan, or to laugh and remind him that he loves that.

I disagree with quote used in the OP.  I can certainly be an object of his masturbation if he wishes (although he'd rather use me to masturbate in).  There are times when I am reduced to a dehumanized object, and not just in "role play."  If he wants me to feel that way, then I feel that way.  When he feels the time is right, he brings me back around, if I need help in doing so.  Sometimes he leaves it up to my own strength to find my way back from such use.

Overall, I know he values me and cares about me.   But my submission to him isn't contingent on whether he cares about me or not.  While this isn't everyone's cup of java, it certainly works for some.  And to say that any man who pleases himself with erotic images of females is not dominant is, in my opinion, bullshit.

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Profile   Post #: 27
RE: Female As Whore - 4/29/2008 10:36:59 PM   
MadRabbit


Posts: 3460
Joined: 8/9/2006
Status: offline 		Well, first, I tend to disagree with Mrs. Polly in her statement, given that I can get off for more than one minute on the erotic fantasy of dehumanizing a woman into a whore and I have been quite successful in regards to my power based relationships.

However, I think what she is really getting at (and poorly communicating) is the difference between someone who literally views submissives in the "whore" perspective as opposed to a respectful human beings with feelings, wants and needs.

Viewing your partners through those dark glasses is a bit different than simply indulging in the erotic mental fantasy of the "whore".

Hell, it's a great fucking fantasy.

Back to the question presented, it's never been an issue with me, because I don't have that kind of mentality or attitude. The fact that I do care about them on a personal level is demonstrated by my actions.

I also agree with the other posters. The emphasis on the word "MY" does make a word of difference.

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RE: Female As Whore - 4/30/2008 4:47:03 AM   
RavenMuse


Posts: 4030
Joined: 1/23/2006
Status: offline 		Firstly, the quoted part is fataly flawed and even deceptive in that, IMO it presents a vanilla persepctive itself which is clearly shown if you present the same argument in a slightly different context... "If a man can enjoy hitting a woman... he isn't a Dominant, he is an abuser/masoginist"....Most here, in that context can see it as a common vanilla PoV on what We do, yet it is in effect the same generic bullshit out-of-context sweeping statement as the 'argument' presented in the quote.

Objectification and humiliation are aspects of MANY successful relationships within WIITWD. Key word:'aspects'... in a relationship people relate on a whole host of levels, the relationship stays successful if those differing aspects stay balanced enough to address all the needs of everyone IN the relationship.

My girl is My possession, I Own her, she is My threehole fucktoy that I USE for My satisfaction and amusement.

.... she is ALSO Daddys special little girl, cared for, protected, guided, read storys too, etc.

.... she is the painslut that both fears and desires the times the playful sadistic side of Me is to the fore. Coldly ripping her reactions from her, reveling in her screams and tears.

.... also My partner who's input and insight is listened to, valued, MUTUALY supportive....

And much more besides.

If any of the many aspects, the different strings that tie us together where to get out of balance, the result would weaken the relationship as a whole... Strings is a good annalogy for those aspects, strings on an instrument, sometimes playing but a single note, other times a beatuiful chord... a melody that is the relationship... break just one string and  the music is flawed, incomplete.

< Message edited by RavenMuse -- 4/30/2008 4:56:56 AM >

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(in reply to FlamingRedhead)
Profile   Post #: 29
RE: Female As Whore - 4/30/2008 6:30:02 AM   
Dnomyar


Posts: 7933
Joined: 6/27/2005
Status: offline 		Im not into name calling during sex unless asked to. Besides it is not polite to talk with your mouth full. Other than that a woman would really have to piss me off to call her a name.

(in reply to batshalom)
Profile   Post #: 30
RE: Female As Whore - 4/30/2008 6:33:49 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline 		LA,

quote:

  I am a whore and a slut, that's not degrading or humiliating for me at all.


How much?

(in reply to LuckyAlbatross)
Profile   Post #: 31
RE: Female As Whore - 4/30/2008 7:17:20 AM   
FlamingRedhead


Posts: 451
Joined: 3/4/2007
From: Georgia
Status: offline 		However poorly the original statement was worded, I have enjoyed reading everyone's responses.  It was just something to ponder since I've been on the receiving end of the erotic fantasy of female as whore, which is harmless and fun, as well as the literal view that all women are essentially whores and should be treated as such.....from the guy who thinks you owe him something for dinner to the guy who gives you gas money because you're financially strapped and "jokingly" says it's for services rendered.  Some days, it feels like I'm fighting a loosing battle trying to find "the one," but some of you have restored what little faith I have left.
 
Oh, goody!  I'm in the fourth stage of breakup grieving....rage.  heh heh

_____________________________

I'm so addicted to
All the things you do
When you're going down on me
In between the sheets
Or the sound you make
With every breath you take
It's unlike anything
When you're loving me

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Profile   Post #: 32
RE: Female As Whore - 4/30/2008 8:49:13 AM   
variation30


Posts: 1190
Joined: 12/1/2007
From: Alabama
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FlamingRedhead

What I don't love is being told you really want to see me and then finding you in bed asleep after driving for an hour and a half or not driving over there and being told that you're disappointed I didn't want to come over and get fucked.


hell, after driving an hour and a half thinking I was going to get laid, I'd be disappointed too.

it sounds as if the two of you are not compatible at all.


_____________________________

all the good ones are collared or lesbians.

or old.

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Profile   Post #: 33
RE: Female As Whore - 4/30/2008 9:50:34 AM   
SeedDivinus


Posts: 4
Joined: 4/17/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FlamingRedhead

To all the successful dominants, how do you walk the line between humiliation and degradation when using words like "whore" and "slut" to address your submissive? My last dominant wasn't particularly successful since I'm no longer with him. I went from feeling like his treasure to feeling like his skanky booty call. What lengths do you go to in a relationship or a session to ensure that your submissive partner doesn't begin to believe that's all she/he is to you, especially when many people are struggling with self-esteem issues? I know my self-worth although it can be a struggle at times, which is part of the reason I got out of the relationship, but I also love humiliation. I'm interested to find out how others are able to balance showing respect and making your submissive a wanton harlot.


Regarding the line between degradation and humiliation, it's hard to clearly see where it really begins and ends.

When someone says they like humiliation, however, I tend to think they're really saying, "I like humiliation I'm comfortable with"—which isn't really humiliation at all, but role play. Degradation seems a simpler concept to me. It seems easier to degrade than humiliate the willing.

To answer your question, the maturity and positive reinforcement of the dominant Male goes miles in helping a girl embrace being a "wanton harlot", as you put it. Respect for the submissive female on the other hand is a moot and even irrelevant concept for many, particularly if the relational structure has evolved to Master and slave.



< Message edited by SeedDivinus -- 4/30/2008 10:49:43 AM >

(in reply to FlamingRedhead)
Profile   Post #: 34
RE: Female As Whore - 4/30/2008 10:19:28 AM   
variation30


Posts: 1190
Joined: 12/1/2007
From: Alabama
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: kinkypuppy2

The biggest difference is in using those terms as prase or as a put down.

uusing them in a positive light allows them to be positive


no baby, I didn't call you a cum-gagging whore, I called you a cum-gagging whore.

quote:

"Any man who can get off for more than a minute on the erotic image of female as whore is not a dominant. That image is a pure vanilla fantasy that reduces the female to an object of masterbation. The whole idea of it is to dehumanize the object, so that the male has nothing to be concerned about.  He doesn't have to think, to understand, to be skillful, to feel, to experience any degree of intimacy apart from the meeting of genitals, to sustain a relationship."  Qualities of a Successful Dominant by Polly Peachum


um...I can get off for much more than a minute on the erotic image of a female as a whore. I suppose I am not dominant (which as just as well, as I haven't been a member of the club long enough to get my badge and my autographed copy of 'the old gaurd's almanac'). I am a bit confused as to what exactly miss polly peachum is referring to when she uses the word 'whore'. is she talking about a woman who is objectified in a sexual manner, or is she talking about a woman who is objectified in a sexual manner who is also objectifying the jon (or is it john?) in another manner? I work under the ethics that  you inevitably 'objectify' everyone. today I'll go to class. In most cases, I could not care less about my professor's inner feelings and hopes and dreams. I just want a grade. I'm going to use him for his knowledge and he's going to use me because that's how he gets a pay check. my car needs a tune-up, am I objectifying the mechanic if I don't ask him about his day and how he's feeling before I use him for his services? is he objectifying me by not spooning me before accepting my debit card?

I've never understood how objectification is an objectively bad thing. what if the female (or male) only wants to be used as an object of masturbation. is the dom unsuccessful by giving his sub exactly what she wants? is it, as miss polly proudly boasts, unfitting behavior for a dom? a cursory glance at these boards will quickly show you how varied passionate and compassionate desires can be. I fail to see how anyone, even a celebrated, published mistress extraordinaire, can lay down concrete boundaries of success and failure. I would even go so far as to say that there are relationships based upon humiliation and the meeting of the genitals that are quite successful. they may be a minority, but I'm positive they exist.

I am curious as to this author's opinion about males being treated as whores and objects of masturbation. it does not strike me as a vanilla female's fantasies (at least according to what little I know of popular vanilla female fantasies) and I wonder if this has a validity that female degradation does not have.

but now that that is out of the way...I'll get to your post - with the disclaimer that I am not a successful dominant as I have not met the appropriate requirements.

quote:

To all the successful dominants, how do you walk the line between humiliation and degradation when using words like "whore" and "slut" to address your submissive?  My last dominant wasn't particularly successful since I'm no longer with him.


you can't know where that line is. for one, using whore and slut or pig or nigger or any other charged word is obviously going to have varied responses based upon the individual. these words carry their own meanings to people with different backgrounds. one person may equate being called a filthy slut in a demeaning tone as something exciting, to another it might remind them of past abuse.  I had a playmate that was into being slapped and another who was horribly offended by it as it reminded her of her mother being beaten by her father. I don't walk the line. there are things that make her comfortable, things that turn her on, and things that reduce her to a blubbering, sobbing mess. I tend to avoid the latter category as it is not something that either of us enjoy. if there is any chance what I am about to do will turn the mood sour, I don't do it. things are a bit different for me as I've never been in what I would call a D/s relationship with qualities of success. I've only been in vanilla relationships with a bit of kink and a mild taste of submission. I'd like to be in a relationship that was within the D/s dynamic and is fulfilling but where I am from, there is a very small population of both submissive women and fulfilling women . trying to find one who is both is seeming rather impossible right now (which is fine, as I have more important things to worry about).

"I went from feeling like his treasure to feeling like his skanky booty call.  What lengths do you go to in a relationship or a session to ensure that your submissive partner doesn't begin to believe that's all she/he is to you, especially when many people are struggling with self-esteem issues?"

perhaps it was just a bit of miscommunication? just because he wants something physical often and pouts and complains when he doesn't get it does not necessarily mean he doesn't care for you, it just means he has temper tantrums. when dealing with rather emotionally charged situations (like a lot of sessions or relationships) you really can't leave room for misjudging another person's emotions. sometimes I can be a little too reserved and people confuse that with being dissatisfied, apathetic, or even smug. I'd hate for that misinterpretation to ruin a relationship because we had poor communication. but when it comes to ensuring that partners dont' get the wrong idea...
as far as you are concerned, in the future, just air your grievences before making assumptions.
as far as I'm concerned, if I do anything that I feel made her uncomfortable, I'm sure to ask her about it to make sure that we won't have any dissonance in the future.

"I know my self-worth although it can be a struggle at times, which is part of the reason I got out of the relationship, but I also love humiliation."

um...I guess if you really like being humiliated, then humiliation shouldn't affect your self-worth. maybe you aren't completely sold on humiliation and should draw some boundaries for what you like and don't like so that your future partners know what you are looking for and if you will be able to provide what the other person wants.

"I'm interested to find out how others are able to balance showing respect and making your submissive a wanton harlot."

the only way I can imagine making a submissive a wanton harlot is if she was one or wanted to be one. if she wasn't comfortable with that type of humiliation or objectification or anything else, I don't think I'd be a very successful dom by strongarming her into something she is not comfortable with and really has no desire to be comfortable with.


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all the good ones are collared or lesbians.

or old.

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Profile   Post #: 35
RE: Female As Whore - 4/30/2008 10:34:10 AM   
variation30


Posts: 1190
Joined: 12/1/2007
From: Alabama
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I simply show it in my actions.  If all you treat them IS as a whore or slut for sex, then obviously that's what the relationship is and how you are to be used.

I do not need "my" to personalize it and make it an intimate act- I am a whore and a slut, that's not degrading or humiliating for me at all.

But if I were to get into a relationship expecting a full experience of someone and all they ever wanted was the sex and kink, then obviously that's all it is.  The problem is really a mis match of expectations and honesty.


I would prefer to be in a relationship with someone who shared a similar mindset. some people don't have it,some people do. On the surface, I see the difference that calling someone 'my slut' makes...but it's such a superficial difference. would the sub be worthy of less respect if she was not the slut that I happened to have in my possession at this particular moment in time, or if she were the slut that happened to be in someone else's possession at a particular moment in time, or if she were a slut that happened to be in noone's possession? of course not. it all sounds silly to me. if I were called dominant, I wouldn't get upset if it wasn't prefaced with a certain adjective as I consider myself dominant. I would expect a woman who was actually into humiliation to have a similar mindset.

but then again, I doubt there are very few people who enjoy humiliation or assume their role as sincerely as you do, so I predict I'll have to make the 'my' concession sometime in the future.


_____________________________

all the good ones are collared or lesbians.

or old.

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Profile   Post #: 36
RE: Female As Whore - 4/30/2008 11:00:36 AM   
SimplyMichael


Posts: 7229
Joined: 1/7/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: variation30

quote:

ORIGINAL: LuckyAlbatross

I simply show it in my actions.  If all you treat them IS as a whore or slut for sex, then obviously that's what the relationship is and how you are to be used.

I do not need "my" to personalize it and make it an intimate act- I am a whore and a slut, that's not degrading or humiliating for me at all.

But if I were to get into a relationship expecting a full experience of someone and all they ever wanted was the sex and kink, then obviously that's all it is.  The problem is really a mis match of expectations and honesty.


I would prefer to be in a relationship with someone who shared a similar mindset. some people don't have it,some people do. On the surface, I see the difference that calling someone 'my slut' makes...but it's such a superficial difference. would the sub be worthy of less respect if she was not the slut that I happened to have in my possession at this particular moment in time, or if she were the slut that happened to be in someone else's possession at a particular moment in time, or if she were a slut that happened to be in noone's possession? of course not. it all sounds silly to me. if I were called dominant, I wouldn't get upset if it wasn't prefaced with a certain adjective as I consider myself dominant. I would expect a woman who was actually into humiliation to have a similar mindset.

but then again, I doubt there are very few people who enjoy humiliation or assume their role as sincerely as you do, so I predict I'll have to make the 'my' concession sometime in the future.


(in reply to variation30)
Profile   Post #: 37
RE: Female As Whore - 4/30/2008 11:11:53 AM   
abcbsex


Posts: 478
Joined: 3/29/2008
Status: offline 		I don't have much to offer to this discussion that hasn't already been said but I just wanted to let you know that whenever I read the thread title in the list I think, "YES PLEASE!"

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but it needed to be at least.... four times bigger.


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Profile   Post #: 38
RE: Female As Whore - 4/30/2008 12:05:05 PM   
FlamingRedhead


Posts: 451
Joined: 3/4/2007
From: Georgia
Status: offline 		Objectification, humiliation and degradation are all okay if they make you feel okay, or maybe it would be better to say they're all okay as long as you like not feeling okay.  Damn.  Y'all know what I mean!  There's a difference in putting someone down to hurt their feelings and putting someone down to turn them on.  I think we've established this point.
 
quote:

perhaps it was just a bit of miscommunication?  just because he wants something physical often and pouts and complains when he doesn't get it does not necessarily mean he doesn't care for you, it just means he has temper tantrums. as far as you are concerned, in the future, just air your grievences before making assumptions.


Not that I'm here for relationship advice (since none of my questions pertain directly to my past relationship but more of an interest in others' relationships while I regroup), but I'm a surprisingly intelligent person who doesn't often misunderstand what is being said and in what context.  His temper tantrums showed me a lot about him, i.e. that he's insecure, manipulative, mistrustful, lacks self-control and resorts to name calling rather than sticking to the issue at hand.  These are not traits of a successful dominant.  They are traits of a spoiled 3-year-old brat.  It's pretty hard to air grievances, though I did it anyway, when the person in question is dodging having any serious conversations by any and all means necessary, including forbidding me from emails, not answering the phone, and trying to make me set an appointment to talk at his leisure.  pppffftttt!
 
By the way, you could take your own advice about making assumptions.  Erotic humiliation has no effect on my self-esteem whatsoever.  I don't need "MY" in front of anything to make it okay.  I was asking how other people treat their submissives so that misunderstandings don't occur in a relationship or how they bring her back around, so to speak, if they're just playing.  I'm sorry if you didn't understand the questions.

_____________________________

I'm so addicted to
All the things you do
When you're going down on me
In between the sheets
Or the sound you make
With every breath you take
It's unlike anything
When you're loving me

(in reply to variation30)
Profile   Post #: 39
RE: Female As Whore - 4/30/2008 6:38:13 PM   
Estring


Posts: 3314
Joined: 1/1/2004
Status: offline 		I don't think you can have a balance if the self esteem issues are too great. I try to stay away from someone who shows those signs.
With my slave/wife, her being my slut is less about her worth than the fact that I own her and can do anything I want with her. That is the way I approach it with her, and it works just fine.

_____________________________

Boycott Whales!

(in reply to FlamingRedhead)
Profile   Post #: 40
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